Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Technical Discussion

Cesar Rubio · November 8th, 2006, 10:55 AM

Wayne:
Dont you think that a 1/3 sensor having a 5ym pixel size isn't to small for good low light performance?

Right now I am testing some AVT cameras.
The Marlin F-033c has a 1/2 Sony CCD and the cuality is decent for being a SD camera.

The Pike F-210 is an excellent HD camera but the price is over $5000.

http://www.goavt.com/product_pike.asp

Cesar Rubio.

Wayne Morellini · November 8th, 2006, 12:42 PM

That is the problem, the price is so high, before you even put the recording solution in.

I don't think that 1/3rd inch 5 micron sensors are necessarily too small with technology and performance like this, but the old saying applies, light, light, light. You would not expect much more low light performance than current low end cameras. In more expensive camera with faster lens, 1 Lux would be possible.

J.G. Beckman · November 17th, 2006, 07:39 PM

Cesar - Being very interested in the AVT cameras as well, I'm dying to see any images they can produce. I've been in touch with their sales dept., but my requests for clips or frames have yet failed to get a response. In your testing, have you produced anything at all that could be posted? Even individual jpegs of frames would be very appreciated.

Good luck with your project!

Wayne Morellini · November 30th, 2006, 01:21 AM

I have started a news thread on this new product, called PSI from Even Technologies. Should be of interest to those exploring codecs for their Digital Cinema Camera projects. If you look at the web link, it shows Windows Media 10, some version of Divx, and VP7 (from people that developed vp3 used in Ogg video codec, but not version 8) all outdoing h264 for web streaming. As usual, all these sorts of tests depend on sample and setup used. They mention both software and hardware codecs becoming avail;able. So, unless they have some deal for custom silicon, it might even be an FPGA, which is of interest to some of our members.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=80652

It is a big fuss, the area of alternative video codecs is underdeveloped in performance, and few are standouts. Some alternative codecs offer similar performance at much lower processing cost.

J.G. Beckman · December 26th, 2006, 10:01 PM

I've taken a few steps toward a machine-vision solution, but my knowledge is so rudimentary, I don't feel I'm ready to enter the discussion, even with questions. My little firewire Point Grey Flea was so plug-and-play easy, I think it got me a bit initially overconfident. Recently I acquired a bayer 2/3" camera, but it's LVDS, and suddenly me and my Mac are a ball in tall weeds.

Igor Babic · January 11th, 2007, 09:56 AM

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2...howtopic=19400

J.G. Beckman

Cesar has some AVT pictures on his site...

Dennis Hingsberg · January 15th, 2007, 06:59 PM

Wayne, in your vast research on CMOS sensors from a variety of manufacturers - have you come across any offering 1" inch sensors at all?

Wayne Morellini · January 21st, 2007, 11:31 AM

Back from break.

Has this thread been clipped? I would not mind knowing what that forum was, a good reference. I think an custom made/Digital cinema camera sub forum would be good here, there certainly have been enough threads to justify it.

Dennis,

Yes there are a number of 1 inch sensors. I forget where, apart from Kodak (CCD). It would be worth getting onto the sites of good sensor manufacturers and check, try Cirrus. I can't remember, but try Foveon as well, their sensors are starting to come out in box sensors. I mention this because X3 sensors are starting to hit the industrial sensor market (as posted previously).

Igor Babic · January 23rd, 2007, 05:50 PM

Its not much, but its like elphel 353.

http://www.matrix-vision.com/product...-m.php?lang=en

Dennis Hingsberg · January 23rd, 2007, 07:35 PM

Wayne - to your knowledge has anyone here built their own HD camera using a 1" ccd? This would be a very interesting prospect.

Wayne Morellini · January 25th, 2007, 05:31 AM

Igor, nice, what price?

Dennis, around here I can't remember, but I think there are a number of commercial machine vision cameras out there, it is a matter or searching. One place is the official website for the camera-link interface, that has an product search engine. Once you find some you can see if they have them for any other interface. I'm pretty sure I have listed it in this thread, with other lists of products. Come to think of it, have a look at the camera frame grabber packages from Epix, I think there might be one there, or at least an Kodak sensor.

Igor Babic · January 25th, 2007, 09:25 AM

Wayne, I dont know, will ask.

Here is some good links for MV hardware & cameras
http://vsd.pennnet.com/home.cfm

and here for prices
http://www.i-cubeinc.com/cameras-chart.htm

all Kodak 1" have price over 5000$

Epix use Micron and thats why they are about 1000$ for camera&grabber

Imperx & Pulnix use Kodak 1" and Imperx have 1920x1080 GigE version for 5245$ (my favorite, but too pricey). Ilunis looks great also.

Wayne Morellini · January 26th, 2007, 10:30 PM

I had a look.

There is an Kodak, but frame rate is low, and there is an Zoran.

http://www.epixinc.com/products/sv1310.htm

This is the only one with non micron sensor that has an appreciable frame rate:
http://www.epixinc.com/products/sv1281.htm

Sounds suspiciously familiar.

In the past, one of the problems has been that only an few 24fps capable cmos sensors were being sold in low cost cameras. But time has moved on, and there is presumably more sensors from different manufacturers that will do this, and it would be good if somebody could review whats available and post back?

Now, I would still say it is probably better for people to look at programming HD webcams, Mobiles, and Ultra-mobile PC's for HD video for an cheaper solution. An number of these might contain Micron quality sensors. The other problem is that some mainstream cameras now contain very nice sensors, and you can capture from them. Although these cameras can never match the bayer quality that we can capture, it is close enough to ask about the price of current machine vision solutions.

Forgot to mention:
I think the thing with the Epix cards was, that the free software did not record continuous live motion capture directly and continuously to disk. Even though the package is reasonably cheap, you then have to pay for the more expensive software version to get this feature. If people were interested it might be worth asking them about an special edition for Indies with motion capture.

Conservatively, look over in the main Elphel 333 thread for the projects based on the 353 camera, this is probably the cheapest boxed camera solution.

Igor Babic · January 27th, 2007, 04:52 AM

Those german guys are on to something...

http://www.kamera.abs-jena.de/produk...erentw_de.html

For those that dont undrestand german it sayz that thay have under development 5mpix camera with DVI and HDSDI out at HD video standard resolutions. It will have onboard processing and OSD info. Sound like something red....

BTW.
Has anybody seen this
http://www.arecontvision.com/products_3100.html
http://www.arecontvision.com/products_2100.html
http://www.arecontvision.com/products_100.html
They are like elphel also and are under 700$. Its surveillance stuff that looks like DV on steroids but worth looking...
There is lots of pictures and footage examples. I wish that every MV camera manufacturer have site like that.

Wayne Morellini · January 29th, 2007, 10:54 AM

Hmm, I need to look at these some over time, but looks like an interesting find.

But this is what I mean, if somebody had the time to look through all the sensors, all the security cameras, all the web cams, you might find more like this.

Thanks

Wayne.

November 30th, 2006, 01:21 AM	#484
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Better than h264 codec, even lossless I have started a news thread on this new product, called PSI from Even Technologies. Should be of interest to those exploring codecs for their Digital Cinema Camera projects. If you look at the web link, it shows Windows Media 10, some version of Divx, and VP7 (from people that developed vp3 used in Ogg video codec, but not version 8) all outdoing h264 for web streaming. As usual, all these sorts of tests depend on sample and setup used. They mention both software and hardware codecs becoming avail;able. So, unless they have some deal for custom silicon, it might even be an FPGA, which is of interest to some of our members. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=80652 It is a big fuss, the area of alternative video codecs is underdeveloped in performance, and few are standouts. Some alternative codecs offer similar performance at much lower processing cost.

January 11th, 2007, 09:56 AM	#486
Igor Babic Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 171	here is some interesting posts! http://www.cinematography.com/forum2...howtopic=19400 J.G. Beckman Cesar has some AVT pictures on his site...

January 15th, 2007, 06:59 PM	#487
Dennis Hingsberg Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,055	Wayne, in your vast research on CMOS sensors from a variety of manufacturers - have you come across any offering 1" inch sensors at all? __________________ Blog: www.hingsberg.com Ultimate Exposure Guides for FS5/F7S/F5/F55

January 23rd, 2007, 05:50 PM	#489
Igor Babic Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 171	Complete small form computer with HDD interface and camera Its not much, but its like elphel 353. http://www.matrix-vision.com/product...-m.php?lang=en

January 23rd, 2007, 07:35 PM	#490
Dennis Hingsberg Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,055	Wayne - to your knowledge has anyone here built their own HD camera using a 1" ccd? This would be a very interesting prospect. __________________ Blog: www.hingsberg.com Ultimate Exposure Guides for FS5/F7S/F5/F55

November 8th, 2006, 10:55 AM	#481
Cesar Rubio Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Guadalajara, Mexico Posts: 48	Wayne: Dont you think that a 1/3 sensor having a 5ym pixel size isn't to small for good low light performance? Right now I am testing some AVT cameras. The Marlin F-033c has a 1/2 Sony CCD and the cuality is decent for being a SD camera. The Pike F-210 is an excellent HD camera but the price is over $5000. http://www.goavt.com/product_pike.asp Cesar Rubio.

November 8th, 2006, 12:42 PM	#482
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	That is the problem, the price is so high, before you even put the recording solution in. I don't think that 1/3rd inch 5 micron sensors are necessarily too small with technology and performance like this, but the old saying applies, light, light, light. You would not expect much more low light performance than current low end cameras. In more expensive camera with faster lens, 1 Lux would be possible.

November 17th, 2006, 07:39 PM	#483
J.G. Beckman New Boot Join Date: May 2006 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 8	Cesar - Being very interested in the AVT cameras as well, I'm dying to see any images they can produce. I've been in touch with their sales dept., but my requests for clips or frames have yet failed to get a response. In your testing, have you produced anything at all that could be posted? Even individual jpegs of frames would be very appreciated. Good luck with your project!

December 26th, 2006, 10:01 PM	#485
J.G. Beckman New Boot Join Date: May 2006 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 8	I've taken a few steps toward a machine-vision solution, but my knowledge is so rudimentary, I don't feel I'm ready to enter the discussion, even with questions. My little firewire Point Grey Flea was so plug-and-play easy, I think it got me a bit initially overconfident. Recently I acquired a bayer 2/3" camera, but it's LVDS, and suddenly me and my Mac are a ball in tall weeds.

January 21st, 2007, 11:31 AM	#488
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Back from break. Has this thread been clipped? I would not mind knowing what that forum was, a good reference. I think an custom made/Digital cinema camera sub forum would be good here, there certainly have been enough threads to justify it. Dennis, Yes there are a number of 1 inch sensors. I forget where, apart from Kodak (CCD). It would be worth getting onto the sites of good sensor manufacturers and check, try Cirrus. I can't remember, but try Foveon as well, their sensors are starting to come out in box sensors. I mention this because X3 sensors are starting to hit the industrial sensor market (as posted previously).

January 25th, 2007, 05:31 AM	#491
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Igor, nice, what price? Dennis, around here I can't remember, but I think there are a number of commercial machine vision cameras out there, it is a matter or searching. One place is the official website for the camera-link interface, that has an product search engine. Once you find some you can see if they have them for any other interface. I'm pretty sure I have listed it in this thread, with other lists of products. Come to think of it, have a look at the camera frame grabber packages from Epix, I think there might be one there, or at least an Kodak sensor.

January 25th, 2007, 09:25 AM	#492
Igor Babic Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 171	Wayne, I dont know, will ask. Here is some good links for MV hardware & cameras http://vsd.pennnet.com/home.cfm and here for prices http://www.i-cubeinc.com/cameras-chart.htm all Kodak 1" have price over 5000$ Epix use Micron and thats why they are about 1000$ for camera&grabber Imperx & Pulnix use Kodak 1" and Imperx have 1920x1080 GigE version for 5245$ (my favorite, but too pricey). Ilunis looks great also.

January 26th, 2007, 10:30 PM	#493
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I had a look. There is an Kodak, but frame rate is low, and there is an Zoran. http://www.epixinc.com/products/sv1310.htm This is the only one with non micron sensor that has an appreciable frame rate: http://www.epixinc.com/products/sv1281.htm Sounds suspiciously familiar. In the past, one of the problems has been that only an few 24fps capable cmos sensors were being sold in low cost cameras. But time has moved on, and there is presumably more sensors from different manufacturers that will do this, and it would be good if somebody could review whats available and post back? Now, I would still say it is probably better for people to look at programming HD webcams, Mobiles, and Ultra-mobile PC's for HD video for an cheaper solution. An number of these might contain Micron quality sensors. The other problem is that some mainstream cameras now contain very nice sensors, and you can capture from them. Although these cameras can never match the bayer quality that we can capture, it is close enough to ask about the price of current machine vision solutions. Forgot to mention: I think the thing with the Epix cards was, that the free software did not record continuous live motion capture directly and continuously to disk. Even though the package is reasonably cheap, you then have to pay for the more expensive software version to get this feature. If people were interested it might be worth asking them about an special edition for Indies with motion capture. Conservatively, look over in the main Elphel 333 thread for the projects based on the 353 camera, this is probably the cheapest boxed camera solution.

January 27th, 2007, 04:52 AM	#494
Igor Babic Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 171	Those german guys are on to something... http://www.kamera.abs-jena.de/produk...erentw_de.html For those that dont undrestand german it sayz that thay have under development 5mpix camera with DVI and HDSDI out at HD video standard resolutions. It will have onboard processing and OSD info. Sound like something red.... BTW. Has anybody seen this http://www.arecontvision.com/products_3100.html http://www.arecontvision.com/products_2100.html http://www.arecontvision.com/products_100.html They are like elphel also and are under 700$. Its surveillance stuff that looks like DV on steroids but worth looking... There is lots of pictures and footage examples. I wish that every MV camera manufacturer have site like that.

January 29th, 2007, 10:54 AM	#495
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Hmm, I need to look at these some over time, but looks like an interesting find. But this is what I mean, if somebody had the time to look through all the sensors, all the security cameras, all the web cams, you might find more like this. Thanks Wayne.