Thanks Jim!

I got my microcrystalline wax sample from Strahl & Pitsch:
http://www.spwax.com

I posted some still frames a while back, but it is now sortof a requirement (and understandably) to post uncompressed motion footage.

Within the next week or so I will get some footage and host it here from my work computer. We're on a T1. Not the fastest thing in the world, but it should work fairly well if my computer and web server (free from analogx.com) can handle it.

Great! Thanks, Frank!

Questions for Frank, or anyone with good wax experience:

1) How close are the two plates of glass to be placed? 1a) Did you just run aluminum foil at its edges in one layer density for a spacer, or...?

2) How did you keep your setup level, and the glass consequently perpendicular? Could you be very detailed in your setup process, please?

3) How long do you let the wax heat up? In other words, once it has melted and moves up to the top of the glass, do you keep the oven on and let it sit for some time, and if so -- what's the approximate time for doing so?

4) Cooling -- just let it cool on its own slowly, or do you chill it/blow it with cool air?

I got my S&P wax recently and am playing with it today -- playing in a very non-committed fashion. I'm shaving wax into small bits with a cheese grater, placing these bits ontop of a UV filter, and then placing this inside an aluminum foil take-out container from a local restaurant.

Heating it in a toaster oven to 200 degrees, the wax melts to a clear liquid in about 3 minutes.

The first run of this had some solids (salt/grit/hair) that I used a pencil tip to remove from the wax -- it also had some spots where the wax didn't take to the glass' surface. I'm now re-applying more wax and letting it cool on its own time.

This go is just to experiment quickly to see what sort of tolerances there are (and aren't) with the wax, the glass (Hoya UV filters), and other random variables. All told it's a far less forgiving endeavor than aluminum oxide :D

- jim

Hi Jim!

Sorry about the lack of video footage, but I have not forgotten!

Anyhow, to answer your questions:


1) I used two thin strips of standard aluminum foil (not the heavy-duty stuff) folded over, making sure there were no creases/wrinkles in them.

2) I wasn't too precise in this area. As far as keeping the glass sandwich vertical (so bubbles would escape), I just propped the glass against a makeshift aluminum foil arm that was attached to the top of the aluminum cup.

3) Here I didn't really use any specific time. I just watched the surface of the wax above the glass (which should be completely submerged in the wax) and waited until there were no more little bubbles floating up. Then I gave it some more time after that to be sure before turning the heat off.

4) I just let the wax cool on its own. However, I didn't let it harden completely. Once it was in a soft/mushy state, I began to clean the wax away from the outside.

Hope this helps!

Tried my first somewhat serious attampt at making a wax glass yesterday, with mixed results. The oven still works, at least :D

The glass I've got as a result has a few bubbles, but the most notable problem with it is that I used a pair of tongs to dip the glass into the wax -- where the pressure of the tongs was placed on the glass' surface is a perceptible ring in the wax. So...

Tomorrow I'm going to change the setup and have another go at this. I plan on covering the exterior of the glass with Scotch tape, leaving tabs of tape running past the edge of the glass, so that when the wax hardens, I'll merely need to pull the tape of the glass and the wax will come with it.

Also, instead of using tongs, I'll be making a small wire device similar to the egg dippers you'd use as a kid for dying eggs -- this way I plan on submerging the entire glass, hanging the "dipper" over the edge of the melting pot, and waiting until I feel the bubbles have all risen to the top.

I can't seem to induce the capillary action. I'm using round pieces of glass because the few glass companies I've called have said they will not cut circular glass to my required dimensions (49mm). Resorting to submerging the glass entirely seems to be my best bet.

Tip on using aluminum foil spacers -- fold the aluminum over twice, and use a rolling pin to flatten it perfectly.

Tip on cleaning the glass -- use a razor blade and de-natured alcohol.

- jim

Excellent tips, Jim! Thanks for sharing your experience with us!

Good idea about the tape. Make sure you keep the glass submerged for a while, though. I found that when using scotch tape, tiny bubbles would come out of it and seep through the glass. So it may need to sit for a while.

Also, I tried electrical tape, and although it didn't melt, it didn't adhere very well to the glass when submerged.

Good idea about the egg-dipper device!

A thought came to mind. Maybe someone can think of a way to execute it.

It may be possible to place the groundglass in a shallow holder in a larger disk which is itself on a speed controllable drive, rotate the assembly, heat it up with a gluegun or hairdrier, spray or simply melt shaved wax onto the glass, then spin the excess off with higher rpm, blowing the wax runs across the radius paths with the gluegun, then withdraw the gluegun slowly enough allow the thing to cool gently.

This might yield a wax coat of even thickness without need of coverplate.

That's a good idea, Bob! Seems like that would help with the bubble problem we run into.

However, one of the reasons I am wanting to keep the wax inbetween two pieces of glass is to keep the wax clean. That would be a problem if it where just a wax coating on glass. Just something to consider.

But maybe you can have the second glass cover be non-contact (ie. raised from the wax surface).

Hrm... wonder what I could use for a slow rpm drive...

It's a good idea, but it seems a bit too complex for the homegrown stuff.

I may have time later today or tomorrow to give my microwax another go -- I'll let you know how things went.

- jim

I got the best wax/glass sandwich a couple of days ago - no bubbles in the view at all! However, the next day when I wanted to go out and shoot some stuff it had done something funny. The wax looked as if it pulled away from one side of the glass. It wasn't stored in a hot location or anything. Not sure at all why it did that. It didn't effect the image that much, until you pointed it at something bright.

Has this happened to anyone else?

It's likely one or both of the glasses warped during heating and bent back afteer cooling causing the delamination. Thinner glass which can be held bent by the wax adhesion might solve it.

Did you remount your wax glass in a metal frame after making it. If so, that may also had had something to do with it. I would use three small drops of resilient glue to immobilise the gg and leave the clamping ring a quarter turn loose.

Slightly divergent, I changed my method of dressing the oharadisks in the groundglassing tumbler to mounting them with wax to the center of a larger glass disk which fits in the rear of the tumbler. I was originally using the large disk as a dressing surface and mounting the oharadisks in a rolling thick metal holder with the wax and rolling the small disk across the larger one.

The larger disk had a AO5 finish from previous grindings upon it. I placed it on the stove (ceramic cooktop) set the heat to low, placed the oharadisk on top in center then dropped a few wax shavings in the center hole of the oharadisk. The wax melted and crept out to the circumference with not one bubble. At face to face glass contact, the wax sheet is too thin as a projection surface alone, but there is an interesting effect.

The effect is to apparently smoothen or make finer, the existing groundglass texture and it becomes more transparent. I can't use it for image tests as the back of the big disk is also partially groundglassed and scratched and it is too thick anyway. Through the few transparent bits I can look through, it appears the combination of thin wax and one groundglass face and one smooth face, yields a workable finer texture than the thicker wax or groundglass alone. How it would hold up for resolution I don't know and I have not yet repeated the exercise. It might be worth a try if anyone else feels like making the effort. The A05 is a little too fine. I would start with a coarser grade finish and work down.

I tried something similar when I was working with the WAO glass. I smeared petroleum jelly over the ground surface of the glass. All this did was make it transparent and thus unusable for catching intermediate images.

However, your idea of using wax - I don't see why it wouldn't work. In fact, wouldn't the melted wax distribute more evenly over the ground/diffuse glass as opposed to a clean glass surface?

I wonder whether it might enable a coarser gg to be used, the opaque wax smoothing out the image a little but also acting as a gg itself. The coarser grade finish would enable a measured wax thickness if two glass disks were kept hard together which would elimate the variable density problem for spinners. It may soften the image a little too much but that's the thought.

That sounds like a good idea. I'd like to know the results if you try that! I envision it smoothing the image out (minimizing the grain).

Update:

I bought a couple of 2" x 2" picture frames from a local dollar store earlier today and made a really nice adapter out of them. What I was trying to do was get a larger area so that I wouldn't have to zoom in so much. (On the GL2, you get pretty noticeable vignetting once zoomed in, I think due to the stops lowering in telephoto.)

I haven't had a chance to shoot some daytime footage due to the time change (it's dark when I get off work), but I went ahead and shot some inside stuff. After I export the video footage, I plan on bringing it to my work computer on CD and putting it on my webserver there. I'll hopefully have something for you guys tomorrow!

Sample Footage
 

I have put up some framegrabs and sample footage here:

http://209.214.235.122/mwtest/

Contents (so far):
- 4 frame grabs (BMP)
- 2 video clips:
( 1 720x480 24p uncompressed - 168 MB )
( 1 352x240 30p uncompressed - 71 MB )

These are some big files, and I'm on a T1 line (1.5Mb/s) so I'm not sure how this'll do, especially with multiple connections, but we'll give it a try.

(Also: The two video clips are actually different shots - not just two versions of the same shot.)

Thanks!

According to the log, I've had several downloads (mainly of the .BMP framegrabs). The big 168MB clip has been downloaded by a few different people already, so I'm glad to see that it's not completely choking.

I'm curious to know what transfer rate some of you are getting.

I plan on shooting some outside stuff this weekend. If there's a continued interest, and the server is handling things well for you guys, I'd be glad to post some more stuff.

Let me know.

Thanks!

I downloaded both clips and got a decent rate. I can't remember precisely though.

Anyway... both clips won't play on my computer. I'm not sure if it's just me or if the clips are corrupt etc. Could you check?

Just finished d/l'ing the smaller clip, and it played fine. Looks good! I'm getting 114k/sec down.

Today I'll have my first shot at re-attempting the microwax screen -- hopefully it will turn out as good as yours, Frank.

Thanks for sharing!

- jim

Frank, what method did you use to apply the wax?

How transparent is the final product and how thick?

I'm thinking about giving some fine waxed paper a try as an imaging plate... not sure how that will turn out but I'll post if anything decent comes from it.

Glad they're downloading ok!

Aaron: Hrm...I tested them and they played ok. They may play a bit laggy on some computers since they're uncompressed, but they're not playing at all on your computer? Can you try maybe opening them in QuickTime? That's what I play them in here at work.

Jim: Thanks! Please keep us posted on how it goes!

About the setup:
Well, it's kinda funny. This time I just bought a couple of cheap picture frames and sorta did a rush-job on it.

Here's what I did:

- Formed an aluminum foil cup

(double-layered -and heavy-duty is best because it's easy for a
glass corner to puncture the foil, and you don't want a hot-wax leak)

- Created spacers

(( SCOTCH TAPE this time - not aluminum ))
This was done by folding the tape pieces longways, sticky side out. This was placed inbetween the edges of the glass pieces, except for the top side. The excess tape sticking out was folded back over. This formed somewhat of a seal, but mainly a spacer (albeit not-so-precise). I then put more tape around the edges.

- Melted the wax in a pot.

- Put the glass sandwich in the aluminum cup.

- Poured (carefully) the hot wax in the aluminum cup, making sure the glass was submerged.

- After that I held the cup with an oven mit, making sure the glass was standing straight up in the wax and that the bubbles were escaping.

- After it cooled a bit (the wax goes from clear to white), I began slowly peeling the aluminum foil from around the sides. I removed the wax (which was then in a mushy state) from around the glass and put it back in the pot.

- I cleaned the outsides of the glass and examined the wax layer to find that there was still a small bubble trapped inside.

- I taped the sides up some more and put a hair dryer to the glass, tilting it upright (open side on up) with the oven mit, allowing the bubble to move up and out.

(I really advise that you figure out a good way to seal your wax inside the glass so that you can simply re-melt it in cases like this. It's so much easier.)

I think that's about it. Let me know if I need to clarify anything.

Aaron: I can't say exactly the thickness of the wax in precise units, but it's however thick a piece of scotch tape is folded twice.
;-)

It is maybe not transparent enough. It really wants a lot of light, but I don't have as bad of a hotspot problem. It seems to distribute more evenly.

Aaron: I've heard the wax paper mentioned before. Not sure if there's been any success with it, though. Seems like the paper bits or whatever would show up. It is worth a try, though.

Hrm...I wonder if you could use something that light in conjunction with a piezo element to get a quick vibration that maybe isn't possible with a comparitavely heavy piece of glass.
You would just have to be sure the paper vibrates in a uniform fashion and stays straight.

Paraffin
 

Hey guys!

I'm glad there are still people downloading the footage! I was afraid that the computer and connection wouldn't be able to handle it.

I just got back from a hobby store, where I purchased some more cheap picture frames and some paraffin wax. I have only used microcrystalline wax for this application so paraffin is a first. I just melted it and poured it in a cup w/ the prepared glass sandwich and it is now cooling. I've been checking back on it periodically and it looks like the stuff takes a lot longer to cool than microcrystalline. Seemed to take longer to melt, also. Maybe next go around I can time it.

Anyhow, if this works as well as the microcrystalline I'll be quite happy since it is a lot more readily available.

How are you guys coming along?

frank that footage is great...i was just abut to finish my mini35 design and u show me this!!!...:)

is it possible u send another footage in the outside and another in the dark...so we can see the responce of the grains to light?

Thank you for the compliment, Dogus!

I have already shot some more footage with the adapter and will try to have it ready to upload in the next day or so.

Thanks for the interest!

Also, in my previous post I mentioned trying paraffin wax. Well I don't think it will work for this purpose. The grain is very noticeable as compared to microcrystalline.

hmm interesting Frank. Could you post a few grabs of the grain associated with the Paraffin wax?

Aaron: In the next day or two I'll try and put up some pictures of the adapter, and a framegrab w/ the paraffin.

Hi, somoene did more tests on the wax solution ??
Where did you buy the wax ? (I wasn't able to find any online shop with clear specifications except the one posted in this thread).

I got another idea for the wax solution, what about spray wax, the one used for car maintenance ??
MAYBE this could be created without using two pieces of glass, but MAYBE is it possible to just spray one side of a UV filter and get a reasonably accurate film... "shooting" staying quite distant from the lens...

What do u think ?? That polishing wax is quite cheap so it won't be a problem doing some tests....

Hi
once I found a link
to a guy in France

Yes I'm living there
but not French by the way

who makes a Boscreen
with a liquid something
between parafine and oil
not cheap
but no grain

Can u please try to find the address again ??? it whould be nice form e (living in Italy) :D

sorry but the guy is out of business
so sorry but
it has been 2000 I've spoken to him

Try Strahl and Pitch wax -- they might deliver internationally. Ask them for a sample.

Sorry for my long absence -- just got around to working on a new microwax adapter tonight. The wax is solidifiying as I type this :)

- jim

Just figured out the hard way that fingerprints are a bitch :)

So, as someone already stated and I'm now going to emphasize -- clean both sides of your glass before placing it in the wax -- oil from fingerprints formed on the inside will prevent the wax from taking to the surface evenly.

On a bright note, no bubbles :)

- jim

Initial experiences with my adapter have proven disappointing.

Frank, did you blend the micro wax with paraffin? I ask because the grain of my adapter is significantly greater than that of yours. I'm uploading full res footage now to show you what I mean...

Also, I'm wondering if perhaps I made the gap between filters too wide -- I folded the foil twice over, so it was four pieces thick in the end, and rolled it flat with a rolling pin. Maybe it should be only one or two pieces thick.

More experimentation and footage soon...

- jim

Jim.

I tried the blend suggested some time back of 10% bleached beeswax in paraffin wax when I made the wax composite disks for the spinner. The disks were separated by only one thickness of cooking foil. When put against a strongly contrasted background, the disk could almost be seen through.

The waxdisk*.jpg images in www.dvinfo.net/media/hart came from that. Those I now realise are not valid for a fixed groundglass test.

Another option might be to try your microcrystalline wax and a bleached beeswax blend.

Jim: I have not mixed the different waxes. All my first experiments were of pure microcrystalline. The last thing I tried was paraffin-only, which yielded more grain than the micro-only version.

Bob -- thanks for the ideas.

Frank -- how many layers of tape/foil are you using to separate your filters?

- jim

My first attempts were all with foil (non heavy-duty) strips folded two times.

My last attempt was with masking tape (I think I've been calling it 'scotch' tape the whole time.) as a spacer, which worked well so long as the thing stayed submerged long enough for the tiny air bubbles within the tape to .

Micro Wax Tutorial
 

Frank, and/or any other Wax Pioneers,

Is there any documentation anyone has done on their process of making a wax focus element for static adapter use?

That's something I've wished for more of on the forums here - documentation. I'd love to improve on my current static adapter design which is documented here:

http://www.holyzoo.com/zoo_updates.php

Otherwise, what are the current thoughts on whether wax is better than ground glass at this point? How would it compare to a high end Focus Screen like one from this company?

http://www.intenscreen.com/

Frank.

You can try using PVC wood glue to hold the foil with one piece between the glasses and wrapped around the edge to the outer face. Only give it a good long time to set.

Once you have got the wax in, you can trim the foil off the outside and dissolve the PVC off with water. The piece of foil between the two sheets is there for keeps of course.

Otherwise, try Loctite 358 UV curing adhesive in very small pinhead drops on the foil both sides, press it together and set the glue off with a UV lamp. That version will be going no place so it had better be right. The upside should be an ability to rework the wax without the glass disks coming apart.

Steev: Hi! I don't really have any documentation, other than what I mentioned here. I don't have the time currently to put one together, but a step-by-step tutorial with pictures would be nice.

First I've heard of the UV-curing glue, Bob! That is definately something to try. Thanks!