Keith...any ideas about removing bubbles are welcome! I'm waiting to hear more. :-)

Agreed. I was thinking it might work to use a vaccum sealer for that kinda thing -- the kind you can purchase for food. Who knows how successful it would be, especially with the expense and the dangers of cracking the glass :/

- jim

I've heard mention of a vacuum technique before, and would like to hear more about it as a possible production technique. (Although it would likely be out of my price range. :-) )

Bubbles
 

Well that's on the right track of what i was thinking actually. My friend does special FX makeup and prop building. He has something used for mixing (foam i think). It's bascially a small vacuum chamber used to remove the air from the foam. I asked him about and said we can try it. We're not sure if it will pull a vacuum that strong, but it'll be worth a try. Generally the foam it's designed for is alot less viscous than even the melted wax, but it's worth a shot. I still haven't made it to a craft place to check out the micro wax, but i'll let everyone know when I do.

commercial version
 

Hi there,

There is a little company in Germany which seem to have the knowhow and quite resonable prices to produce screens of the quality we may need. They call their product "glasscreen":

http://www.glasscreen.com

For a spinning 35mm adapter I asked them for the possibility of a glasscreen in shape of a CD. They answered, this would be no problem.


cheers,
martin

Bubble removal
 

Call your local pattern supply company, the places that supply plasters and various molding compounds. Usually, they have industrial bell jar vacuum chambers that are used for evacuating bubbles from plastics and the molding compounds. The place about 5 mins from where I work in Portland charges $10/day.

When I get a spare day to work on this, I'm going to try the following procedure:

Put the bottom piece of glass in a sealing frame
Put the spacer rim on the glass (ouside the viewing area)
Pour in the molten wax
Put in the top piece of glass
While the wax is still molten (put on top of a battery powered peltier cooler/warmer), put on the bell jar and evacuate the pressure. Keep it at 0 bar until the was solidifies.

Like I said, when I get some spare time...

definitely let us know how that turns out!

Yes, definately keep us updated!

Re: commercial version
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Martin Diruf : Hi there,

There is a little company in Germany which seem to have the knowhow and quite resonable prices to produce screens of the quality we may need. They call their product "glasscreen":

http://www.glasscreen.com

For a spinning 35mm adapter I asked them for the possibility of a glasscreen in shape of a CD. They answered, this would be no problem.


cheers,
martin -->>>

did you see how much it would cost in $US dollars?

Micro Wax
 

Okay i still haven't had a chance to check the craft stores for they have, but I found a few other places. Tell me how bad this sucks. I found a place that's literally 2 miles from my driveway that makes microcrsytalline wax. really high quality stuff for the rubber and plastics industry. Called them today and they don't sell to the public nor would they even give me a small sample, which i even offered to pay for. Anway the one place I found carries two types and I was wondering if anyone had any input on which might be better. According to the info one is slightly softer and melts at 175F and the other is slightly harder and melts at 195F. My first thought is the higher melting point might be better so the screen doesn't melt, but is there any benefit to having it slightly softer? The only other factor is the way it comes. The Micro 175 comes in an 11 lbs. block and the Micro 195 only comes in bead form... so it'd be a 11 lbs. bag of wax beads. Also getting the vacuum chamber from my friend to see if that will help me aviod bubbles. I'll let you guys know as soon as I get to test out my ideas.

Anyway any input on which of the waxes I should try would be great. Cost wise the block of 175 is cheaper (about $26 shipped/11 lbs.) and the 195 (about $32 shipped/11lbs.) I know that's alot of wax, but I figure I'd rather have way too much than not enough.

I wouldn't worry about the wax melting! 175f is hot!

that's pretty much what i was figuring. I just wasn't sure if there'd be any advantage to it being more or less flexible. I mean since it's going between 2 pieces of glass I guess it wouldn't really matter anyway right? Also where is everyone getting their pieces of glass?

The Strahl and Pitch wax I use is rated with a 96 degree melting point, which means it could possibly melt if left for long periods in the sun on a very hot day, but....I wouldn't do that to my cam anyway.

How you're going to work with 175 rated wax seems a little challenging to say the least :D

- jim

For All Those Vacuum Lovers...
 

If anyone is really serious about vacuum, I suggest you get a working compressor from a discarded fridge. I made an airbrush compressor out of one, and it works great. I also saw ppl using it for vacuum-forming of foam parts. Just cover the outlet with a sponge or something, to absorb the oil that'll spit out ;)

I've lost references to vacuum-forming, but here's something to give you an idea:

http://clubhyper.com/reference/compressorgi_1.htm and
http://www.old.modelarstwo.org.pl/te...ka2/index.html - I hope you can read Polish... Nah, just look at the pictures!

Re: Micro Wax
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : I know that's alot of wax, but I figure I'd rather have way too much than not enough. -->>>

hey Keith, you can always SELL this wax to someone like people on this forum... :) maybe this is idea what to do with the rest of it when you finish your GG.

filip

Re: Re: Micro Wax
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Filip Kovcin : <<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : I know that's alot of wax, but I figure I'd rather have way too much than not enough. -->>>

hey Keith, you can always SELL this wax to someone like people on this forum... :) maybe this is idea what to do with the rest of it when you finish your GG.

filip -->>>

That's actually what I was thinking. The guy I'm borrowing the vacuum chamber from said he might wants so also, so I'm gonna find out how much he wants and get him to chip in. I figured it out and I can get 11lbs. of the 175 and 11lbs. of the 195 for less than $60 shipped to me so if he wants like half I might just get both and try both types.

Also am picking up the vacuum chamber tomorrow afternoon, so hopefully I'll get to try making some next week.

I asked before, but no one replied. Where are people getting the glass pieces from? Glass shops? Cutting yourself? just curious.

UV filters -- Hoya generic UV filters at whatever diameter fits. They shouldn't run anymore than $14, and can be popped out of their retaining rings easily.

I purchase round picture frames from Hobby Lobby. The glass is close to 50mm in diameter. The best part is they cost $ .99 each.

Just got this in the mail:

I'm going to be writing this guy and experimenting with what he suggests -- apparently, he writes, he was the "Product Manager for waxes and wax emulsions at Mobil Oil Corp" prior to retiring. This could be fun :D

- jim

Very cool. Let us know how the experiments go!

Vacuum
 

Okay I picked up this boy boy today...

http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/vacuum.jpg

It's not very big, but it should do the job. Actually starting to look for teh parts now to build one fore myself a little larger. Hopefully I'm gonna order some wax this weekend and start trying this thing out. I'm still not sure if it'll pull enough of a vacuum to remove the air from the wax, but it should in theory. This one was designed to remove the air from liquid molding silicon and that's even more thick then teh melted wax.

Just to understand what everyone one else has tried. How are you guys going about putting the glass and together in the wax and also what are people using for spacers? Is there any ideal thinkness established yet?

Before I forget. I'm still debating on how much of that wax to get. If I end up with extra, is there anyone who might be interested in a pound or 2 for their experiments? I haven't priced the stuff out per pound with shipping and everything, but I'm guessing it would be less than 5 bucks a pound. Prob. more like $4 though. This wouldn't including shipping to you, but I doubt that would be very much for a pound. Just seeing if there might be any interest. Let me know. Thanks.

Re: Re: Re: Micro Wax
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : Where are people getting the glass pieces from? Glass shops? Cutting yourself? just curious. -->>>

i found very nice glases in optical (oculist/ophthalmologist) shop where they are selling frames for glasses (not for drinking) - and they are cutting it in some strange mashines - any shape you want - and diameter. i did it with 0 dioptry glases for GG and for +7 and more for my testings (macro). everyting worked perfectly.
you can ask them to cut VERy preciselly, say 58,1mm or 57,9mm and it will work. i needed for my tests one 52mm and one 58mm diameter glass, and everyting was exellent. and CHEAP!

filip

Re: Vacuum
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : Okay I picked up this boy boy today...

http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/vacuum.jpg

-->>>

looks very "pro" - can you tell us about the sizes in cm or " ?

just curious

filip

Frank and I have been using aluminum foil for spacers -- one layer thick is the "ideal" thickness so far -- any thicker and light loss is pretty extreme, however at one layer inconsistencies in the wax layer and bubbles become a real pain. You just put a piece of aluminum opposite each other at the edges of the filters and then tape the filters together on the outside:

http://ideaspora.net/grainless/step-1.jpg -- this image shows the foil folded -- it shouldn't be.

http://ideaspora.net/grainless/step-2.jpg -- here's the foil in place with some Scotch tape around the filters' edges.

http://ideaspora.net/grainless/step-3.jpg -- the setup submerged.

If I had access to a bell jar , I'd melt enough wax to submerge the glass upright, and then place the entire cup/wax/glass in the jar.

If you pull this off successfully, I'll be happy to buy a handful of them off you.

- jim

edit -- duplicate post (???)

Re: Re: Vacuum
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Filip Kovcin : <<<-- Originally posted by Keith Kline : Okay I picked up this boy boy today...

http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/vacuum.jpg

-->>>

looks very "pro" - can you tell us about the sizes in cm or " ?

just curious

filip -->>>

I haven't had a chance to measure it yet, but that one is rather small. If I have a chance when I get home this afternoon I'll write down the demensions. I would say that the silver base part is only about 6" across. It'll be a tight fit, but if i have any luck the guy who i borrowed it from (who also built it) is going to help me make a larger one. Most of the parts are pretty easy to find. Only the one part is somewhat harder to find, but i guess he has an extra, so really I think I just need the 2 ball valves and a plexiglass top for it.

Anyway, I'm off to the store to look for some glass now. I've also been looking for glass cutter to maybe cut my own. Has anyone ever tried that?

Yeah. Finding a circular glass cutter for less than say, $300, that does small diameter circles (less than 3") is pretty impossible.

More correspondence from the emulsions expert:

Some of this I thought of already but pose their own problems. I responded to him already and hopefully he'll have some solutions.

- jim

more test footage
 

I have uploaded some new test footage for you guys to check out.

http://209.214.235.122/mwtest

The file is named "MicrowaxAdapter_Test_Condenser.mpg".
Since this was mainly to test the condenser (not grain), I rendered it to MPEG2.

(( I had to download an MPEG2 codec for it to play on the computer here at work. ))

After I got the footage from the camera, I noticed a little piece of debris on the right side of the frame. Other than that, I think it looks ok. Grain may be only slightly noticeable when the aperture is closed. The image isn't 100% even in brightness, so I may get some footage with 2 condensers and see how it compares.

All comments welcome!

Thanks!

Jim and others,

I am interested in a circular glass cutter to experiment with spinning ground glass (as opposed to spinning plastic CDs). I actually need a glass circle cut around 4" or less (doesn't have to be CD-size).

Would this work:
http://www.glassmart.com/circmate.asp
?


Also, for those interested in cutting diameters less than 3", look at this:
http://www.cathedralstainedglass.com/glasscutters.html
(scroll down to the bottom - "Fletcher Small Circle Cutter - The best for cutting 1/2" to 5" diameter circles.")

Frank,

I've got no real experience with glass cutters and until the link you provided, wasn't able to find any that cut holes smaller than 3", so I can't really weigh in with advice.

I'm curious -- in the new test footage you've got, is the microwax screen a blend of microwax and paraffin? If so, at what approximate proportions?

Thanks,

- jim

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Ladner : Jim and others,

I am interested in a circular glass cutter to experiment with spinning ground glass (as opposed to spinning plastic CDs). I actually need a glass circle cut around 4" or less (doesn't have to be CD-size).

Would this work:
http://www.glassmart.com/circmate.asp
?


Also, for those interested in cutting diameters less than 3", look at this:
http://www.cathedralstainedglass.com/glasscutters.html
(scroll down to the bottom - "Fletcher Small Circle Cutter - The best for cutting 1/2" to 5" diameter circles.") -->>>

Hey Frank. I fogot to post about this before but i ordered a circle cutter last week. I think it was less than $30 shipped to me. It was late last week so I expect it to arrive anyday now. I'll let everyone know how it works when it arrives. I'll post some pics and such. If i remember it will cut from 3/8" to 6" diameter.

BTW the footage looks really impressive. It's inspired me and I'm gonna finally order my wax so hopefully by the time i get it i'll have the circle glass cutter and the new and improved vacuum chamber done.

Jim:
It's 100% microcrystalline. I tried paraffin by itself one time, but it seemed to have more noticeable grain, so I didn't try to mix them because I thought it would lessen the fine-grain qualities of the microcrystalline wax. (Althought it would likely help in the melting-point department.)

Keith:
Thank you for the comments! Glad you liked the footage! On the glass cutter, please let us know how it turns out! Where did you find one for around $30? I'm really interested in that!

Seconded!

Glass Cutter
 

It was actually on ebay. Most of the ones the seller had we going for about 15-20 with 10 for shipping. I lucked out and actually got mine for 22 shipped. I'll find the user's info sometime this week. If i were you guys i might hold off on ordering one until mine arrives though because the seller had a little too many negative feedbacks for my tastes. I paid with paypal tho so even if he tried to jip me i can still get my money back if there is a problem.

Depending on how easy it is to use I'd be willing to cut some peices for people who don't want to buy one themselves. Like I said I'll post somemore info when it arrives.

Excellent, Keith! Looking forward to more info! Thanks!

Still Waiting
 

Still waiting for the glass cutter. I ordered my wax last night and I'm getting 5 lbs. of it. I'll let everyone know when it arrives if it's promising or not. I'm gonna try building a new vacuum chamber to get rid of bubbles this weekend if I get a chance. Anyone else making progress with the wax technique?

Thanks for the update, Keith!

I actually have a pretty decent adapter right now that I'm playing around with. I would like to make another attempt at achieving a thinner layer of wax, though. I can take my current glass + wax, heat it with a hairdryer, and set a weight on top (to compress the wax in the middle - squeezing the excess through the masking tape) and once it cools, I have a pretty thin layer, but eventually the glass pulls away from it.

Update
 

So I'm still waiting for my glass cutter to arrive. I have a tracking number for the wax and it should be here next day or two. If the glass cutter doesn't show up tomorrow I'll be sending some emails.

Frank,
I was just checking out some of the clips you have on that page. They look really good. Do you have any pictures of the adapter and the set up you used? Or does anyone else?

Keith,
Thanks for checking out the clips!

I'll try to take a few pictures of the adapter itself and upload them within the next couple of days. It is definately not the most professional-looking device you've ever seen. :-)