I can say this, 35mm film cameras can be big, Rolls of film are big. So in comparison 4 drive (cheap drives in Raid to save money and increase capacity) canbe smaller and tripod mounted, and the drives be smaller than a roll of film.

What you are facing is cooling technique problems. For my Case ideas I was looking at an almost completely silent passive cooling (well possibly completely) technique with added unique features. Very patentable stuff. But if you look around you should be able to find and implement existing passive cooling techniques. The second problem is peak efficiency, which means in hot places like where I live you will need much more efficency then in Germany. So you have to get processing power under a certain heat disapation per GHZ. This means single or multicore, Pent M and VIA processors, and using a good onbaord GPU and DSP's (every trick in the book). Then also lower powered lower speed memory (memory aren't the major speed restriction). Drives, well if you use an extra drive on cheap array you can use lower powered higher capacity drives, so now they last 4 times longer per drive *2+ drives. But you get the picture on how to shoe horn in a system. Now using best programming practices (and realtime OS or stripped realtime Linux witrh Machine code extensions) maybe you also halve the proccessing power needed.


So if Markus looks at what the average PC does it may look impossible, but if you look at what the best can do it is.

Hm
good morning, a bit late okay
go back 20 years and there you have all you need
it was used by STAX for their Class A amps, fantastic sound still today, called "heat pipe" no noise at all, it is heavily used by radio amteurs and works

no problems only solulutions

Four Fujistu 5400RPM 2.5" SATA drives can sustain over 100MB/s. The new Seagate 7200.1 Momentus drives (2.5" SATA) in a four drive RAID can sustain over 120MB/s. They also go up to 100GB each, and four of them will fit in the same space as a single 3.5" drive.

The Fujitsu's are available now. The Seagates in 1Q05. Combind that with a SATA RAID card or the 4 sata ports on a 915 chipset (and the 915GM when it ships in January, also called "Alviso" that'll use the lower-powered Pentium M), and you've got a ton of throughput without a lot of heat, wattage, etc.

If you're doing things right, you don't need to have four 10K drives gobbling up 50W of power to get the throughput you need.

Okay, the parts aren't there RIGHT NOW.

And you have a point there, your DRAKE system is working an functional right now. But in a couple months, you'll have a quiet (film cameras aren't completely quite BTW) camera system based on the Pentium M and the 915GM chipset with four small 2.5" SATA drives for recording. It won't take loud fans to keep it cool, etc., it'll be the perfect package that your looking for.

But honestly you probably won't be able to build something like that till next summer. But it'll be here, and it's coming pretty fast.

In the meantime you have a working system, but if you only have on shot at this (and not unlimited funds to keep spending on developing camera systems), then a couple months of waiting will give you a great chip in the Altasens-based cameras, and a quiet recorder that's SATA and Pentium-M based.

Jason, this thread is for DRAKE. And DRAKE work with only one HDD.
Let me say only one thing: Be sure, we know what is possible. And if you can read between the lines, you maybe know what you will find some day from us.

But now lets talk about DRAKE. Tomorrow we will have a final product design meeting. As we said it, it is a whole SYSTEM, not only a camera. I´m sure we talk also about things we can say here before the web side is ready

So is the web site going to be up tomorrow or the camera is going to be ready?

All this talk and not one pic of the camera. Don't know if I believe it.

As Elvis says:

"A little less conversation, and a little more action"

@Gary and @Michael:

The camera is ready. Markus continue shoot his movie with it. You saw first clips here.

But today we will talk about last changes in case and accessories design, because most mechanics parts are made by hand, whithout CNC. To start (and optimize) serial production, we must change some part design (only for part production, not for function). On the other hand, we will talk today about a main question: What parts and accessories will be included, and whats optional.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ronald Biese :
no problems only solulutions -->>>

Glad to hear it, I often find too many people without solutions.

Jason nice solution, I wonder if the next lot of 50MB's 3.5 inch drives are going to improve the situation.

Well, I'm going to read between the lines (well speculate at least). If your camera has much more than a sensor (cases, controls, and adaptor), then it would be good if you could upgrade to 1080 by replacing sensor and drives.

Thanks

Wayne.

Short news about DRAKE:

Timeline for presentation the whole system will be the 12.14.2004.

markus and rai...rockin da house..
 

I've been following this thread (and obin's) on and off since they started (mostly lurking) and it prompted us to move towards productising a high speed digital HD solution.

A number of HD projects (full length feature films low, medium and high budget) that shoot in our area all have to hire film equipment to shoot off-speed stuff (usually meaning more than 60fps)...

so we decided to help build something that does exactly that...

I am as keen as many others to see the "drake" (cool name btw) - I love the idea of people building high end stuff like this themselves.

Our aim is to satisfy a niche for people who shoot HD quality stuff but we want to intercut it with Varicam/F900/Viper footage - rather than shooting the whole thing on the one camera - since I'm sceptical as to how "production-friendly" shooting everything digitally would be - in my experience a lot of the people on the scene (sound/post/video/camera op etc etc) are fairly old school and don't find it that easy to adjust to new stuff...

I have started another thread with some samples of our stuff...I apologise for posting to this one aswell - I just figured it was a worthwhile subject matter to add to the debate.

nick

<<<-- Originally posted by Rai Orz : Short news about DRAKE:

Timeline for presentation the whole system will be the 12.14.2004. -->>>

Yes...


Nick, good on you, their have been people complaining about his lack for a while.


About workflow on one camera, If it's low budget and the old timers have trouble adjusting, why not try to give a good young timer a break (with a bit of sup of course).

no problems with that...
 

I'm a young timer myself - if you look me up on imdb you'll see there's like 2 and a half credits only - so yeah I don't have any issues with people learning new skills...I just figure that the large part of the "market" - meaning people who would pay good cash to rent this stuff (the higher budget the better) are still using old school crew...

Nick

Yes, Nick you are on the right path.
Cine people hate video most of the times, and this doesn't apply only to the "oldies"......
Guys, think about it this way: Cine workflow has being working with not so big variations for more than a century..
More than a hundred years of experience all over the world would be difficult to defeat with a whole new way of doing things...
If it werent this way cars would be very different from what we have right now, isn't it?

agreed...
 

I look forward to the color camera tests (coming 2nd week december) - we will also be doing some matching tests all the way through to 35mm filmout with multiple film stocks...

will post all the results here...

Nick

A totally new way would overwhelm the traditionalist within a decade or so, as younger, or wiser heads, stampede to use it. Of course nobody here has a totally new way here yet. We still have a lense system to a projection plane on a tripod dolly etc, recording to a new media. Backend we have more progress, but still a series of images sliced together, even big movies are using digitsed frames on a NLE now. So all they are doing is moving their skills to the topend of the industry. This is only another opinion of course. One thing somebody once told me about computers, is that people resist cahnge until the benefits are approximately 10 times more, then they suddenly swap over. So basically, if we can make he benefis 10 times more (financially, stress, marketing (like 3D animation does) etc, we can get the sudden rush.

Cars are radically different from the first cars, they just don't fly, run or hop ;)

now I really feel like I've hijacked the thread...
 

which I totally didn't mean to...
but there's a cool book called Digital illusion (by Dodsworth) that I read a while back...

It talks about the dreaded "interactive entertainment" and what that implies for mass spaces (i.e. cinemas and amusement parks)

I actually think some of that stuff is totally legit - and am happy to be on the tech end moving into old-school cinema territory as opposed to the other way around...since that method is nearly impossible (resisting change is endemic to it - in my case - and many others on this board - wayne I assume included - we embrace it)

so long as we don't lose track of story we're doing and will win in the long run...

my car doesn't fly at all - but it does crush other things with it's 33inch wheels (and 9 inch suspension lift)

nick

Cars and cameras. Its nice to read...
The point is what Juan said: Cine people hate video..., and this doesnt apply only to the "oldies"..... I hate it too.
And cars? I, for my person, love olditimer. I hate new cars (new cars = video?)... But i love the new ARRI D20 and i love DRAKE too.
I like to talk about those stuff, but please, please not here.

1000fps, yes we also made tests with differnt high speed sensors, with little bit less fps, but with full 1280x720.
Nick, your clips look also like made with the MICRON CMOS Sensor MT9M413.
If everyone need high speed, Drake have a changeble camerahead, so its ready for differnt camera heads. Its only a question of $$$.

BTW. Look at the german WEINBERGER speed camera
http://www.cine-speedcam.com/

or a "low cost" camera (Low cost with "")
http://www.baslerweb.com/produkte/produkte_en_212.php

Rai,

About how much is the Basler you posted the link to?

cool post Rai...
 

the basler I think I saw somewhere for a few thousand bucks - but then you have to get a cameralink interface to external PC which is a bit of extra hassle...

we considered going that route but then we decided the better way would be to focus on the high-speed stuff...

Rai it's not the MT9M412 - that sensor maxes out at 500fps - the B&W model we were testing can do 1000fps full sensor - the color will be able to do that too (obviously increasing in fps as you lower the frame size)

The actual sensor is bigger (both physically and in pixel size) to the Weinberger link you posted....(those Germans always getting the head start - Vorsprung durch Technik etc etc - ha ha)
Cool link though.

The weinberger guys obviously have a developed product (though I don't know exactly how much use it is getting - will ask bandpro) - so our solution will end up as something like that (but with any luck at all - better and cheaper to use)

Nick

<<<-- Originally posted by Rai Orz : Cars and cameras. Its nice to read...
The point is what Juan said: Cine people hate video..., and this doesnt apply only to the "oldies"..... I hate it too.
And cars? I, for my person, love olditimer. I hate new cars (new cars = video?)... But i love the new ARRI D20 and i love DRAKE too.
I like to talk about those stuff, but please, please not here. -->>>

I can look for a Model T Ford for you, if you like ;)
(Give me a fully insured GT40, Lotus 7, Esprit. Elise, anyday rather than a Hyundia 2 door, actually a Ferrari wouldn't be to bad either).

I think the real trick is to get the balance right, of operation, workflow, and look/results. See nobody really wants to see a control that they don't use, they don't even really want to bother about a control that they sometimes use, or even worse "might use someday". So what you do is have different configurations, you set the default simple Cinema configuration at manufacture, and a number of others. Now, if somebody wants more advanced features then they can change the default to an advanced configuration, one for Cinema, one for hispeed, one for Eng etc, or they can play around and setup their own, turning off features they don't want. So a cinema person might only ever use a cinema configuration (maybe a advanced cinema too). But if your a person that switches between very different jobs, you can swap between different advanced configurations suitable for the job, and so forth. In effect keeping the functionality and controls tight for what you want. For Cinema people that means that they only have to worry about selecting a simple or complex configuration. (Please note: if I have any exclusive Intellectural Property rights here I reserve them, other wise I make this a general public statement so nobody else can take a valid patent out on it (slight issue with patent laws, ask patent attourney).

Now Nick, you are fortunate with the High speed stuff because it is such an special effect. After recent films like the the Matrix etc, people are so dazzeled by the effect that they accept the optical mismatch between the high speed camera and the main camera as part of the effect. So this makes it easy, they might even accept discoloured, contrasty, burned out SD raw upscaled as part of the coolness of the effect (720p preffered in 1080+ film). This means a lot less effort has to be put in to choosing chips etc.

<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : they accept the optical mismatch between the high speed camera and the main camera as part of the effect. So this makes it easy, they might even accept discoloured, contrasty, burned out SD raw upscaled as part of the coolness of the effect (720p preffered in 1080+ film). This means a lot less effort has to be put in to choosing chips etc. -->>>

I agree that sometimes the effect overshadows the quality - I saw Blade 3 yesterday (Vancouver crew screening - not because I was crew but a friend gave me a ticket) - and some of the slomo stuff in that was fairly grainy but by the time you add the sound effects (which of course are often albeit absurdly - NOT slowed down) then the magic is complete...

Regardless to all this - I am definitely excited to see the drake and look forward to the official website becoming available (including rental rates etc once that gets running)

Nick

news
 

Yesterday we had a meeting at Swiss Effects in Zurich and will hold a 35mm print in our hands by next week. Their high end Quantel Digital Intermidiate equipment made a unbelievable 1080p uprez. We compared it to other 1080p material and to scanned 35mm material on class 1 screens... I think we did a good job. Colors are low, as we know, pushing the capabilities of the grading system to the hard limits, but being still within what is doable.
Buttom Line: IBIS5-A can be turned into a digital cinema camera. Future Chips will perform better, but today this Chip can do the job in a affordable way. In the end it counts what the 35mm print looks like and we recieved two thumbs up from the high end pro's at Swiss Effects.
(Check our their page at www.swisseffects.ch)

To everybody from Germany or at least central europe:
On december 10. we will introduce our drake system to the public at a filmmaker congress in Halle (near Leipzig). Check out their webpage for details (in german)

http://www.filmnachwuchs.net/

We will show our baby with a decent beamer in live operation and also show the color graded material and will show up with the team to answer questions and give everybody the opportunity to try the camera out.

For everybody who can't come we will shoot a video about the event.

By the way, we think about showing up at Sundance in January. We check if we can organize and afford it. If yes this would be a opportunity for the U.S. folks to dance with a drake. We'll see.

Greets
Markus

Hi guys,

I have been following the thread for some time now and I just feel like joining :)

I fail to understand what the fuss about 720p versus 1080p is all about. 720p produces incredible images, I saw varicam prints that blew me away, to me, it is more than sufficient. Also, it uses much less bandwidth, witch is a very important advantage. 8bit is more likely the problem to me, 10 bits uses 1.25 times the space of 8 bits but offers 4 times the number of image increments, it is very relevant. On the other hand, I must say that every other project (other than Drake) is behind if we look at workflow and results, I followed Obin's work and it is good for stills, but far from a good moving images solution for the moment. The images from the Drake system speak for themselves, no need to argue about it, they have a working camera and nobody else on this forum has shown any other convincing arguments that they have. I am sure that, in a few years, 1080p will be within our grasp (to a workable level that is) but I want a camera now, not in 3 years and certainly not too pricey either.

My point is that the IBIS5-A can be used for indies with incredible results and it is available here and now at a resolution we can afford to work with. I must congradulate the Drake team on their incredible achievement.

Some inside details about DRAKE´s bit depth:

12, 10 or 8 Bit?

1.) DRAKE have build in white balance.
(If you capture without white balance, you must corrected it in post. But this cost up to 2Bits)

2.) We use a (programmable) lookup table to reduce the white balanced pictures from 10 Bits to 8Bits.

At the end, we write 8Bit to harddisk, but with mutch more informations. We can also say, DRAKE captured with 10or12Bit,
its just a way of compression.

Re: news
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Markus Rupprecht : By the way, we think about showing up at Sundance in January. We check if we can organize and afford it. If yes this would be a opportunity for the U.S. folks to dance with a drake. We'll see.

Greets
Markus -->>>

As your showing German technology and innovation with a first "wonder" camera, maybe you can apply to government trade agency, or film agency, or research and developement agency, for a grant to take and show off your camera at Sundance (good business).

Maybe you can also even get a grant to come to the Australian "Cairns" film festival, and I can drive down the road and see you ;).

Im dissapionted the IBIS5A doesn't have the extra colour and light pickup, are they ever going to improve that chip?

Wayne.

Wasn't the web site suppose to be up today.

Just wondering what the link to it is?

Thanks

Did i just hear an HO HO HO...?
Maybe HD-Santa is coming by soon, I mean only, if we have been good kids, have you guys?
My wish for this year: A small camera that makes biiiiiiiiiig pictures ;o]

That's what I thought, but all I can find is the complete presentation being on the 14th.

By the way Rai, over the other thread it looks like Sumix is using a new version of the IBIS5 with supposedly big improvements. Any plans to use a new version of the chip on the Drake if it becomes available?

and no news ???
 

Today 13th of december on http://www.filmnachwuchs.net/
nothing about Drake a page with no no no information
no forum about this hot future indie cam !!!

Quote
-----------------------------------------------------
To everybody from Germany or at least central europe:
On december 10. we will introduce our drake system to the public at a filmmaker congress in Halle (near Leipzig). Check out their webpage for details (in german)

http://www.filmnachwuchs.net/

We will show our baby with a decent beamer in live operation and also show the color graded material and will show up with the team to answer questions and give everybody the opportunity to try the camera out.
___________________________________

as it is German nothing on slashcam or hackermovies so what is going on ??

Yes, I remember that, the date give in the thread here was the 14th for the presentation, so I don't know.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rai Orz : Short news about DRAKE:
Timeline for presentation the whole system will be the 12.14.2004. -->>>

This will be tomorrow...

Please let me clear some things: People on dvinfo talk since long time about (home made) hd-cameras. Long time ago, some guys said: "We will have THE best solution, just wait for tomorrow..." Also long time ago, they said, altasens will be the best chip and it came out next mounth. This was in june, in september again and now they talk about march...

BTW: Who saw a motion picture from a altasens chip with a fast wide angle cine lens in front of it? Remember, altasens will have only rolling shutter and microlenses. Two very bad things for cinema.

In the meantime DRAKE work.

But dont forget: A camera head + storage solution is just one part of the way. Long time ago some people talk about costs of complete systems. Take just a look a www.chrosziel.com and add the prices of support rig + 16:9 mattebox + follow focus system. Round $ 5000,- only for that?
Now, i can say: Drake will have also all those parts include.

Since friday we have a first 35mm blow up. Amazing! Cine grade post software is also available. Ser. production (mechanical parts) start this week, so DRAKE will be available in Feb. 2005.

Future points: We work on differnt chip solutions. (also 3 chips for best colors) up to full optical 35mm size. Upgrade options.

@Wayne: You know, i wrote you also the 3 ibis chip idea in the past, because the ibis5 MONO version is a low light sensation. We talk about this direct with cypress (fillfactory), they know what we made with drake and what we will made in the future.

@Ronald: I saw you not there, why? It was a good live forum, not a internet forum. Slashcam is a forum for dv user, not for cine. But you will find informations on hackermovies and others, just wait.

The rolling shutter on the altasens is so fast as to be a non isue. I think microslense are good (for gathering extra light) but I also want to use very very fast lense system :(. One of my ideas I am to be working on can also get past the microlense problem and make it a complete solution (don't ask still o be investigated, conract only).

I have links to building your own equipment (D.I.Y) sites, so all these things canbe done for less than 10th, or less, of price of cinema equipment. So for bottom budget equipment only the camera/capture systems matters, along with edit system, if cinerella can't be used. I have seen some amazing stuff done for hundreds of dollers + equipment, so equipment costs matters a lot at this level. The only unaviodable part (for now) is film transfer, marketing and distribution, but if I have something really good I should be able to convinve somebody to invest, or distributor, otherwise talk to video market. So I am looking for cheap*good camera. FEB is a longtime too, I hought it would be in production this mointh?

<<<-- Originally posted by Rai Orz :
@Wayne: You know, i wrote you also the 3 ibis chip idea in the past, because the ibis5 MONO version is a low light sensation. We talk about this direct with cypress (fillfactory), they know what we made with drake and what we will made in the future.
-->>>

I remember speaking about the IBIS, but not any thing about the IBIS5 mono being a low light sensation, or even a three chip version of it. For my piece of mind, is there a newer version than the IBIS5A, and how is it better in M version than what we have seen. Is the FEB release because of a newer version? I have seen their technology page, and not all features are in the IBIS5 yet, the intergrated memory thing would significantly increase global/rolling shutter light pickup. There was something about gain or lattitude as well, that would make the IBIS5 a good chip to work with. Still I have tried to calculate their values using the maximun "-e" cell satutation value as the basis of the calculation and I think the niose issues need to be significantly improved, because if my calculations are correct there will be 4 bits of niose range at 36db gain on an 8bit image (that doesn't quiet sound right maybe I have got my figures mixed up) pluss some other things like dark current etc. So for low light work it will probably be a lot more niosy than Altasens, in normal optimal lighting with 0 gain I think there would be niose in the lowest bit of 10 bits. But fix pattern niose is .5% which should mean that at least the lowest bit of 8 bit should be affected. Am I reading these specs right, or is the situation a lo better?


I wait tommorrow with baited breath, it doesn't matter too much which camera I buy, as long as it suites me.

Hey folks,

Don't blame us for not making it our first priority to update this forum. We have a simple motto: work first, talk later.

Everybody had the chance to show up in Leipzig. Some did and we hat a great time there, doing real time color correction, showing the material on a big HDTV beamer and playing around with the 35mm print.

For everybody who couldn't come, here are some Drake pictures, showing the prototype. The final case will be ready in January, be titanium and dark blue, everything else will look rather identical. What you can't see is the focus pulling device, it's currently being prepared for the big shooting in 4 days. And the handles are missing, so I uploaded the 3D concept images, where you can see them. The big screen is detachable and can be mounted on a tripod or whatever. New job for the camera assistant, to see where the best position for the screen is for each shot.

Expect some interesting video clips about the usage of the camera on set in early january and please be patient if you have emailed me with questions. It'll take a few days but I will answer them all.

Greets
Markus

www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake.jpg
www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake_and_Rai.jpg
www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake_back.jpg
www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake_Glas2.jpg
www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake_Glas3.jpg

Wow that is a very big cam

I could not come Leipzig is about 2000 Km and Airfrance to Paris way expensive from Paris it will be cheap but trains are on same sort of strike so no way to go to Paris

have fun

I would prefer the camera be black. Maybe because that's the color of most cameras.

I've found on some shoots that some actors freak out when they don't see something that looks normal to them. Even though they have no clue in heck what goes on behind the camera.

My comments exactly. It is a bit dark to see, but we see Ria, finally ;). I was going to say being big is allright as long as it's light, but boy that is big. After seeing the picture, I would say throw in some nice pro curves, and rounded edges. If it looks as good, or better than any modern PRO ENG camera, you should do alright, once the extra controls are on there will look good.

Are you planning on using the same case for upgrades?

Re-edit

Hold it, there is a game controller on the top of that, is this what I think it is?

varicam killer
 

looks good rai and markus. do you have a estimated price for this yet

Guys,

there it is, the first DIY HDcam! And what are the first comments:
Hm, it's big, can I have mine in black with some rounded edges?
And where was that post saying: "FEB, i thought i could buy it for x-mas!!!" Guys! Come on! I just thought: why the hell wasn't I in Leibzig!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rai and Markus: Hut ab und herzlichen Glückwunsch!

Anyone wondering why they wait till 2005 with the release besides manufacturing issues, here are my 2c:

What would be better for promoting your new HDcam than a 5 minute preview of a LOTR style(?) movie shot with it?
And how the news will talk about a movie, someone especially built a camera for...

Someone has big plans here, someone who couldn't care less about his camera looking PRO ENG, no offence Wayne...

Rai and Markus, so far you kept your promisses, guess we'll have a price for the drake tomorrow...?

btw, can you play Doom on that viewfinder during light changes;-)