Merry X'mas all

Markus / Rai,

Great work, I seriously think I found my next cam for making indie films... I've spent a lot of money on the mini35, 35mm lenses and most recently the XL2 but your 1280x720 motion picture images put it all to shame I feel. ; )

Is a trailer or teaser available yet from the footage which so far has been shot? I've been to the website but have not found one.

I look forward to reading more about your film and progress with the HD cam.

Any update yet?

I actually have a producer chomping at me, he wants to purchase this camera in order to produce a movie.

So yuh?

Zac

Actually, I've seen some PAL HD footage from the Sony FX1 which also really looks amazing. And next month the Sony HVR-Z1 for only $1000 more will offer both PAL and NTSC shooting modes along with DVCAM mode a more reliable "drop out" free stream.

http://www.starcentral.ca/images/bd/...0xPAL_5mbs.wmv

I know this is compressed video, but also it's a WMV file with a 5Mbps datarate and it looks great - perhaps not a bad option for shooting HD, especially if you need the portability.

Still Waiting *yawn*

Drake System
 

Wow nice Images, are you using the Basler 622f camera?
Curious, Keep up the Great work!

I think they are using a IBIS5-A from FillFactory.
Basler cameras, especially the larger ones are quite expensive.

It has been almost two months since we last heard anything on
this project.... did they get kidnapped by Panavision or Sony or...?

Have they released yet, details, price? Is the website up? This Altasens thing has dragged on for too long, I think I might even settle for one little boosted IBIS5a cheap.

Wayne.

Last I understood this cam won't be exactly "cheap" Wayne...
(ofcourse that is how you define cheap, it's cheap for what it
can potentially deliver, however I doubt it will be available for
under $5K).

Wayne and Rob,
I don't know what the other people are charging, but our IBIS-5A camera (just the head with interface) is cheap enough that you could get the camera on GigE or camera link, cables, power supply, frame grabber or ethernet I/F, and a PC for under $5K. Recording software will be $1500 unless you roll your own. I still say the SI-3300 (Micron) is a better camera for cinema overall.

Steve: thanks for the support! I know the IBIS is "cheap", but these
guys talked about a complete system with mattebox, and I believe
screen and all sort of other stuff. From the feeling I got they wanted
to sell complete packages instead of just the software for example.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : I still say the SI-3300 (Micron) is a better camera for cinema overall. -->>>

Why do you say that?

Steve, I checked out your website and it sure looks like there is a lot of cool stuff there that might help people in this forum out.

Do you have (or are you developing) any camera/pc/software solutions that can use interchangeable lenses and would be good choices for indie moviemakers?

Joel,
I've been pretty vocal about this. The IBIS-5A looks good on paper, especially with an external 12 bit A/D, but the color is more washed out, there is much more FPN and if you use it in global shutter mode at 24fps, you don't get much integration time.

The SI-3300 can do 1920x1080, has lower noise and about the same sensitivity. On the down-side it is rolling shutter and a smaller sensor so you get deeper DOF.

Our cameras use C mount lenses. There are tons of great optics out there for some of the 16mm cameras. Right now the software side is still "roll your own" of get good cinema tools. Obin, Rob S. and others are working on this.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : Joel,
I've been pretty vocal about this.

The SI-3300 can do 1920x1080, has lower noise and about the same sensitivity. On the down-side it is rolling shutter and a smaller sensor so you get deeper DOF.
-->>>

Thanks for the information Steve. I know I'm looking for a nice combination of tonal range and shallower depth of field...like everyone else I suppose ;-)

I guess I'll keep watching and waiting until I can become an early adopter of a system that really puts a better result in my editing software. I think there's a big market out there for this stuff.

Hey folks, sorry, for the long waiting period.

I would like to communicate first some fundamental news:

- The DRAKE system is ready for sales.

- The whole "DRAKE Story" will publishes in a magazine. But, because they have exclusive rights, we can not now publish all details here.

-Due to multiple suggestions we added some details.

- New: Power Backfocus. A remote controlled, servo driven focus system that also change every lens in macro lens (also vario zooms at each focal length)

- New: Second view finder device. (also Wireless PAL / NTSC out)

-The DRAKE camera head can insert in the DRAKE budy, only with one single klick. With a second klick a support rag incl. matebox and other things can mounted to the camera head. Now, you can dismount the head with a klick (with or without mounted support rag), connect it with a cable (up to 10m with a single cable and up to 80m with power cable) and use it like a small dv camera. In this mode, you can also use a 5, 7 or 8" TFT, video view finder or what ever (PAL NTSC or XGA) to controll all things.

BTW: Drake use the newest IBIS5 Senser, but not a standart industrial camera head. As Steve Nordhauser said: "The IBIS-5A looks good on paper..." but we found, there is no camera, no SUMIX and no Silicon Images camera, to use all the IBIS5 power. Together with a local manufacter we build a new DRAKE camera head. Sorry, it is not only a head. It is a "stand alone camera". Inside, there is fist a controll unit with MC/FGA and second a sensor unit, only with a sensor plate, but with a power slided backfocus unit. So we are ready to change the sensor plate, yes, only the sensor plate!!! (As i said, we also make tests with micron an other sensors, but till now IBIS is the best if you use all tricks).

Thanks for that, how long before you can tell us price, or other details (and which Journal should we read)?

Wayne.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : The IBIS-5A looks good on paper, especially with an external 12 bit A/D, but the color is more washed out, there is much more FPN and if you use it in global shutter mode at 24fps, you don't get much integration time.

The SI-3300 can do 1920x1080, has lower noise and about the same sensitivity. On the down-side it is rolling shutter and a smaller sensor so you get deeper DOF.
-->>>

FPN: FPN are more or less or defect sensity pixels. Every sensor came with FPN. Every video camera too. But there are ways to correct FPN. Some sensor chips have inside FPN corrections, other cameras do it on board. You must know, on chip corrected FPN is not even the best way. As a good or bad bayer filter, there are good or bad FPN corrections. The IBIS5 show more FPN, because there is no on chip correction. But if you write a good software and do a good adjustment you can absolute eliminate all FPN. We do this in our DRAKE camera head like some video cameras do it and it work mutch better than other on sensor solutions. SUMIX do it not, or not good, with there IBS5, the pictures were not usable, maybe SI have the same problem.

"...don't get much integration time...": Nonsense! Read the paper and compare. There is NO OTHER WAY for cinema pictures and to get real movie camera motion blur: You need the same fps and exposure times like a movie camera. Movie cameras shoot at 24fps. But the exposed time is a little bit, not mutch!, shorter, because the shutter is close while film is slide to next picture.
At global shutter, the IBIS exposed at one time, and than, (lets say, the electronic shutter stop exposed) the data can read out. But this time is, if we read only 1280x720Pixel, like the time a movie camera do it. So why to hell every one say it dont work, if we shoot a big movie with it?

-rolling shutter: The only way to make it unvisible is to shoot stills without motion, or expose with extreme short times (but than you must have suns of light)
But the main bad thing is: You never have motion blur. It will be like high speed sport videos.

Is it possible to hold integration for 24th a second and then have a high speed rolling shutter readout to eliminate the effect?

I think this long process, and he many hours, are wearing us down a bit.

Rai,
I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers - I'm impressed that you have a completed project and have gotten the best from an IBIS-5A.

My take on the FPN is that if you do it on chip, on the analog side of the sensor, you can maintain most of your dynamic range. We do it digitally - both offset and up to a two point gain correction. If the offset is 200 counts for a pixel, you subtract that. You have lost 200 from your total range. Sure you can stretch the data back out to the clipping level.

We have found that the electronic global shutter leaks - maybe 1.5%. We have seen some smearing during readout if you have a bright spot in the image.

I am guessing you have tweaked the readout time to the point where the column amplifiers and shift registers start groaning to extend the exposure time as long as possible.

As you have said, doing a feature film is a great test. One question to ask is "how much of the film is shot with a solid understanding of the differences of this camera from other cameras?" Meaning, you understand the limitations and differences and compensate - have you made it automatic enough for a filmmaker without that understanding?

I have no problems with your suceeding - indies need all the breaks they can get considering the ways the large camera manufacturers have treated them. I think that I am just explaining why we have been shipping IBIS-5 and 5A cameras for two years and don't like them for this application. You have provided the first commercial option. Again, congrats.

@Rai
Which magazine should we read?
Kameramann? Digital Production? US/English ones?
You said the Drake is ready for sale, so when and where?
I don't know how Drachenfeder will turn out, but at least when it comes to marketing strategies you guys could't beat Hitchcock in creating suspense ;o]
keep on keeeping on!
XXX

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : Rai,
I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers - I'm impressed that you have a completed project and have gotten the best from an IBIS-5A. -->>>

Thanks Steve.

<<<-- My take on the FPN is that if you do it on chip, on the analog side of the sensor, you can maintain most of your dynamic range. We do it digitally - both offset and up to a two point gain correction.... -->>>

Right, we do it also digital but not only a 2 point gain correction. We use a complex realtime software solution. For your inside understanding: We can also eleminate completly the 10times more FPN from the LUPA4000 sensor.

<<<--We have found that the electronic global shutter leaks - maybe 1.5%. We have seen some smearing during readout if you have a bright spot in the image. -->>>

Leaks, yes a little bit. Smearing, no. Other you use a to long cable between sensor and MC board. Okay, we also had smearing on hot spots with our first bad sensor plate layout. After we change it, its okay.

...

<<<--As you have said, doing a feature film is a great test. One question to ask is "how much of the film is shot with a solid understanding of the differences of this camera from other cameras?" Meaning, you understand the limitations and differences and compensate - have you made it automatic enough for a filmmaker without that understanding? -->>>

Oh, i must clear this: At the beginning, we started with setups like frankensteins laboratory. The programmer wrote codes while mechanical people make mouts etc.. All on set. After that, it was a learning by doing time. Mechanic, electronic and software build day by day a better system. Than came the time, we stand in the backgroung while other people start work with it, without ever see the system before. Its just easy now, because the development time is over.

<<<--I have no problems with your suceeding - indies need all the breaks they can get considering the ways the large camera manufacturers have treated them. I think that I am just explaining why we have been shipping IBIS-5 and 5A cameras for two years and don't like them for this application. You have provided the first commercial option. Again, congrats. -->>>

...pictures are the answer... As i siad: We testet mutch more than only camera heads with IBIS sensors and the IBIS5 produced the best movie pictures, but only after changing the hardware.
And be shure, we go on with sensor testing, because our hardware is ready to change sensors. We will also test altasens. But all i know, it will be not my longtime future favorit, because at the end of this year i see a 1080p solution with real 35mm size (no details, till it is ready).
But at the moment, we see no better sensor for our camera.

Thanks again.

Just my two cents about professionals understanding their tool's limitations:
Cinema cameras are not automatic in any way, or at least if they are that is as an option to the operator (who 98% of the time won't use it).
Professionals Do understand and know the features and limitations of the camera and lenses they are using.That is why they are called professionals, need years of experience and get well paid for it :).
So when you start shooting a feature length film, you have decided about all the equipment you will use knowing what are the pros and cons of it.

Rai, I have been 'out of touch' with this thread for quite some time. Have you posted any high bit rate of footage from this camera yet? Perhaps media9 at 10 megabits per second?

You must have a lot of memory onboard to do multi-point. Fix pattern noise correction!

-Les

I have just been comparing figures between the Altasens and Ibis again (yet to figure out their FFQE vs QE of Altasens).

On paper it appears that the IBIS is quiet good, and better than the Micron 1300, but various pictures (posted by Ben before Drake came along) appear quiet noisy, dull, murky and washout a bit, compared to the vibrant, detailed, colourful pictures from the Micron 1300 chip (which I think is only better than a PD170 in real picture quality (to me, looking past the brightened colours).

So the question is, are those figures quoted at Fill factory for internal or external ADC circuits, or is it the filter?

Looking at the Lupa 4000 as well, interesting.

I know that you want to go a different path Rai, but at Tomshardware's report on the Linux desktop summit, I saw a dual (? core) VIA processor, in small case. This would be 2W fro 2Ghz, and I would not be surprised if it didn't turn up on a Nano ITX board soon. That might be interesting for the Drake.

What is the name of the movie again, and where can I download your trailer?

Don't worry about my rantings, just going stir loopy a bit to pick a camera.

Wayne,
yes, Ben had posted bad pictures form a SUMIX IBIS5 camera. At that time, we also made tests with exact the same camera, but with the new ISIS5a version. And we also made tests with cameras with MICRON chips. Look at bens clips (if they are online?) The fist thing you see is the dramatic bad thing with rolling shutters. You must know, IBIS can work in rolling and in global shutter mode, but SUMIX cameras support only rolling shutter. Next thing are colors. Basic thing on bayer filters are one red pixel, one blue, but two greens. You must correct this 2 time greens. Some sensors do it more ore less good on chip, the IBIS need external hard or software. Next point are on chip gain controll. Most sensors have only one gain controll pin. IBIS have a lot of it, but mostly cameras dont support this pins. Dont ask me why. And the list go on...
This means not, IBIS is our sensor to the end of time. No, this means, we will do more tests with other sensors (on sensor levels, not only with camera heads).

LUPA4000: lets talk about it, but in your Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Technical Discussion thread

Rai: I'm wondering how you guys are doing with audio sync. There
always seems to be lots of problems when recording audio on a
different system like DAT to keep it in sync on longer shots etc.

How are you guys recording audio? Does it stay in sync?

@Rob,
DRAKE dont record audio. We use external DAT.
Because we triger the sensor by a simple quartz clock, each picture snapshoot is exact on time. So it run absolute synchronized with audio, also on longer shots. Its the same like movie cameras do it.

Hmmm, interesting. Thanks for answering Rai!

<<<-- Originally posted by Christian Schmitt : @Rai
Which magazine should we read?
Kameramann? Digital Production? US/English ones? You said the Drake is ready for sale, so when and where? I don't know how Drachenfeder will turn out, but at least when it comes to marketing strategies you guys could't beat Hitchcock in creating suspense ;o] keep on keeeping on! XXX -->>>

@Christian Schmitt
You can read it in the April issue of "CUT - das Broadcastmagazin"

@Andreas
Wie konnt ich nur die CUT vergessen... Immer wieder gern gelesen! Bist du da nicht Redakteur? Dein Name kommt mir zumindest bekannt vor...

And when will the english speaking audience get their sneakpreview on the DRAKE...?

I thought it was in a latter magazine? If anybody can post a link we can google translate it.

Rai, a good idea for your system is to put a reprint of the article on the Drake website for promotion.

Thanks

Wayne.

Final Prototype
 

Hi folks!

long time, no see.
We were busy, doing our homework and preparing for Cannes. I think you might like DRAKE V2, so I post some pictures of it. The size is half of the original prototype, it now can be operated with a small or a big screen, or both (preview and menue windows scaled in realtime to both screens), battery goes into the case and a ton of new featuers have been included.

The webpage should be online by end of next week, hopefully in english, too.

www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake1_s.jpg
www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake2_s.jpg

Cheers
Markus

Markus, are you going to put in a viewfinder?

When I operate a camera I like looking through it. To me it shuts out the rest of the world so that I can just get into shooting and not see any outside distractions.

It looks awesome Rai! Like one of the big machines! Hell, it´s a big machine to play in the high leagues!

Gary i know to have a viewfinder and look inside is like the moment of concentration for tennis players when they bounce the ball a couple of times. But it doen´t have to be there, specially if it increase the price. It´s question of practise a little of trascendental meditation before framing and ask for the help of camera spirits to have a good take.

Has the article come out yet? is there any translation to english somewhere?

Yes, I like this design compared to the last version, looks more like a classic series in the making. Kinetta(??) should start being worried. I think this one looks more like a cinema camera, and the Kinetta like an odd camcorder.

I give it the Big Wink ;)

Viewfinder
 

@Ivan,
In general, viewfinder is no problem. Now, scince we solved the problem of displaying 720p full resolution on one viewing device and downscaled in a good quality on another viewing device both in realtime at the same time, there can be all sorts of combinations. It's just that we couldn't find a decent viewfinder >PAL resolution yet for a reasonable price.

@Wayne,
good to hear that you like the new design. All the questions and wishlists by the community were really helpful to improve the thing up to this point. The concept is still modular, the sensor head can still be detached (no more sweat, operating a steadycam) and we can now work with our experiences and the software on future sensors. So I guess, this is the first upgradable camera been build...

Cheers
Markus

Has it built in hard drive? How about 35 mm adapter? Will you build it with Altasens CMOS? How much will it cost?

Radek

Markus,
I have got a nice :) email from Rai. I replied but he is busy (like always). Contact me off list please since it will take forever for him to check his mailbox.

<<<-- Originally posted by Markus Rupprecht :
(no more sweat, operating a steadycam) and we can now work with our experiences and the software on future sensors. So I guess, this is the first upgradable camera been build... -->>>

Yes, classic, it is good to have equipment you like keeping for life (like the old days).