Another Letus "detail" test

Chris Barcellos · April 11th, 2007, 02:25 PM

Steven:

Sorry, if you believe I went OT. Thought red issue was part of the detail issue. I wondered if it was a 24 p or Letus issue. I have not dealt with anything that pronouced on my Sony VX2000 or FX1 in past.

In general the video and detail is spectacular even with the adapter. My question in the previous post was raised because I'm just wondering if you think the 35mm adapter of any type has gone far enough to get you something as spectacular as your high definition footage for instance that you posted a few months back from Yellowstone.

Eric Weiss · April 11th, 2007, 02:29 PM

i've shot some really oversaturated reds on at least a dozen DV cams and never experienced anything close to that. i don't find it acceptable at all. who's comfortable dropping $4K on a cam only to "avoid" certain reds? i'm shooting in mexico like 1/3 of the year. it's basically impossible.

toot sweet, the first "red" thing i'd shoot would be the blood of that salesman.

now i have to go test a bunch of friggin' red BS things on this A1 while I still have the opportunity to return it.

Steven Dempsey · April 11th, 2007, 02:30 PM

No, it wouldn't be that good. I think I will use it for more narrative stuff when I get to doing it. I will also be using it for medium and closeups of wildlife and landscapes. It will depend on the situation basically. I think it brings a unique feel to the frame so I'll more than likely experiment with it a lot to see what happens.

Steven Dempsey · April 11th, 2007, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Weiss

i've shot some really oversaturated reds on at least a dozen DV cams and never experienced anything close to that. i don't find it acceptable at all. who's comfortable dropping $4K on a cam only to "avoid" certain reds? i'm shooting in mexico like 1/3 of the year. it's basically impossible.

toot sweet, the first "red" thing i'd shoot would be the blood of that salesman.

now i have to go test a bunch of friggin' red BS things on this A1 while I still have the opportunity to return it.

Eric,

There are certain reds with certain values that do not do well on HDV/DV. If you go over to the PRESET LIBRARY thread, you will see that I took a shot of my son in a red baseball shirt and it did fine. It's like a bass frequency and the way one in particular would cause the speaker to vibrate momentarily. All other frequencies, including very similar ones do not react this way.

Also, if you are going to encounter a lot of reds in your shot, you would need to take the color gain way down anyway as a general rule. You can pump it up again in post.

Eric Weiss · April 11th, 2007, 02:50 PM

Oh, I'm fully aware. Further, people welcome the feeling of a vibrating bass.
This is completely different.

When I said "I'm shooting in Mexico 1/3 of the year" ..I meant that
I have been for several years and will continue to do so. I will know in a few moments as to what cam I will be doing it with.

I'm actually lining up a bunch of "red" things right now. lol.

I've been shooting for probably 15 years and DV for at least 10. I find it really hard to believe that I've just never run across "that red."

On your latest post it's orange, red, and dark red. I really can't believe you accept this and pass it off as "nature of the format."

Steven Dempsey · April 11th, 2007, 02:54 PM

I pass this off as something that was not unexpected when I was using a preset that intensifies colors to the extent VIVIDRGB combined with Nikon lenses does.

For me to shoot something planned with the same setup, I would use one of the flatter presets and this would not be a problem. I have shot quite a lot of reds with the Letus using my XLH1 with no problems.

So what I am accepting is that there is a problem in general with how HDV and DV formats handle some kinds of reds. Most of them are acceptable if not cranked to the max like I have done.

Does that make sense?

If you look at Canon's promo video for the XHA1, you will see that there are lots of reds in many shots and they do fine.

Eric Weiss · April 11th, 2007, 03:19 PM

Indeed. In fact - the letus, nikon, preset combo is what I was attributing it to ( or the encoding ) until Chris posted his "bucket" and Will informed us about his Xl2. So now I'm concerned.

Steven Dempsey · April 11th, 2007, 03:28 PM

Okay, let us know the results of your own tests.

Eric Weiss · April 11th, 2007, 04:42 PM

Wow, it seems like it's a 24fps thing.

I gathered a lot of red items and just found but one, the grip on my pliers, that pulsed at an unacceptable level..but only in 24f! Some other shades were slightly noisy. In 60i they were all solid.

Which would explain the debate - hence, "24 fps, always." and "The A1 is my first 24f cam."

Chris and Will, were you shooting in 24 as well?

Since I never experienced anything like this on my Xl1-S or GL2 - but Will did on the XL2, 24fps would again explain it.

I went through all of the presets, including Wolfgang's, which takes the red really over the top. In 60i it's awesome. Everything looked pretty good.

I'm relieved. I mainly shoot 60i.

Marlon Torres · April 11th, 2007, 05:02 PM

I shoot 24f all the time and never had trouble with reds, even ridiculously saturated ones.

Chris Barcellos · April 11th, 2007, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Weiss

Wow, it seems like it's a 24fps thing.

Which would explain the debate - hence, "24 fps, always." and "The A1 is my first 24f cam."

Chris and Will, were you shooting in 24 as well?

.

Yes. With my new 24p rig, the HV20. This was my first 24p use with the adapters. Before that I was Sony Fx1 60i

Will Griffith · April 12th, 2007, 06:35 AM

We shot 24p exclusively with the XL2.

There seemed to be one particular shade of red that caused problems.
Usually it was something around 255 Red (in photoshop your RGB
values are Red: 0-255 Green: 0-255 Blue: 0-255) so it's only the most vivid
of Reds. I believe we fixed it by just adjusting the red saturation
in our presets, but every once and awhile it would give us trouble.

Eric Weiss · April 12th, 2007, 10:52 AM

well, i think we have found it. will can even pinpoint it.

what's interesting is that it is consistant across 3 different Canon cams.

it took me quite a bit of "reds" to get that pulse.
one item out of roughly two dozen. reds that did not
pulse could also be "ridiculously saturated" as marlon stated.

i think the letus and the preset may increase that artifact over a wider range of colors.

Chris Barcellos · April 14th, 2007, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Weiss

well, i think we have found it. will can even pinpoint it.

what's interesting is that it is consistant across 3 different Canon cams.

it took me quite a bit of "reds" to get that pulse.
one item out of roughly two dozen. reds that did not
pulse could also be "ridiculously saturated" as marlon stated.

i think the letus and the preset may increase that artifact over a wider range of colors.

Check this one out. The toy car behind looks like it is greenscreened against girls pants:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Y2763PSV

Has anybody found difference in 24p v. 60I

Eric Weiss · April 14th, 2007, 08:34 AM

yikes! i don't get anything like that in 60i.

what was your shutter speed?

default on the A1 at 24f is 1/24. I'd like to try some red tests again
at 1/48 and see if that makes any difference.

April 11th, 2007, 02:25 PM	#16
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Steven: Sorry, if you believe I went OT. Thought red issue was part of the detail issue. I wondered if it was a 24 p or Letus issue. I have not dealt with anything that pronouced on my Sony VX2000 or FX1 in past. In general the video and detail is spectacular even with the adapter. My question in the previous post was raised because I'm just wondering if you think the 35mm adapter of any type has gone far enough to get you something as spectacular as your high definition footage for instance that you posted a few months back from Yellowstone. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

April 11th, 2007, 02:30 PM	#18
Steven Dempsey Disjecta Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 937	No, it wouldn't be that good. I think I will use it for more narrative stuff when I get to doing it. I will also be using it for medium and closeups of wildlife and landscapes. It will depend on the situation basically. I think it brings a unique feel to the frame so I'll more than likely experiment with it a lot to see what happens. __________________ Try my Digital Therapy: http://www.pinelakefilms.com/digital_therapy.html Films on ExposureRoom: http://exposureroom.com/members/disjecta.aspx/videos/

April 11th, 2007, 02:54 PM	#21
Steven Dempsey Disjecta Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 937	I pass this off as something that was not unexpected when I was using a preset that intensifies colors to the extent VIVIDRGB combined with Nikon lenses does. For me to shoot something planned with the same setup, I would use one of the flatter presets and this would not be a problem. I have shot quite a lot of reds with the Letus using my XLH1 with no problems. So what I am accepting is that there is a problem in general with how HDV and DV formats handle some kinds of reds. Most of them are acceptable if not cranked to the max like I have done. Does that make sense? If you look at Canon's promo video for the XHA1, you will see that there are lots of reds in many shots and they do fine. __________________ Try my Digital Therapy: http://www.pinelakefilms.com/digital_therapy.html Films on ExposureRoom: http://exposureroom.com/members/disjecta.aspx/videos/

April 11th, 2007, 03:28 PM	#23
Steven Dempsey Disjecta Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 937	Okay, let us know the results of your own tests. __________________ Try my Digital Therapy: http://www.pinelakefilms.com/digital_therapy.html Films on ExposureRoom: http://exposureroom.com/members/disjecta.aspx/videos/

April 12th, 2007, 06:35 AM	#27
Will Griffith Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tennessee Posts: 164	We shot 24p exclusively with the XL2. There seemed to be one particular shade of red that caused problems. Usually it was something around 255 Red (in photoshop your RGB values are Red: 0-255 Green: 0-255 Blue: 0-255) so it's only the most vivid of Reds. I believe we fixed it by just adjusting the red saturation in our presets, but every once and awhile it would give us trouble. __________________ will griffith producer/editor

April 11th, 2007, 02:29 PM	#17
Eric Weiss Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philly,PA Posts: 360	i've shot some really oversaturated reds on at least a dozen DV cams and never experienced anything close to that. i don't find it acceptable at all. who's comfortable dropping $4K on a cam only to "avoid" certain reds? i'm shooting in mexico like 1/3 of the year. it's basically impossible. toot sweet, the first "red" thing i'd shoot would be the blood of that salesman. now i have to go test a bunch of friggin' red BS things on this A1 while I still have the opportunity to return it.

April 11th, 2007, 02:50 PM	#20
Eric Weiss Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philly,PA Posts: 360	Oh, I'm fully aware. Further, people welcome the feeling of a vibrating bass. This is completely different. When I said "I'm shooting in Mexico 1/3 of the year" ..I meant that I have been for several years and will continue to do so. I will know in a few moments as to what cam I will be doing it with. I'm actually lining up a bunch of "red" things right now. lol. I've been shooting for probably 15 years and DV for at least 10. I find it really hard to believe that I've just never run across "that red." On your latest post it's orange, red, and dark red. I really can't believe you accept this and pass it off as "nature of the format."

April 11th, 2007, 03:19 PM	#22
Eric Weiss Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philly,PA Posts: 360	Indeed. In fact - the letus, nikon, preset combo is what I was attributing it to ( or the encoding ) until Chris posted his "bucket" and Will informed us about his Xl2. So now I'm concerned.

April 11th, 2007, 04:42 PM	#24
Eric Weiss Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philly,PA Posts: 360	Wow, it seems like it's a 24fps thing. I gathered a lot of red items and just found but one, the grip on my pliers, that pulsed at an unacceptable level..but only in 24f! Some other shades were slightly noisy. In 60i they were all solid. Which would explain the debate - hence, "24 fps, always." and "The A1 is my first 24f cam." Chris and Will, were you shooting in 24 as well? Since I never experienced anything like this on my Xl1-S or GL2 - but Will did on the XL2, 24fps would again explain it. I went through all of the presets, including Wolfgang's, which takes the red really over the top. In 60i it's awesome. Everything looked pretty good. I'm relieved. I mainly shoot 60i.

April 11th, 2007, 05:02 PM	#25
Marlon Torres Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 230	I shoot 24f all the time and never had trouble with reds, even ridiculously saturated ones.

April 12th, 2007, 10:52 AM	#28
Eric Weiss Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philly,PA Posts: 360	well, i think we have found it. will can even pinpoint it. what's interesting is that it is consistant across 3 different Canon cams. it took me quite a bit of "reds" to get that pulse. one item out of roughly two dozen. reds that did not pulse could also be "ridiculously saturated" as marlon stated. i think the letus and the preset may increase that artifact over a wider range of colors.

April 14th, 2007, 08:34 AM	#30
Eric Weiss Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philly,PA Posts: 360	yikes! i don't get anything like that in 60i. what was your shutter speed? default on the A1 at 24f is 1/24. I'd like to try some red tests again at 1/48 and see if that makes any difference.