Hey! I was starting to think this thread was completely dead!

Yes, those cameras (appart from the Elphel) can deliver from 720p to 2K. Some are more expensive than others but I think all of those are above $5K and also need a computer to run. I mean, are they worth it? I know the Altasens sensor gives a great image quality but appart from the Silicon Imaging recording software, is that image quality so damn better than the Elphel to pay 13 times more?

Please, don't get me wrong. I really appreciate what people at SI did with the SI2k Mini. They probably offered a much better option for independent filmmakers than even RED did, but we're talking about really low cost DIY 2K cameras here and I really think that's about $2500 computer included.

I think the Elphel is the best option so far. If only we could choose a visually lossless codec and make it easy to carry in terms of power source... If nothing else comes out in a month or so, I'll get myself one.

Sensor Size
 

I was also looking at the sensor size for low light performance. The Elphel 353 has "only" 1/2" (the Elphel 363 - promises a 11Megapix or 16 Mp sensor for about 4K - release Q3 07) v/s the others that also have upto 1.2"
How much are the bigger sensors worth ?

The Elphel 363 uses bigger sensors and larger resolutions but it can't deliver more than a few frames per second. That and the price are the main problems with big sensors. So far I believe you can't really find a 2/3" - 1" sensor that can deliver 2K or more @24fps for less than $3000. If I'm wrong, someone please say it. And if that sensor comes with a demo board, please say it louder.

(Trying to restart the main subject here)

Going back to the Micron demo board, there was someone thinking about a software solution for it. The board sends the stream, the computer compresses it in real time and then records it to the HDD. The SI2k Mini uses exactly the same workflow but of course it uses GigE interface which has more than enough bandwidth to deliver the stream.

We know that if we overclock the usb port, it can actually deliver a 24fps stream at 2k RAW Bayer. My question is, can ANYONE write the piece of software needed to compress and record? Remember we had lots of info and sample coding from Micron. We just need a 2:1 compression ratio and the minicomputer specs go way down just by doing that. There're many opensource lossless and visually losless codecs out there.

The Elphel with kodak KAI-2093 ccd could possibly come under the $3000 mark. But for 2K resolution you'd have to jump up to the Kodak KAI-4021 ($500+ more)

Again, the Elphel with the Kodak sensor will deliver less fps. You can read it at the Elphel's wiki.

You are thinking of the larger 16mpix / 11mpix kodak sensors. The ones I listed can do 24-30fps

ISG developing new HD cameras
 

Hi

My firm is currently designing a new LightWise family of cameras.

These will be 1394B which will sustain 512 Mbps of video data.
We will offer the Micron 5Mp sensor which will operate at up to 30 fps in 1920 x 1080 (1080P). This would be RAW Bayer Data. Or for fully processed images (24-bit RGB) you would need a compression ratio of 3 to 1 (which is LOSSLESS) to send live data over the 1394b interface.

This camera will be priced at under $2K.

We have other potential HD options in development also =>

ISG has 3 potential products to have you review and provide feedback to me. Please let me know if you would be interested in any of these.

1)
LW-5-S-1394b-C = 5 Megapixel camera = with a ROI setting for 1920 x 1080 pixels = 30 fps resolution with 1394b (800) with Embedded JPEG inside camera. Potentially available in January 2008. Small Quantity costs would be ~$2K or less. For fully processed images (24-bit RGB) you would need a compression ratio of 3 to 1 (which is LOSSLESS) to send live data over the 1394b interface. This will be an ISG standard product. Uses the Micron MT9P001 5Mp CMOS sensor with synchronous rolling shutter. Sponsorship could enable quicker availability.

2)
LW-KAI-2093-1394b-C = 2.1 Megapixel camera = 1920 x 1080 pixels = 30 fps full resolution with 1394b (800) with Embedded JPEG inside camera. Potentially available in January 2008. Small Quantity costs would be ~$4K Uses Eastman Kodak KAI CCD with global shutter. We are looking for a sponsor to complete this design. This sponsor would invest $18K to complete the work. For fully processed images (24-bit RGB) you would need a compression ratio of 3 to 1 (which is LOSSLESS) to send live data over the 1394b interface. This would be an identical camera as #1 above but with the Kodak CCD. Sponsor covers cost of the CCD sensor board and engineering.

3)
LW-KAI-2093-Ethernet-2NTSC = 2.1 Megapixel camera = 1920 x 1080 pixels = 30 fps full resolution with 10/100 Ethernet and (2) NTSC ports with Embedded JPEG inside camera. Potentially available in December. Small Quantity costs would be ~$4K Uses Eastman Kodak KAI CCD with global shutter.. We are looking for a sponsor to complete the this design. This sponsor would invest $15K to complete the CCD sensor board and engineering work. You would need a compression ratio of 60 to 1 to send live data over the 10/100 ethernet interface.

In mid-2008 ISG could offer these same options above with Gigabit Ethernet interfaces.

Best regards,
Kerry

******************************************
Kerry Van Iseghem
Imaging Solutions Group
1387 Fairport Road, Ste 890,
Fairport, NY 14450 USA
Phone => 585-388-5220
Cell => 585-230-9090
Fax => 585-388-5223
E-mail => kerry@ISGchips.com
Website => www.ISGchips.com

Internet Messaging =>
Skype ID = kerry_vaniseghem
Yahoo Messenger ID = kerry_vaniseghem
MSN Messenger ID = kerry_vaniseghem
*****************************************

USB 3.0 lauched.
 

http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archi...070918comp.htm

This might help with the speeds.

Wow, I have not visited this thread in quite some time, it looks like I have some catching up to do.

Just a quick update, bootstrap and I are still slowly working on a FPGA solution. It is still going to be some time before we see any results, but to say the least we are determined.

I find this strange, but right now it seems that the component we are having the hardest time locating is a C-mount PCB mount. Basically we just need a plastic or aluminum bracket that mounts to the PCB and holds a C-mount (or CS-Mount) lens the proper distance from the sensor. We have spent countless hours searching on google, but all the pages we can find that reference to them are 404'd. Does anyone know who makes or sells these reasonably?

Now it is time for me to start catching up on what I missed in this thread.

Greeetings!
 

I've been reading this thread for a while and thought Id finally say hello. Sunnex makes some nice PCB mount lens holders (mostly M12 I think) but they do have some adapters that will break out a M12 to a C-mount.

I to am working on a FPGA solution using a micron imager (MT9T001)
and my secret weapon is the ADV202.

What is everyone else working with right now?

PS ---> http://www.optics-online.com/
(sunnex's site)

That's great Alex!

What interface are you using? Are you going to use any lossless codec? What have you managed to get so far?

As for me, I left the camera for a while. I have to start shooting a few projects soon so unless someone offers a new lossless 2K solution soon, I'll be buying the Elphel for now. I'll continue my project after I finish.

By the way, why did you choose MT9T001 instead of MT9P001? There's also a new P series sensor specifically made for HD video purposes.

I went with the 3MP imager for availability (digikey had it in stock when I ordered my parts)

The ADV202 can actually be run in "lossless" mode. Although Im waiting to see actual captured frames be encoded and then decoded to see the quality/ if it really can.

As far as progress, Im starting the prototype right now. I just finished laying out a "headboard" pcb that Ill mount the chip, optics, and filtering caps onto. This board will plug into a Altera Cyclone II dev kit.

With that rig it should not be to bad to capture some frames and display them on a computer monitor. (I'm close to getting a dual ported ram interface working so the display modules can read while the imager is writing)

Basically right now Im concentrating on getting a live video stream out of the imager, then Ill be tackling compressing it and doing something with it...


-Alex

Well... That makes you the most successful developer in this thread so far. Congratulations!

Is it simple to adapt that design to the P series sensors? What interface does the Altera Cyclone II have?

Please, keep us updated!

The Altera Dev kit provides two 40 pin expansion ports, so I get ~70 GPIO lines. This is in addition to the peripherals built into the dev kit (SD card slot, 8MB SDRAM, VGA port etc)

As far as adapting to the P series, from what I know of Micron parts, the interfaces are fairly standard. As in I think it would be very easy to adapt the module Im working on to pull frames from the larger sensor.

Did I answer your question about the interface on the Altera board?
(not sure what your asking)....

If you were asking about programming it, the board has a built in byteblaster cable that lets you debug over a USB port.

PS - My website = www.GooseTechnologies.com
And more to the point, my always in Flux write up of all this:
http://goosetechnologies.com/page.php?pageid=5

Sorry I wasn't more specific. I was refering to the output interface for the video stream to the computer when everything's finished (firewire, usb, GigE...).

It's also good to know the board has a VGA output so a standard LCD can be used too.

Hum i don't know which altera board he has, but he's talking about Sd card slot so i believe it's a DE1 like mine and in this case the VGA controller is only 4 bits per color so forget about 'real' display.

edit : yes it's the same as mine, after seeing the pic on his website ;)

You can always use the general io pin to do what you want but that need more work ;)

(by the way Alex, i wouldn't mind discuss that dual port ram with you, i'm new to fpga and there is some concepts quite difficult to grasp... and if you're interested i bought a micron 1.3Mp module with it and it comes with some code for interfacing sensor and everything...but for the DE2 board so it's not working out-of-the-box :))

So we'd need to display the video via the cam-computer interface using the computer screen, just like the other possible solutions do. If it can be done while capturing in realtime, there's no problem with it.

Sorry for disappearing for a while. I changed the email I using and had to go back through the moderator Que. You guys are right on the money, I am using the DE1 dev kit, however dont discount VGA output so quick. If you look at the schematic its not that complex of a circuit. Bumping it up to 10bit per color is as easy as adding a resistors and connecting IO lines.

Im more than happy to give verilog tips and answer questions btw. Just have to ask!

What about the dual ported ram would you like to know?

EDIT: Check out the head board:
http://goosetech.homelinux.com/conte...s/JAMCAMV2.pdf

Can you tell me some more about this?
Have you considered JPEG 2000 which is wavelet?
Its the compression I think the RED is using and
delivers a much nicer video.
If you go with JPEG please allow for variable compression
rates. For me about 22MB/sec which is 6 to 1 is OK and
easy to handle.
Basically I am interested in the camera from what you
described. I am a programmer by trade.

Thanks,
Bob

Hi, Jose A. Garcia;
Did you ever figure out how much a Foveon sensor would sell for?
Can you even do 720p with that sensor at 60fps?
I was under the impression that it was toooo slow.
Thanks,
Bob

The 35mm sized Foveron F13D is under $850 for the sensor. It will do 24fps at 720p

>F13D is under $850 for the sensor. It will do 24fps at 720p.
Thanks for the reply.
Thats not cheap enough for me to play with and that doest include
a test board. It is a full sized 35mm sensor though isnt it?

I am surprised they dont mention this on their site. They only mention
640x480 at 30fps. I like the idea of the sensor for things like chroma
keying it would fantastic.

I will keep reading this with interest. I am not interested in a 3,0000 to
8,000K camera that delviers HDV with tiny sensors and cant afford to spend 20K for a RED.

Bob

It'd be great to have 3 color layers and full 35mm size even if it's only 720p. If anyone develops a board for the Foveon sensor sure I'd buy it.

Im sending out the PCB for the micron sensor board today.
Any one interested in one?

-Alex

Yes I am !
How do you plan to make some PCB prototype ?

(btw i somehow saw my first image yesterday, but i'm still struggling with quite a lot of things... well, that's what learning is :D)

I tried to log into your site but did was not able to download
the PDF. I m very late to this party but hve to ask..
Where does the Altera come into play?
Whats the board for again?

The Altera Dev kit provides two 40 pin expansion ports, so I get ~70 GPIO lines. This is in addition to the peripherals built into the dev kit (SD card slot, 8MB SDRAM, VGA port etc)

As far as adapting to the P series, from what I know of Micron parts, the interfaces are fairly standard. As in I think it would be very easy to adapt the module Im working on to pull frames from the larger sensor.


Did I answer your question about the interface on the Altera board?
(not sure what your asking)....

If you were asking about programming it, the board has a built in byteblaster cable that lets you debug over a USB port.

PS - My website = www.GooseTechnologies.com
And more to the point, my always in Flux write up of all this:
http://goosetechnologies.com/page.php?pageid=5

Off topic but...StreamPix&Cineform
 

I have info that StreamPix software now has cineform support. As Cesar Rubio says this might change all. I only wish that this combo is somewhat cheaper.

Sorry, power went out at my apartment. Server is back up now. So if you click on News, and then try the link you should be able to get the PDF

Ok got the PDF and looked at the block diagram.
I see of the chip will be used.
Was wondering why there are JPEG2000 encoders in the diagram.
Are there any images from the CCD yet?

Thanks,
Bob

Just a little about me.
I am a windows programmer by trade and been writting plugins for
video applications part time. Been wanting an HD camera for a long
time but the only one that seems to be worth having is the
RED which is WAY out of my price point. So I am very interested in
this project. What is the total cost you are trying to stay
under?

Thanks,
Bob

Im trying to shoot for under $600 for this project.
That includes some nifty LCD's :-)

The JPEG2000 codec is what Im planning on using as a lossless compressor to squish this stream into something manageable.

This will make things easier for swapping large files :
http://www.geekstuff4u.com/product_i...roducts_id=630

I can't wait to get one.

First cool idea with the sata drive mounts. Wonder if you can use a battery?

> The JPEG2000 codec is what Im planning on using as
> a lossless compressor to squish this stream into
> something manageable

Dont squish the video too much. HD is ~166MB/sec raw.
If you squish it to much you artifact the data.
27MB/sec which is ~6 to 1 and considered almost loseless.

If would be interesting to have options open so that you
can reduce or increase the amount of compression if
thats at all possible.

Have you actually gotten an image from this sensor yet?

Bob

(PS. 600 WOW that cheap?? )

Too bad that HDD stack thingy doesn't come in an eSATA model. That would have been perfect.

I am sure it won't be long for the eSATA model. Or maybe someone will mod one of these things.

The Image sensor is going to output in Bayer format.
So at 720p we get:
1280x720 = 921600 pixels, which are 10bits each on this sensor so
x10 = 9216000 bits /8 to put it into bytes of 8 bits = 1152000 Bytes / 1024 bytes per k = 1125 KB per frame. At 24p we get 27000KB or ~ 27MBps
And that is raw video no compression at all. Ill admit that with bayer we are interpolating pixels, but with the proper conversion the law of averages says we'll get about the right color. And since the imager is 3MP and we can window were the 1280x720 is - we can center it, thus having pixels above and below and to the left and right so we can extract bayer pixels for the full image.

Also, I chose the imager because its obtainable (got mine from digikey). Also its a CMOS imager, not CCD. ~166MB/s raw is if you have 3 CCD's for each color.... which would also mean $1200 just for the imagers.

PS - I just got word from Hong Kong, the Head board PCB Im testing the imager out on that will hook to the Altera Dev kit is being Fabbed, should be here soon.

Thanks for the answers to the questions. Is this the way other cameras
do this? Like still cameras? Just curious. I read up on the Bayer pixel color pattern. If someone has not done this already you should be able to write
something to translate the raw bayer data straight to video because converting it to YUV or some other color format will actually increase
the size wont it?

Just thinking. Only 27MB/sec cool.. You might have to have a pair of
Sata drives to capture continuosly but it could be done.

I work a lot with 22MB/sec YUV 4:2:2 data mixing the streams as well
as reading and writting files.

I could see that with 3 sensors the entire project becomes much more complex and expensive. You have to split the image into RGB which makes
alignment and issue then time the reads of each sensor. Just
more complex.

Just some random thoughts.

Actually, CMOS sensors (at least my 1.3Mp Micron sensor) offer a slighty bigger image with 4 pixels more (2 on each side) for the interpolation.
(well yes it's irrevelant because the full sensor is too slow anyway)

Good news for your sensor board, if you don't mind, can you talk about the price ? I've absolutly no idea how much cost a prototype PCB (and i'll need one for my full camera)
By the way, I got my first picture today, w00t \o/

@Bob : we already discussed at length of debayering methods, try to look into this thread, and into Take Vos Mirage's thread ;)

PCB cost will depend on how many layers you end up needing, and the square inch size of the board. My sensor head was simple (2 layers) and fairly small, so I got away with ordering 3 for ~$70

I would imagine however you will likely need at least 4 layers, and a fair bit of board space... so Id guess $200-300 for ~3-4 boards...

-Alex

Congrats on the first picture!
Hopefully Ill be at that stage soon too.