Hello Jose,

The OV5620 will not handle full resolution 2K @ 24fps.

A complete 10 bit pixel can be read from the sensor in one clock pulse. However the clock runs at 48 Mhz.

>>> 48000000 / 2048.0 / 1080.0 / 24.0
0.90422453703703709

But at 2.40 ratio it could work. However the paper also talks about maximum transfer rates at specific resolution, I am not sure if a ROI will run at maximum transfer rate.

About SATA eSATA again
 

I have found maybe a solution for highspeed serial ATA conection to LS-371:

This is miniPCI card that support port multiplier function (Chip on it is SIL 3512 that has this function, (ICH7M onboard LS-371 has no support for this only AHCPI and NCQ))
http://www.aaeon.com/PD_Products_Det..._TW_utf-8.html

This is port multiplier for HDDs.
http://www.cooldrives.com/sisiharaesbr.html
It means that your system will see your two external drives as one single drive. You can join those two drives in single enclousure in raid 0 or 1 (jumper selected onboard this multiplier device. I think it has internal hardware RAID fuinction) and have eSATA hot swap. It will run one single cable from your controller to disk enclousure. So when you need uncompressed go for Raid 0, when you need compressed go for Raid 1 for safety.

Here is sata to eSATA internal- external connection:
http://www.cooldrives.com/essaii3gbexp.html
I have not found single one type so you only use one port.

I hope this can help us, and all this sounds very familiar....Like I have seen this somewhere before.

Can someone please check this out once more, maybe I have not seen something.

Take, every time I speak about 2K I mean 2.39:1 2k, that's 2048x858 pixels.

I've been contacted by Cypress. They're offering me two different sensors (not the Ibis). One's smaller and cheap (rolling shutter and less sensitivity) and the other's near 35mm size and global shutter. Both can do 2k at 24fps.

I'll tell you prices and stuff asap.

Chips only, no dev board?

No, this time I'm requesting the whole package. Dev board included.

If you want to hire somebody to make ti, you have Take, and also Rob Scott has software already, but I think he is no longer doing it for free.

The Ambarella chip has an ARM micro-controller, so should be able to be setup to control, the system instead of an PC. But, where ever the array of SPARC (or was that MIPS) processors are assessable and programmable is the question, and how programmable, and how much programming is needed. Basically view it as, possibly, equivalent to the guts of the Elphel, maybe even an bit more configurable (display memory cards ports etc).

There is open-source FPGA of BBC's Dirac Pro video codec:
http://dirac.sourceforge.net/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/diracpro.shtml

If you approach cineform, you can purchase an mass license for their codec at an cheap price, but you have to make all the rest of the program.

So Mac Mini has PIC-E, I wonder if I could get Intensity card working on that?

About Mac Mini PC, does not have the GPU capacity, but expected GPU to come.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812232002

Can something like that be modified to take an feed from an USB camera directly to an hard drive?

I have become so cynical, that I just realised I haven't posted this thread over at my technical thread. If there is any others I have forgot please feel free to post them there:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=28781
Just looking at the thread numbers, I have been around here for over 50K threads {:(

Found some amusing stuff in terms of the PC, an version with GigE/USB and IDE would be interesting:

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/smurf-com...nes-266737.php
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,13...1/article.html

Another like LS-371
 

There is another intresting motherboard like LS-371.
http://www.aaeon.com.tw/PD_Products_..._US_utf-8.html
This one has propriatry expansion port (along with mini PCI) that has PCI-e!
I have email them to see if this add on is available. If it is, I have Intensity on this ASAP.

Wow! This one's just great! How much? If it's cheap enough I'll buy it and I'll start building the computer part.

little more or same as ls-371. search thru their site they have enclusures for testbed, and lots of addons. I will post you if they answer me.

Hey Jose, did you get the PM I sent you a few days back with my address?

No, I didn't. You can mail me.

I sent you an email Jose, let me know if you didn't get it. Also I would recommend removing your email address from that last post, don't want you to get any undo spam.

So any luck getting a datasheet from omnivision?

Just thought I would let you guys know that that thanks to opencores.org I have found someone who is working on a very similar project, so we have teamed up in our efforts. Basically we are planing to interface both the omnivision and the Micron chips to an FPGA and allow the user to output to either a hard drive or GigE! Right now we are still in the very early stages so it may be a few months before we have anything that works, but the future is looking promising!

Jose could you let me know for sure if you got my email and if you have had anything luck with the datasheets?

If you are looking for the full datasheet of MT9P micron sensor, Jose attached it somewhere in the thread... If you don't find it, i can send it to you.

By the way, i was going to start on my own something very similar to your project, it would be a pity to waste human resource on duplicate work. Would it be possible to join efforts ?

Ok. Perfect! This looks promising!

Now, Jamie. I didn't get your mail. I don't know why. How can we do it?

I contacted Cypress. They've got the LUPA4000 which gets to 24fps at 2048x858 without any problem. It's a big sensor, so DOF is not an issue. I'd have to pay for the sensor (about $1100) but they loan the evaluation kit for free. So I can test it but as soon as the testing process finishes, I'm left with a single $1100 sensor and nothing more. Don't know if that's a good idea.

Also I'm still waiting for the Panavision quotation.

The Omnivision guy didn't answer yet. I'm waiting for the sensor datasheet and the answer about the possibility to get a demo board.

I think Micron and possibly Omnivision are the most balanced options. Having in mind that the only thing Cypress and Panavision offer is sensor size (both have rolling shutter as well) and they're way more expensive than the others, I think we should put all our efforts on making Micron and Omnivision sensors work the way we want. That way we'll have our low cost HD and 2K camera. If anyone wants to add an adaptor for DOF (like me), then go ahead, but our main goal here is having a working camera.

LUPA4000 is monochrome. (Unless they recently have made color version?)

Right now my favorite sensor is the Foveon F13:
http://www.alt-vision.com/f13.htm

1280x720 at 24fps in FULL 4:4:4 color. It's also a big sensor, so you get the cinematic DOF.

Color purity, sharpness, and dynamic range are gonig to be through the roof, due to VPS binning. I'd say, upsampled to 1080p, it would rival native 1080p bayer sensors.

Yes, the Foveon is one of the best sensors out there but, is it affordable?

I don't know if you've seen the development kit for that sensor but it includes a P4 computer, a screen and a big box full of different boards including the camera head, the cameralink output and a Nikon F mount. I don't think we can afford it.

Have you asked for a quotation?

Maybe upscaling a Foveon 720p image we can get to the quality we get with a 2K bayer sensor but, is it really the best solution?

The Foveon F13 Sensor is used in the Sigma SD14 SLR which is less than $999.
I've asked for a quote. I really don't think the sensor should cost more than an SLR camera that it comes in! :) Of course, the development kit may be rather expensive.

I'm personally more interested in a true 4:4:4 720p image than bayer 1080p or 2k.

Jose I just sent you two more emails from two different address, I hope you at least get one of them.

Steven we can never have enough minds working on a single problem, do you happen to have any experience with FPGA's?

I am thinking of starting a new thread and maybe a website/blog about this project just to keep everything in order. What do you guys think?

I think you are replying to me, no ?
If you consider as fpga experience programming four years ago a 4-bits multiplier that do 3x3 = 12, then yes. I'm a little more high level software guy (and we need that kind of software ;)) but i'm trying to learn vhdl, it has always interested me... (and MIT has some nice online courses). I'll do it alone if needed, but if i can get help for the fpga part while helping on the software side, it will speed up things.

Jose, can you send me your contact info?

I have some people in Madrid quite interested about helping ( and believe me, they know the stuff)

Sorry Stephen I got the names mixed up while replying, I was talking to you. My experience with FPGA's is limited to a class I took 5 years ago where we made an LED Blink:-(

Anyway the other developer (Bootstrap) and I have been doing some research on FPGA's and I think we are about to settle on this dev board as a base: http://www.altera.com/products/devki...yc2-2C20N.html From there we are going to build a daughter card and integrate some of the IPcore from OpenCores.org to make everything work.

There is a lot more to it then this, but that is the gist of it. Let me know what you think.

So you're going for the concurrent, i chose Xilinx and this board, which is reasonably priced, powerfull (almost overkill, but that leave room for experiment) and, very important for me, very small... You can actually directly use the board once the development is finished.

edit : aww, your board is nice also, sound and SD Card socket (and IDE ?) ... but no ethernet ?? but optional micron sensor !!
The choice is hard...

That is a nice board but I think that the Altera board will be able to handle what we need.

For information:
Xilinx Spartan-3E FPGAs enable JVC's GY-HD250

Ok, there've been lots of different posts.

First, Jamie and Steven, I want to be part of everything involving this project. I'm no programmer, but if you three need help with anything, just ask. And of course, keep me updated please.

Juan, you didn't enable your PM option. Please, PM me about those people in Madrid.

I'll create the blog for the project. I'll post an url soon.

Jose, My PM has been disabled by an Administrator and....mmm.. I don't really know why....
May be you can send it to Steven and he will give it to me
Or better, my email is fiebelk at hotmail dot com

Something simillar happened to me at REDuser forum.
I get a legal account but never recieved an email for confirming it, so I have an account but I cannot post. Nice isn't it?

About your email problems, check your ISP's spam filter settings, and your spam folders. There seems to be some PDF exploit lately, an lot of hacked emails are turning up with PDF attachments. I've even had normal dvinfo forwarded messages filtered. However, I also seem to have had some normal emails not coming through, for some reason (maybe some type of server hack?).


Foveon price, probably depends on their manufacturing quantity. Han-vision used to make industrial cameras with Foveon chips, ask if they are doing one for this chip, or an better one. You could ask them how much the cameras would be quantity. They usually use firewire, and even though there is firewire recording stiff out there, you could also ask about recording software. Additionally you could ask them if it is possible to record directly from the camera to hard drive, using the external display port for viewing and external controls. Would make an complete head solution, just add computer.

Lupa should have global shutter as well as Rolling. But 24fps, means 1/24th/s shutter, usually, when film used 1/48th/s. I think for the digital cinema age, 50fps at 1/50th/s looks better and is more universally adjustable. In the original project, 3 years ago, it was too early, because of processing requirements, and screen penetration, but now it is much closer and upcoming in future years.

FPGA, what about doing it on the Elphel, isn't it open, with existing Open core FPGA to work on?

Interesting, if you look at the latitude demonstration advantage on omnivisions home page. I suggest sensors should be checked for these problems, especially the ones with small pixel pads.

From another thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....6&postcount=24

If there is enough expertise here, and desire, it is worth working towards, as it would stop us being hamstrung by manufacturers. Making the sensor interface extension part of the design, also makes it Open, and is also desirable.

I feel a little down...

I ran out of things to do for this project.

That's it. We have our solution. Sensor + FPGA connected to a computer or directly to a HDD. Jamie and Steven haven't finished yet (or even started), but the rest of us just have to sit down and wait.

Having started this project myself, I really liked the idea of being the main active part till the end, but I guess this has become a project for everyone in the past two months. And I'm glad for it, but I just can't help feeling a bit down since I cannot be an active part anymore.

Well, anyway, we'll have our own open source 2K camera!

Ok, i just ordered the board Jamie suggested (well, too bad for the lack of ethernet, but let's have a recording solution first) and see what we can do with that. A proper raw 640x480 camera would be a good start ;)

Jose, there is things you can do, as a film maker, and not a tech guy. Like designing what would be a good interface, what kind of workflow would be acceptable, etc.
Or find a suitable manufacturer that can provide in very small number PCBs for some more integrated prototypes than dev board, once the FPGA software is done.

You're right Seven. There're lots of things to do yet.

I've got a new quote for a 3.5" board with a Core2Duo 1,8Ghz and 512Mb of RAM already installed. It's $786,43 each.

I'm asking for another two with 1Gb and 2Gb of RAM.

The board is the one we found after the LS-371, the 3301880.

http://www.globalamericaninc.com/new...ec2.php?id=845

The workflow is simple. If we can get to full 2K, perfect. I know the Micron sensor can and gives more than 24fps, but for me 2048x858 is ok. Then possibility to choose 1080p and 720p in 16:9 and 2.39:1. Variable framerate but fixed at 24fps by default. Programmable gain, white balance, contrast, gamma... All those controls were already supported with the demo board, but some must be translated to filmmaking formulaes. I mean, using the Micron sensor you must set the shutter time in miliseconds, while in filmmaking you set it in fractions of a second.

Now, recording workflow:

In-board compression must deliver already debayered lossless 2:1 or more (visually lossless may also be an option), so we can use standard parts for the computer. Otherwise we'd have to use 10000rpm disks which are a waste of budget if we consider that a simple SATA 320Gb 7200rpm HDD is quite cheap.

There can be many ways to record the clips from the camera to the editing computer. One could be just a simple firewire/usb connection. Other could be using an external usb HDD. You plug it to the camera and we put a simple button in the interface to dump all selected clips to the external HDD.

Anyway, all people reading this can suggest different options for the interface. Please, keep it simple. Have in mind that this interface will probably be controlled by hand using a touchscreen, so I'm thinking of big buttons to control all common options and maybe a "menu" button to open a new window with all the rest. If we use a widescreen LCD and we shoot in 2.39:1, we have enough space up or down to include a simple menu.

By the way Steven. Why did you choose a dev board without GigE?

Well, this altera board is cheap (280$ with the sensor board and shipping) and you have to do one step at time. So, for the moment, i'll play with the sensor, learn how to interface it and controlling it, record to sd card and try to write come compression algorithm. With the xilinx board i would need to solder pins and solve some purely mechanical problem, which i can't do it right now as i'm working abroad and don't have anything but a computer to work with. So for the moment, i'll focus on the software, and once everything will be working, we'll see for using another interface.
The real world struck me somehow ;)
(and as the dev board is using a 1.3Mpixels Micron sensor, i'll ask the company for an eventual sensor upgrade, the pinout should be quite similar)

Ok, anyway you know you have a full Micron 5mp head for about $300. It could be useful for the final design.

May be these documents from TI will be usefull for developers:
Interfacing a CMOS Sensor to the TMS320DM642 Using Raw Capture Mode

HD Video Encoding with DSP and FPGA Partitioning White Paper

Hi to all I’m Matteo from the Elphel thread and I've finished reading this big thread only now. I think you're doing a great job! I'm doing an hd camera also but because I’m not an electronic or software engeneer,(I'm a civil engeneer) I do not know how to design hardware and software so, I stay in the elphel side ...is small is not so expansive and it can make amazing things, is open, supported by a factory that develop camera and last Andrey is very kind with us (he take an eye every day ) so the camera will increase in function every day
I’m designing all the other part of the camera…matte box , rail system, follow focus and a medium format spinning adapter! ….all those things will be made in DIY mode so it will be heavy at the end and use a in camera pc will increase more….but there is always a but….for a movie what is more important , yes more important than the image, is how you have shoot the film…or better you have to look at lights setup ,sound and an anti shake system for fluid pan! The last one is, I think, the most important thing, yes fluidity! Take a look at 28 days later …thay shooted it with the first XL1 an SD camera!
So in the end, to stay cheap, we have to take a look at the final weight …I’ve taken a fluid head tripod by vinten (one of the best factory ) and I think that all our project have to stay under 6 Kg with that weight you could take a good tripod for less than 500 dollar….double the weight and you have to invest 2000$ for a very good one …That’s why I think that the best way we can follow is a camera like the SI mini2k camera and the pc , battery and so on… to put on the ground 

I’ve seen that you’re looking for quality c-mount lens …take a look at this: Computar H2Z0414C-MP spec is here http://www.rmassa.com/specsheets/H2Z0414C-MP.pdf and here is the link http://www.rmassa.com/manu/computar.htm or this one http://www.rmassa.com/specsheets/HF125SA16SA-1.pdf but is more expansive! http://www.rmassa.com/manu/fujinon.htm

And if you need an Idea on the design of the graphic user interface for the camera I’ve developed some ago these for the elphel in flashMX
http://www.webalice.it/teo.poz/elphel_GUI/
http://www.webalice.it/teo.poz/elphel_GUI2/
but cause is very difficult to get access to the camera for now are in stand-by …until Andrey will implement php access to every single aspect of the 353 

have a good luck from Italy! Matteo

I'm still waiting to get an email from you Jose

(Todavia te estoy esperando Jose. Que pasa? No te interesa en Absoluto?

Esta persona es un investigador Uruguayo que vive en Madrid y trabaja para varias instituciones españolas, muchas sin fines de lucro.Es el inventor de muchos algoritmos de tratamientos de imagenes que se usan el lugares de postproduccion High End. )