35mm Sensor Roundup at DVinfo.net

Jeremy Cimafonte · October 24th, 2009, 03:18 PM

This post ties in with the current discussion on sensors however I feel there is a need to discuss 35mm sensors specifically. We are actively pursuing the possibility of a 35mm sensor. Here is where we are at:

We need a 35mm sensor capable of a resolution equal to or above 2048x1088. It has to be global shutter or CCD. If its a CMOS it can use binning to decrease the resolution and increase the framerate. Interesting fact, if it is a CCD we can use a portion of the sensors active pixels (if it is a 3k sensor, we can use only 2k of the pixels) to increase the framerate. Sadly, this decreases the field of view. If it only has the field of view equivalent to, for instance, a 2/3" sensor than why might would we want to use it over a 2/3" sensor? Well, even if you are using just a portion of the 35mm sensor you would still get 35mm depth of field. Just something to think about.

The DALSA FTF3020C - Product Detail

Type: CCD
Resolution: 3072 x 2048 pixels
Notes:
If it could be overclocked to reach 24fps it would be a very worthwhile possibility. For weeks now I have been making occasional calls to DALSA trying to get in contact with someone qualified to answer my questions. The DALSA employee whom everyone agrees can answer my question is Brian. You can reach Brian at 519 886 6000. It would be a big help if someone could find out if the sensor is capable of 24fps at full resolution or at any resolution equal to or above 2048x1088.

The Sony "Exmor" CMOS - Sony Global - Technology - CMOS Sensor "Exmor"

Type: CMOS
Resolution: ?
This sensor was developed to be a high speed 35mm sensor. I am trying to get in contact with Sony to find out more information. I am trying to get in touch with Sony. If anyone interested would like to help please contact Sony and let us know what the maximum resolution at 24fps would be. This link might be helpful, it contains a phone number:Sony Global - Sony's CMOS Sensors

The Panavision Dynamax Sensor
Resolution: 5766x6492
Type: CMOS
This is the best looking sensor at the moment. Unfortunately, it is probably going to be the most expensive.

If anyone can help research these sensors it would be appreciated. If you have any further discussion relating to 35mm sensors please discuss it in this thread.

Ben Winter · October 27th, 2009, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Well, even if you are using just a portion of the 35mm sensor you would still get 35mm depth of field.

Right, but the decreased field of view makes it equivalent to a longer lens on a smaller sensor. I doubt Panavision would sell their sensor technology to individuals, they don't even sell their production cameras. Ditto with Sony, they'll probably advertise the technology going into their own cameras but I doubt they would sell the chip individually.

Oscar Spierenburg · October 27th, 2009, 06:13 PM

Ben is right about the field of view. I don't think it's preferable to have a portion of a large sensor.
The other point is not really true, because Apertus is not just a group of individuals. It's a serious project, supported by Elphel, which is a special kind of company with a history of interesting and big projects.

Jeremy Cimafonte · October 28th, 2009, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Right, but the decreased field of view makes it equivalent to a longer lens on a smaller sensor.

Quote:

Ben is right about the field of view. I don't think it's preferable to have a portion of a large sensor.

Good to know! I wish I had known that before. Thanks Ben!

Quote:

I doubt Panavision would sell their sensor technology to individuals, they don't even sell their production cameras. Ditto with Sony, they'll probably advertise the technology going into their own cameras but I doubt they would sell the chip individually.

Yes, both companies would not sell their sensors to individuals (yet, not for the same reasons that they don't sell their production cameras. I think there are actually some choice individuals who own Panavision cameras). As Oscar put it, this is a serious project supported by a company who has a history of big projects. As a group of individuals, yes we might not be able to buy these sensors. As Elphel, purchasing these sensors becomes a possibility.

Panavision and DALSA are the only companies I have been able to find that currently manufacture 35mm sensors capable of our needs. Ben, I encourage you to do some research and try and see what sensors you can dig up. There used to be a company called "Silicon Video Inc." which apparently made a QuadHDTV video sensor. Here is a link to the datasheet:
Details and datasheet on part: QuadHDTV-8.3A-LG-M-1-ES

From what I was able to research it looks like the company changed its name to "Silicon Optix" and was then bought out by IDT. I wonder if someone still makes this sensor.

Guillaume Tisserant · October 28th, 2009, 12:58 PM

Have we any idea of price for each sensor?

Jeremy Cimafonte · October 29th, 2009, 06:03 AM

No word on how much the DALSA sensor might cost (or if its even a feasible solution). I'm still waiting to hear back from them.

As far as the Panavision sensor is concerned:
Open Source Camera - Page 7 - Scarletuser.com

"According to Panavision the Dynamax comes in 4 different grades (higher grade -> less faulty pixels). Lowest grade goes for 1100$, highest for 6100$."

Jeremy Cimafonte · November 10th, 2009, 12:00 AM

Currently, there is little hope for a full frame sensor. I have contacted DALSA to see what they can do for us in that respect (a high resolution CCD, using binning and a mechanical shutter, may be able to achieve these results).

Our best option at the moment is a new CMOS sensor with an active image area of around 19.8mm W x 14.8mm capable of 3k. This is slightly bigger than a typical 4/3" sensor (17.3×13.0). I will have more information soon.

If I were to use a 35mm lens with a 19.8mm W x 14.8mm CMOS sensor can anyone tell me what the crop factor would be? Moreover, considering the scarlet will have a 2/3" sensor capable of 3k, this CMOS is actually a very decent solution right?

Sebastian Pichelhofer · November 10th, 2009, 01:41 PM

According to the calculator on this page: Digital Camera Sensor Sizes: How it Influences Your Photography the crop factor of a 4/3" sensor is 2.1 so the dimensions you mentioned should result in something around 1.9 -2.0.

Guillaume Tisserant · November 11th, 2009, 05:09 AM

I think 19.8mm W x 14.8mm is enough big to use 35 mm lens. (Exept it will become hard to find wide angle. ) Does someone have an idea to have Wide angle with non standard sensors?
But do you have all characteristics of the sensor?
Frame rate, Number of Photosit, Dynamic Range, Sensibility...
I don't see it in the sensor list of Dalsa, but they seems list just the CDD sensor, not the CMOS.

Jeremy Cimafonte · November 20th, 2009, 08:31 AM

Guillaume,

Yes we have all the characteristics of the sensor. It is a new sensor that has not been released yet. Therefore, I am not yet at liberty to give you the "Frame rate, Number of Photosit, Dynamic Range, Sensibility" etc. I will ask permission to see what info I can divulge. Once the sensor is released the specifications will be open.

October 24th, 2009, 03:18 PM	#1
Jeremy Cimafonte New Boot Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: United States Posts: 19	35mm Sensor Roundup This post ties in with the current discussion on sensors however I feel there is a need to discuss 35mm sensors specifically. We are actively pursuing the possibility of a 35mm sensor. Here is where we are at: We need a 35mm sensor capable of a resolution equal to or above 2048x1088. It has to be global shutter or CCD. If its a CMOS it can use binning to decrease the resolution and increase the framerate. Interesting fact, if it is a CCD we can use a portion of the sensors active pixels (if it is a 3k sensor, we can use only 2k of the pixels) to increase the framerate. Sadly, this decreases the field of view. If it only has the field of view equivalent to, for instance, a 2/3" sensor than why might would we want to use it over a 2/3" sensor? Well, even if you are using just a portion of the 35mm sensor you would still get 35mm depth of field. Just something to think about. The DALSA FTF3020C - Product Detail Type: CCD Resolution: 3072 x 2048 pixels Notes: If it could be overclocked to reach 24fps it would be a very worthwhile possibility. For weeks now I have been making occasional calls to DALSA trying to get in contact with someone qualified to answer my questions. The DALSA employee whom everyone agrees can answer my question is Brian. You can reach Brian at 519 886 6000. It would be a big help if someone could find out if the sensor is capable of 24fps at full resolution or at any resolution equal to or above 2048x1088. The Sony "Exmor" CMOS - Sony Global - Technology - CMOS Sensor "Exmor" Type: CMOS Resolution: ? This sensor was developed to be a high speed 35mm sensor. I am trying to get in contact with Sony to find out more information. I am trying to get in touch with Sony. If anyone interested would like to help please contact Sony and let us know what the maximum resolution at 24fps would be. This link might be helpful, it contains a phone number:Sony Global - Sony's CMOS Sensors The Panavision Dynamax Sensor Resolution: 5766x6492 Type: CMOS This is the best looking sensor at the moment. Unfortunately, it is probably going to be the most expensive. If anyone can help research these sensors it would be appreciated. If you have any further discussion relating to 35mm sensors please discuss it in this thread.

October 27th, 2009, 06:13 PM	#3
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Ben is right about the field of view. I don't think it's preferable to have a portion of a large sensor. The other point is not really true, because Apertus is not just a group of individuals. It's a serious project, supported by Elphel, which is a special kind of company with a history of interesting and big projects.

October 28th, 2009, 12:58 PM	#5
Guillaume Tisserant Tourist Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Montpellier, France Posts: 4	Have we any idea of price for each sensor?

October 29th, 2009, 06:03 AM	#6
Jeremy Cimafonte New Boot Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: United States Posts: 19	No word on how much the DALSA sensor might cost (or if its even a feasible solution). I'm still waiting to hear back from them. As far as the Panavision sensor is concerned: Open Source Camera - Page 7 - Scarletuser.com "According to Panavision the Dynamax comes in 4 different grades (higher grade -> less faulty pixels). Lowest grade goes for 1100$, highest for 6100$."

November 10th, 2009, 12:00 AM	#7
Jeremy Cimafonte New Boot Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: United States Posts: 19	Currently, there is little hope for a full frame sensor. I have contacted DALSA to see what they can do for us in that respect (a high resolution CCD, using binning and a mechanical shutter, may be able to achieve these results). Our best option at the moment is a new CMOS sensor with an active image area of around 19.8mm W x 14.8mm capable of 3k. This is slightly bigger than a typical 4/3" sensor (17.3×13.0). I will have more information soon. If I were to use a 35mm lens with a 19.8mm W x 14.8mm CMOS sensor can anyone tell me what the crop factor would be? Moreover, considering the scarlet will have a 2/3" sensor capable of 3k, this CMOS is actually a very decent solution right?

November 10th, 2009, 01:41 PM	#8
Sebastian Pichelhofer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 112	According to the calculator on this page: Digital Camera Sensor Sizes: How it Influences Your Photography the crop factor of a 4/3" sensor is 2.1 so the dimensions you mentioned should result in something around 1.9 -2.0.

November 11th, 2009, 05:09 AM	#9
Guillaume Tisserant Tourist Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Montpellier, France Posts: 4	I think 19.8mm W x 14.8mm is enough big to use 35 mm lens. (Exept it will become hard to find wide angle. ) Does someone have an idea to have Wide angle with non standard sensors? But do you have all characteristics of the sensor? Frame rate, Number of Photosit, Dynamic Range, Sensibility... I don't see it in the sensor list of Dalsa, but they seems list just the CDD sensor, not the CMOS.

November 20th, 2009, 08:31 AM	#10
Jeremy Cimafonte New Boot Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: United States Posts: 19	Guillaume, Yes we have all the characteristics of the sensor. It is a new sensor that has not been released yet. Therefore, I am not yet at liberty to give you the "Frame rate, Number of Photosit, Dynamic Range, Sensibility" etc. I will ask permission to see what info I can divulge. Once the sensor is released the specifications will be open.