Elphel 333 (practical thread)
 

Hello everyone,
I started this thread because the 'big' Elphel thread has a lot of general discussions about the camera and its future models etc.

I'd like to discuss specific techniques on how to actually use this camera for film making. Some of us (including me) on this board own the camera and are struggling to make it useful for our purposes.
I have put my time so far in the optical side of the project.. rebuilding my microwax 35mm adapter for the Elphel 333. I made a bright macrolens from the Elphel lens cap (really), a 8mm filmcamera, and the iris of a projectorlens.

The software and LiveCD is giving me lots of difficulty, because I'm not a programmer (or anything like it, I don't even know how they look or if I ever saw one).
I can capture the output stream to my laptop, but in a difficult way. And the 'worst' part is that I can't seem to save any settings, so I'd have to adjust everything like framesize, compression quality, FPS, etc. etc. every time I start up the LiveCD.

Any suggestions to make this process easier to use are welcome. I'd also like to use this thread for posting results..good or bad.. and getting more people interested in using this camera.

I like this idea. I spend lots of hours searching for this kind of stuff and receantly find this page. If you look carefuly at phil-tacx q&a you will probably find what you need.

https://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=371579

I have posted on the sourceforge.net forum myself, but didn't get much response. This forum is more dedicated to filmmaking and much more active than
the Elphel support sites, that's why I posted here.

You just have to write down all the settings & practice! It only takes about 10minutes to get recording but thats a price worth paying I think. it used to be much worse (20minutes) with all those command lines that had to be entered to optimize Linux for recording, then more command lines to record etc. Now its fairly easy I think once you have done it. I keep a partition on the laptop recording hard drive with XP on it so can quickly convert link all the ogg files with Vdub into avi & format the linux drive before recording anything important. Could probably do all this in Linux but there is a learning curve that Im not all that interested in climbing unless I have to. Going to start work on the footage I recorded in Rome with the camera this week so I maybe able to show some clips of places many of you will recognize soon.

You maybe able to set some of the default settings by adjusting a file thats held on the elphel camera. Been a long time since I did this but I think there are instructions on one of the forums for the 301.

Thanks for your reply Phil.
Do you use the liveCD or is there a way to boot linux from the harddrive?
Also, do you use this control panel?: http://wiki.elphel.com/images/3/34/Control_panel_1.jpg
It seems to be a lot easier than the new one: http://s08.picshome.com/d29/panel.jpg

I only found something like the first panel when I flashed the camera with elphel333-6.3.9-flash.tar
But then I can't do anything. I get this screen with 'preview not implemented'
http://s08.picshome.com/d29/snapshot1.jpg

I'm looking forward to your Rome footage.

I use the new complex one, its not so hard to use its just got a lot more functions that you can mostly forget about. I would set the frame rate at 25fps or what ever & record the video 4:3 & then cut it in post. This way you can pan about with your editor in post.

New software - 6.5.3-RC1
 

You may want to try new firmware that has better "gamma" table

https://sourceforge.net/project/show...kage_id=151844

http://elphel.cvs.sourceforge.net/el....v?view=markup
...
384 // modified table data to increase precision. table_base[9:0] is now 10 bits (2 extra).
385 // The 10-bit interpolation will be rounded to 8 bits at the very last stage
386 // 8 bit table_diff will be "floating point" with the following format
387 // now "signed" is 2's complement, was sign, abs() before
388 // table_diff[7]==0: table_diff[6:0] - signed data [-64,+63] to be added to table_base
389 // table_diff[7]==1: table_diff[6:0] - signed data that will be left-shifted by 4 [-1024,+1023] to be added to table_base
...

Elphel wiki
 

You are welcome to add a new section on Elphel wiki (http://wiki.elphel.com) dedicated to these applications. Wiki might be more convenient to organize information than the forum format is.

I don't check forums too often, so emailing directly to support at elphel com can get to my ( or somebody else of our people) attention sooner.

I have quickly scanned this thread, so if I am going off the wrong track, please forgive me.

If the settings are set by command line before filming, why not write a batch file to set them up. An editor and live controls that are saved would be better, but this is a simple start if it takes you ten minutes to feed things in to get started.

How do you actually get this camera?

I emailed elphel twice requesting info on the 353 and never got a response. If nothing else I would really like to order a 333, but I don't know how to go about getting one.

I am excited about the potential of this camera.

I think you could also change & save the settings on the actual camera. At least you could with the older 313 camera. Most of the 10min time is taken up loading up the live CD (I could just install it on a partition) optimizing the hard drive (a setting in the start menu), making the hard drive writable, loading up the recording software onto the now writable hard drive etc....its Linux....its free. If you had it installed then this would be a no issue. For me I just found linux a learning curve that Ive never had time to climb. I know just enough to do what I need to film with the 333/313 & really nothing more.

I even boot up XP to Format the 7600rpm laptop recording drive (with some specialized software) before any filming trips! All you then need is Vdub to convert the ogg files into avi using stream copy (on mylaptop it does this at about 200fps)& edit them in any software. the Mjpeg avi's are extremely fast to work with on a modern PC. Nothing like HDV hell. You can watch the ogg files via VLC also but converting to avi takes just a few minutes & then they play in everything if you have a Mjpeg codec.

The only problem just now is the recording utility is a bit flaky & the Auto exposure changes in big steps, think once thats been smoothed then the camera would work great for film making.

Phil, I'd like to install the Linux to the hard drive, next to XP, but I've read somewhere that the knoppix linux versions can mess up some times (unable to boot XP or something like that) Any one know more about this?
I too think it would make a very good HD film camera (I use 900 x 1600 pixels with the 333), and I look at its limitations as a challenge to use it artistically. (when there was only black and white film, they made some beautiful movies)

One other issue that needs to be discuss (here) is: sound.
What options do we have to synch the sound to the video files?

Daniel, I just wrote an email to Andrey and he sent me the camera... maybe he has been very busy the past months.

Oscar -- I think you put that very well: "When there was only black and white film, they made some beautiful movies." There are limitations with these various box cameras (compared to a compact all-in-one camcorder solution), but I think we're all in this because we believe the potential quality of the images is worth the inconvenience. When you consider the huge blimped cameras they used to use, which turned them into something the size of a padded wardrobe sitting on a lathe bed, then I guess we can shoot something with a camera tethered to a laptop. Compared to current HDV (which I imagine is our main yardstick to keep ahead of), I like what the box cameras don't do: no rectangular pixels, no fixed frame size/shape, no auto gain (no auto anything). I think it's going to take some time for commercial camcorders to provide some of the features which we have even started to get used to; for the near future hopefully the sensors in box cameras will get better and faster, and maybe the software connection easier to use. Wonder what Forrest is up to...

to Phill and Oscar:
I don't have the camera so maybe what I'm saying is wrong but looking at the instruction on the elphel wiki page I've understand that to access the camera you need to insert command line in firefox (e.g. http://192.168.0.9/axis-cgi/jpg/imag...compression=30 ---->to obtain an image with the assigned set of parameters)
so why not make a html page with in the top part a frame in witch we put the complex control panel (http://s08.picshome.com/d29/panel.jpg) and down this the button with link the exact order of the command line we have to enter to set up the camera and all the button we have to use more to control the camera like :
-record
-stop
...or all the button of the Nikos GUI (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachmen...3&d=1169591374)

MicroWax...
 

Hi Oscar,

how about posting some info (maybe even images??) of your groundglass solution for the 333 on the elphel wiki??

I am really curious of your work...as I plan to get the 353 and build something similar...and I bet there are a lot of other people out there that would find your work exciting too!

thanks

//O.

I'll do that. I just need some time to get some good footage.
My first tests disappeared from the internet, so here it is again:
(it's not fully focused well and at an early stage of the macro lens I made, so..)
http://s09.picshome.com/344/35mmroof5_00003.jpg

I'll post new footage usable for the WIKI page as soon as I have some.

Lens setup etc...
 

Nice shot!

Would it be possible to see some images of the actual lens too...some info on how you built the groundglass solution for the elphel 333??
Basically...some shots of the parts and some info on how you put it together and where you bought them?

Sorry if I'm too pushy...just really curious! :)

Thanks

//O.

Odd, click on the 'Microwax guide' link bellow my signature. Most of what you need to know is on my site, but the footage there is shot with a consumer camcorder.
I'll post some pictures of the modified version for the Elphel soon.

Microwax...
 

Ive clicked on your link a multitude of times already ;)

..thats why Im so interested in how you adapted it to the elphel!

Im thinking of getting a shaking nikon groundglass...but also thinking of making one of yours as I really like the film look of the shots in your gallery...

Maybe do both?

Wellsee :)

Im waiting for the Elphel 353 to be released...hopefully early April.

//O.

is the ground glass nessesery for the camera? just taking out the lenses in front of Elphel and projecting the light directly from 35mm lenses to the sensor would do fine i guess !?

Hurcan,

The sensor size is so much smaller than the 35mm negative. You'll get a huge telephoto effect. Even the 16mm filmcamera lens I use gets a small field of view.
Very sharp though (16mm lens): http://s09.picshome.com/64d/e1.jpg

Odd, I made the Elphel and the adapter in a photo enlarger... I'll post some pictures soon.

thanks for the answer

how about using a mignifier lens to make the image smaller? wouldn't that work?

ps: i tried your wax gg tutorial today. its works realy good. But i used candle wax for it and it came out very grainy. Where can i buy or find micro wax? any sugessions?

I guess there are hundreds of posts about an 'optical solution' in stead of the GG, but I don't think it is possible, nor has anyone achieved it. I think they are discussing something like it in the 'purely optical solution' thread.
Besides that, I have put a 35mm-camera lens in front of the Elphel, but it was very fuzzy on the light (blooming?), I don't think it's an option.

The wax is called micro-wax or microcrystalline wax. Soft and hard wax (I use the soft one)
It is used for candle making and batik painting techniques. So you should find or order it at a good hobby/artists shop. I had trouble finding it myself.

hi oscar one question: is your adapter a vibrating one? or not? You've posted static images of the elphel + adapter, how the noise produced by the microvax is in the video? many thanks and good work

Matteo, it's a static adapter. In my opinion, you either have to make a very stable vibrating or rotating GG or make a wax glass. I think the image is sharper, because the focal plane (distance to the lens) stays exactly the same. A moving GG can loose sharpness if it moves (even the slightest movement) in and out of the focal plane. Of course you won't really notice because of the speed, but still..
Besides that, I really like it that I don't have to use a power source and have to remember turning on and off the adapter.

The grain of the microwax is almost unnoticeable. It looks a bit like a pattern of a projection screen, because it doesn't move when the camera moves. When the camera doesn't move, you won't really notice anything. Another issue is the dust. I have some spots on all my test shots, but I just blow in the adapter from time to time. If you want to do it right, you should get all the dust out and put a non-reflective piece of glass from at a maximum distance from the wax glass (like they do in the Guerilla35?)

many thanks maybe when I've time I'll try your guide! for now I'm building a static adapter with the nikon type D screen :-)

Here are some pics of the adapter and the macrolens I made.

The camera on the adapter. http://s09.picshome.com/64d/adapterside.jpg
http://s09.picshome.com/64d/adapterfront.jpg
It has to be this long, because the image would get distorted when you get too close to the GG. Maybe I can get the whole elphel inside the (photo enlarger) adapter.

Here is the back of the home made macro lens. I drilled a hole in the cap that came with the elphel and put a lens from a 8mm filmcamera inside.
http://s09.picshome.com/64d/macrolensback.jpg
On the front I have the iris of a photo enlarger. http://s09.picshome.com/64d/macrolensfront.jpg

One other thing, I think the easiest way to have a real-time viewfinder (the streaming video is about a second later) is to put a separate viewfinder with a zoomlens on top or on one side of the adapter.
I'm building a viewfinder from a reflex photo camera. You can easily zoom in and out to get the same frame size you see on the laptop, just from a slightly different angle. You won't be able to pull focus visually, but I'm thinking about mechanically synching the viewfinder lens and the adapter lens to a follow-focus. Maybe I'll start working on that next week.

Images!
 

Thank you so much for posting images of your design!

Building a DIY solution is so much more fun when getting inspired by the work of others!

Hmmm I think I need to spend some time finding a good macro lens with C or CS mount...

I'll post my findings.

//O.

one last question :D
 

i couldn't find micro wax. but i found parafin.

are parafin and microwax the same thing? or which one is the better sollution?

Paraffin wax has much more grain. In my experience the paraffin gives a bit brighter image, but too much grain. Have you tried artist suppliers shops?

im in the university for 3 days. And only able to look for it in the universitie's chemical labaratuary. i found parafain wax here but no microwax. i will go to the city today and look for microwax in hobbyshops. there is a very little chance but i will give it a shot :)

or there is a posibbelety that if i can find the formula for the micro wax, i can produce it in the universtylab with the help of product engineers here. however i don't want to wait that long.

i searched everywhere but couln't find macrowax. I only found parafin. maybe i should melt parafin between two transparant cds and use it as a turning ground glass.

what do you think? would it be much metter than the one that is done with the sand paper?


ps: should i open a new thread or continue this one? (probably this should be the last post from me that is not about Elphel 333 :) )

Here is the old microwax thread http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...light=microwax
Maybe we'd better post everything about wax over there.
The Elphel has given it a new dimension though, because it turns out to be the best static 35mm solution for HD footage.

Hi oscar I've to ask you only one thing about the microwax gg ....I haven't understand if, at the end, I'll have to remove the small glass with the aluminum foil and looking at microwax on the net I've found this http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/i...OD&ProdID=1304
have you tried it ...di you think is a good choice!?

Matteo,

Don't remove the small glass, and don't remove the foil. You just have to clean both sides of the pieces of glass.
I never used the microwax-polish. Maybe it works, but I think it will be too fluid, which makes it too transparent (I tested beeswax-polish).
You need something like this: http://www.genwax.com/do_not_index/Z40M75W.htm (I still had that in my bookmarks)

How would a lens like this do on an Elphel 333 camera.
I guess it's from an old professional video camera like this one, and the lens should be adapted to c-mount somehow.
The elphel sensor size is "slightly bigger than 1/2" format (nominal 6.4mm x4.8mm)" , but for the 16:9 at 24fps we don't use the whole sensor. What's the chip size of such a panasonic? I'm asking because I'd like to have a good lens on the Elphel when it's not on the 35mm adapter. Also a bit wide angle, because the 35mm DOF effect is almost lost on wide angle lenses, so I wouldn't use the adapter in those cases anyway.

Oscar pay attention to the fact that what was "broadcast" quality
was with a resolution of 640 x 480 (more or less for pal) so I think that you have to invest in some "megapixel" c mount lens to achieve the result of the image of Phil

Yes, but I guess a professional camera comes with a very sharp lens, and because resolution is something very subjective when it comes to optics (like.. what's the resolution of a real 35mm picture)

maybe you can give it a try it is not so expansive :-) I was thinking for a megapixel lens... if we can adapt a 5 mp camera lens ...you can take an old
broken digital camera for cheap and dismouting it mabe can be usefull

I have now bought a big lens (bigger than the Elphel itself! - didn't know until I got it) originally for a professional Panasonic video camera. I made a mount for the tripod and the elphel so it's in balance (see the images)
I have to fine adjust the focal point, but I got some very sharp images already. And very good at low light.

Another very practical thing I made is a separate optical viewfinder next to the camera. I striped a SLR camera to a small directors-finder. I can also use it with the 35mm adapter. Whatever lens I put in front of the Elphel, I just zoom in with the viewfinder to match the field of view.
Of course I can't pull focus this way, but that's the next problem to solve. (synched follow focus?)


Here are some pictures:

http://s10.picshome.com/351/elphelviewfinder.jpg