Well I'm coming up on my senior year in highschool, a VERY scary thought. My entire life I have aspired to work in film. I've had a camera in my hands ever since I was born. My question is what do I do outside of highschool. My parents have been pressuring VERY much to get a college degree. I don't blame them either. I have really good grades and am in the top 20% of my class. And if I am wanting to be immersed in film, my guess is to go to film school. But after hearing lots of people say don't waste your money on film school, use the money you would use for film school on making your own films, and I'm sure it is a note-worthy effort. But it just really REALLY scares me, I don't want to go spend ton's of money on a film school and wind up working a filmmaker's coffee house. I don't want to piss my parents off by not going to college either. It all gives me a REAL big headache. I have the desire and the will to make films, and I could handle any rigorous course, I am just in the dark right now. Can you guys list your experiences and help me form a path? I mean i figure if i get a degree, and don't make it to hollywood, i could do video work in a big city and be fine, and still be able to work on videos. Any suggestions on schools etc. I live in oklahoma btw ;-) Thnx

Nothing wrong with deferring college for one year after high school ... unless of course your parents scream bloody murder.

So the year doesn't go to waste, it would be a good idea to line up a promising job and/or have a solid well thought out plan before taking that leap - otherwise here's a list of schools (http://www.moviemaker.com/issues/51/filmed.html)

Seconded.

well in actually I only have english and gov't left to take, and i was thinking about graduating a semester early by going to summer school, so basically i would have an extended summer that would be like a year off. and what schools do you think would be best/cheapest the university of oklahoma has an ok film/video studies program, i figure ill probably end up at UT at the most...i dunno i'm scared of not having a plan

Or go to film school but don't expect them it to get you a job. Spend a lot of time doing PA work on other people's shoots. Then you'll get book learnin' and OJT at the same time.

If you find your getting further ahead outside of school, you can always quit.

Riley, I've heard you talk a lot about what your parents want (understandably so), but what do you want? A job in film, network news, cutting trailers etc.? Do you want to move to get a job in your town or move to the big city (scary thought for many)? Any thoughts or ideas?

a job in film or working as a videographer, perferrably a job in film

I might be in the minority here, but I think you should go to college and skip film school. If you have had a camera in your hands for so long then I'm sure you understand the workflow of things, and PA'ing on a few shoots will help you understand working with a larger, legitimate crew (if you don't have any experience with that). Go to college. Learn to write. Take a bunch of English classes so you're forced to write and read. You're probably only 18, take your time. Give yourself a chance to mature. Believe me, all 18 or 19 year olds need that time (whether they think so or not!). Unless, of course, you're family is in a financial situation, where college would be an unnecessary burden.

I personally believe film school is a waste of money, but I think college, for people willing to get everything out of it, is invaluable.

mg

What is a videographer? They shoot weddings and such, don't they? If you really want a job in film and your committed, then move to LA and go to film school. Plan on living and working in LA. there are exceptions of course, but they are few and far between. Film schools have been discussed before, you might want to do a search.

Riley, with all due respect...stay in school.

I think Matthew is pretty close to the mark here.

Although it isn't really about your parents, believe me when I tell you that they have a better idea as to what's best for you and, you still don't know what you want.

I was once in your position and in retrospect, I wasn't quite as smart as I thought.

Once you get out of the school "mindset", it is a real bitch to get back into it. Kinda like the gym...it's allot easier not to go.

I have trained many a film Camera Assistant Apprentice fresh out of film school. They showed up on my camera trucks with textbooks in hand and absolutely no clue as to how to "make" movies or handle themselves on a real set, although they could talk up a storm on theory.

You seem to have a handle on what you want to do. That's great, and nothing should get in your way, and you should continue to do it as much as possible. But beware. This business, especially the film industry, is a dog-eat-dog business.

Get your education, THEN get out there into the real world and KICK SOME SERIOUS ASS! I'll be looking for your name in the credits.

Good luck and GOD bless.

RB

P.S.

LA is not the only answer. As we say on this side of the Country..."We don't care how you do it on the West Coast!"

thanks

This is a thorny, complex issue. Not knowing you personally, it's nearly impossible for any of us to offer valuable guidance. So take my remarks as merely thoughts of a stranger (and someone who's probably older than your parents, at that).

On the one hand, it may seem to make good common sense to leave school until you're certain you know what you want to study. After all, why spend the money aimlessly?

But on the other hand I have to agree with Rick; stay in school The scholastic / academic regimen is indeed very hard to resume after leaving school, even for a year. If you have the academic, financial and emotional support opportunity to continue studies at a collegiate level do so. Taking a break might seem attractive but many distractions can arise within a year or two. Perhaps you'll find a job that pays you "good money", a girlfriend that wants to get married, you set your sights on a new car. Such influences become sirens that draw you perpetually off the education path. Suddenly you're invited to your high school's 10-year reunion. You're still earning pretty nearly what was "good money" to an 18 year old. You don't even remember that girlfriend's name any more. And that car has long since met the compactor.

One last point. There is a natural, and understandable, tendency to view a college education identically to that of a vocational school. That is, you ask yourself, "Will I become rich and successful if I go to college?". That's the wrong view. While a vocational school may provide you with instructional guidance on a very narrow occupation, a good college education can give you something far richer; it teaches you how to learn and exposes you to many disciplines and avenues of knowledge. These are far, far more valuable lifetime skills. Used wisely they can open doors and enrich you for the rest of your life.

I'll close with a personal anecdote. From the age of 14 I was absolutely certain of my professional goal. I spent 10 years of grueling, competitive study in pursuit of that goal. Ironically, after finishing all nine yards of requisite study I ultimately never practiced the profession for which I had studied so hard. Do I feel that I wasted time and money? Absolutely not. There is not a day that passes in which I am not grateful for completing that education and in which I do not use some part of it. Life led me in directions I could not possibly anticipate. But my education enabled me to continue to grow in new directions and keep pace with my new track.

Good luck to you, Riley. I know that most of us 'old-timers' know that you're facing a difficult bend in life's road. If you are fortunate you will encounter many such bends in the road ahead.

Just an off topic question. I noticed someone implied that LA isn't the only answer to finding a job in the film business. I am enrolled at Full Sail in the Orlando area. I'm just curious as to whether there is much opportunity in the Orlando area for a career in the film business. I have yet to move up there, (I don't start untill November) so I havent really been able to look around the area completely. Have any of you worked in the area before?

Orlando has various production jobs and many, many applicants. If you want to work in your field after graduation, be prepared to move.

I agree with Matthew exactly.

Filmschool is unecassary; school is not.

i think i'm going to major in Film/Video or media, so basically I could work in media, video, etc. And working on making it in film outside work. Good idea?

Honestly

The important thing to do is what makes you happy. (I know, how cliched) But it is true. Most people don't learn this lesson fast enough. Go with your gut, go with heart. Do what makes you feel good.

I can understand where you're coming from; my first year at the local community college stunk and didn't offer film. It did the second year and I was pumped to finish my school.

But there is always something to say about having a degree, esp. if you want to teach.

But, if you just want to learn the technical side in a matter of months, you can always go to tech schools that focus on filmmaking, videography, post and more.

Some schools include Conneticut School of Broadcast, New York Film Academy, Palm Beach Film School (where I now teach) and more. Those might be an option if you just want to learn quickly, then go out and start doing your own thing. Or work at a post house, etc.

I also tell people if they're serious about film school as a Bachelor's or Master's degree, consider that you'll also be networking at these schools. The places where you'll meet pros most often is in New York, L.A., North Carolina, Miami and Austin film schools. I'm sure there are others, but those are the most common that I'm aware of. This in no way reflects bad on other great film schools, but on a daily basis, those cities have a lot of pros going in and out of the school.

heath

Hey Dustin,

I am not implying that LA is not the only place...I am stating it as a FACT.

Riley,

Orlando has allot of opportunity, albeit, not as much as LA, but it is still there. There are plenty of opportunities everywhere.

I also know for a fact that Orlando is a tight place to find work, remember my "dog-eat-dog" comment?

There are many other places that give CA a run for its money.

NYC, Miami, North Carolina, MA, TX, etc.

The opportunities are there, you just have to dig in and go for it, especially if you are not already "juiced in" by having connections.

Look around, do not limit yourself, but get your education, and then, grab the bull by the...forget the horns...grab it by the B*LLS and make it your own!

RB

I have to just say one thing, if you decide to go to school in Florida, I'd recommend Miami. That's were around 55% of film, TV and video production is happening.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Rick Bravo : Hey Dustin,

I am not implying that LA is not the only place...I am stating it as a FACT.

Riley,

Orlando has allot of opportunity, albeit, not as much as LA, but it is still there. There are plenty of opportunities everywhere.

I also know for a fact that Orlando is a tight place to find work, remember my "dog-eat-dog" comment?

There are many other places that give CA a run for its money.

NYC, Miami, North Carolina, MA, TX, etc.

The opportunities are there, you just have to dig in and go for it, especially if you are not already "juiced in" by having connections.

Look around, do not limit yourself, but get your education, and then, grab the bull by the...forget the horns...grab it by the B*LLS and make it your own!

RB -->>>


Thanks for the info Rick! I feel a little better about it now. I really like Orlando. Its a really nice and quiet place, and the people are really nice too. Well at least in the parts that I have been in. So I was hoping that I wouldnt have to move away from the area to get a job. But we'll see how it goes...

Jobs are very tough to get in Orlando, very tough. That's why I suggested that you be prepared to move if you want to work in your field. There are lots of new grads and experienced applicants for almost all job openings, all wanting and looking to do the same as you.

Jeff is right; it's a little easier down in Miami. I've been able to get work when I want it. But you also have to know people and they have to know that you are a great, hard worker.

I lived in Orlando 4 years ago for about a year, and it was tough getting freelance work outside of weddings. In West Palm Beach and Miami, it's much easier and I don't do but maybe a wedding a year.

heath

My son just graduated from FAU with a degree in Comunications majoring in film/video studies. Unlike Full Sail, it's an accredited degree with all the requirements that it implies (math, english, and what ever other classes FL requires to get a degree of any sort).
So while the core was film/video (both theoretical and pratical), he also got a well rounded liberal arts education.

Thats going to help him no matter where he ends up.

He got his first job doing PA work with a local production company that does the syndicated ship shape show. They liked his work ethic and want him back for several other shoots.

He didn't stand around acting like a college grad. He did what ever was needed, when ever they needed it. Whether it was putting out the directors cigarette or setting up the lights or recording time cards for the talent. Without complaint, With a
positive attitude. He knows what he wants and is willing to work to get it.

Thats what they are looking for. In exhange, the director is already giving him tips on framing and lighting setups. They are also going to allow him to sit in on editing sessions, just becuase he's willing to go there at night and make the effort. (just to watch and ask a few, very few questions, hehehe, at least for now).

The points?

Get a good well rounded education.

Get your resume in as many hands as possible.

Network like crazy.Hustle every contact, even long shot ones.
Even if you know the person if full of baloney, you never know where they will be 10 years from now. I mean this in positive way, not a sleazy underhanded way.

Exceed their expectations of you. Work you butt off. Don't be afraid to perform better than others doing the same thing. Those others won't get you hired or pay your bills.


Within legal limits, no task is beneath you.

He also supliments his income doing at least one wedding a month.

I'm one proud papa.

//Even if you know the person if full of baloney, you never know where they will be 10 years from now. I mean this in positive way, not a sleazy underhanded way.//

I find this very hard to do but I believe you on this tip.

Ken,

I'm at my 10 year anniversary since high school, and sometimes I wish I could change some things, but I think things are going well.

Joe,

FAU's film/video department is quite lacking, IMHO. I'm going there for my BA degree (something I've never gotten, but always wanted to). But the people are nice and it's close to my apartment. I don't really want to go elsewhere for college. I'm 28 now and working in this area (West Palm Beach, FL).

Keith,

<<-- //Even if you know the person if full of baloney, you never know where they will be 10 years from now. I mean this in positive way, not a sleazy underhanded way.//

I find this very hard to do but I believe you on this tip. -->>

Where was this quote on the 10 years from now you refer to?

heath

Joe Carney's post above my last one.

Whoops, missed that one...

He's right, though, Keith. There have been a lot of people who burned bridges with me over the years. Just recently, one of those people came to me, looking for work on my next film. I read his resume (which wasn't too impressive) and decided his bad attitude hadn't changed and didn't want him on my set.

heath

Heath, FAU is putting a lot of money into the program. They are getting better, but with the emphasis on Broadcast over film making. For the time being all they offer is DV based gear (several XL1s, and soon dvx100s), plus some high end Avid and other setups I've never heard of before. Jojo is actually doing some post graduate classes involving web and animation.

I would take an accredited BA from FAU over one from Full Sail. Though at graduation ceremony the University President came off as something of a nerd. hehehe. But then again I don't have a degree either.

I don't want to keep going on about FAU, but one of the new teachers is an old friend of mine. He's changing things, but the video production class I took last fall with a bunch of friends stunk. SVHS cameras and iMovie. Didn't hear about the DVX100s.

The school I'm teaching at, the Palm Beach Film School, has DVX100s, FCP and Avid XPress Pro. That helps, I think, because most places cut on FCP and Avid!

heath

Film schools in the United States (http://www.filmmaking.net/links/browseresults.asp?country=United%20States)

<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Carney : Unlike Full Sail, it's an accredited degree with all the requirements that it implies (math, english, and what ever other classes FL requires to get a degree of any sort).
-->>>

Full Sail's Film Program DOES offer an Associate of Science Degree when you complete the course.

Full Sail...Very true.

heath

I took my son up there a few years ago. They have exactly 1 35 film camera, and by the time you qualify, there is no garauntee you will get to use it. They divide up everyone by their 'abilities', screenwriter, director, grip, set design. Many students were using some of their own dv equipment to supplement. They do have a nice size sound stage. And the degree is not accredited. Similar to the Art Institute Bachelor program which is not accredited by any recognized education association.
40K for an non accredited associates is pretty high, about 20 times more expensive than many of the community colleges around FL. Valencia CC, not far from UCF, has film/video related courses. Have you checked them out?

Getting an associated from a state CC will apply toward a Bachelors at any State College/University in FL. Plus at least one of them has to let you in. (10 to choose from).
UCF has a growing Film school, but has a year and a half waiting list. You could apply while going to Valencia. And still be in wonderful Orlando! For a lot less money

Valencia has been one of the top, if not the number one, below-the-line film schools in the country. (Below the line schools cover cameras, lighting, editing, etc., but not really directing, producing or writing.)

heath

I graduated from UC San Diego about two years ago with a degree in film. Was it worth it? Yes and no. I think one of the biggest problems for kids (most anyways, there are always exceptions) going into college or other higher education, is that your not mature enough to really appreciate learning. You sort of go through the motions and get your stuff done, but don't take full advantage of your surroundings.
It's funny, since getting out of college I am so much more interested in learning than I ever have been before. I want to learn languages, sciences, everything. I almost feel that a year or two off between highschool and some other schooling is a good idea. Try working as a PA. Volunteer some time and get noticed.
It's also hard for some to get a degree and then work at the bottom level as a grunt, and possibly volunteering your time. Since you went to school to be able to support yourself with a job, this can be a very difficult situation. It's almost as if the degree did nothing.
I think college is a good thing, but it seems in media production, experience, and who you know gets you alot farther.
On the other hand, college can offer opportunites to get those experiences. Not because of the fact that you have a degree, but just because you were there. For example, the summer after my senior year of college, there was a mass e-mail looking for PAs for a tv show. Now they didn't care if you had a degree or not... it was more they just thought to send an e-mail to the school to find young people. So if your not in an environment where those things can happen, then you might not ever get those opportunities.
In retrospect, I wish I had taken a year or two to work for a tv station, volunteered at sundance, tried working as a PA... anything to get some experience and contacts before school. I think I would have appreciated higher learning alot more and gotten more for my buck. After college I still would have those contacts and something on a resume more than a degree to enter the work force with.
That is one of the things that makes film production so exciting, and so scary at the same time. There is no set path to take to get to where you want to go, and no guarantee that you'll even get there. But you also might fall into something that is really wonderful and fascinating that you hadn't even planned on either.
This is my on going tale... hopefully it has helped in some small way. If nothing else just so when you see my name at the top of a post, you know to skip it in favor of wiser words.

Adam said it good.

Riley,

I'm in a similar situation and i think i'm going to go ahead and head for film school. However, this decistion has to be made yourself. I am choosing to go to film school because I think there is a lot I still don't know and I want to know everything. All I know right now is what i've taught myself. Then again, i've only been interested in film since senior year. If you feel that your good enough and there isn't much more you can learn, then go ahead and make a film. The only advantage that you will be missing out on is making connections and possibly having your work viewed by studio reps.
If you do end up wanting to go to film school, please, for the sake of your career, move out of Oklahoma... :) What schools are you thinking about? What's your style?
Anyway, I want to wish you the absolute best of luck in whatever decision you make. And if you're ever here in California, drop me a line.

Best,
Gino Terribilini

<<<-- Originally posted by Adam C Bowman : I graduated from UC San Diego about two years ago with a degree in film. -->>>

I've applied to UCSD (still waiting to hear if I'm going to get in, though) and am wondering what their equipment was like?

I've got my AA from a JC and am transferring there. Are UC schools like this good for Film Majors or are schools where they specialize in it like AI (http://www.artinstitutes.edu/) better?

It depends on what seems more important to you. At AFI it would be more like a technical degree where you learn more of the craft or hands on part of film. At a UC or many other undergraduate programs alot of it is theory and study(with the exception of UCLA). If your goal is to work in Hollywood for big productions, AFI is a safer bet. But with the undergraduate program, you get a better all around education and you become a better student of the art of film rather than a student of the craft. If that makes sense. The other thing is that alot of undergraduate programs being more theory and art oriented tend to lean to the avant-garde in their program. Not to sayt this is necassarily bad, but you wont be studying "Pirates of the Caribean." Instead you'll look at alot of foreign films, independent, (not searchlight) and experimental films. The up side of that is that you get exposed to very different films that you might not otherwise discover, and in truth gives you a greater understanding of the art of film, and then hopefully become a better filmmaker.
NOW HERES THE WARNING! With the undergraduate program at a school like UCSD, you come out with a better appreciation for a good film, and a disgust for trash. In essence the friday night at the cineplex is ruined for the most part. You realise that 90% of the films out there are put together just fine, but are in no way artfully crafted, and truthfully a 100 million dollar consumer driven piece of trash.
As far as their equipment it was pretty good, and they are always upgrading. They have a team of techs that keep things running smooth, and plenty of staff that know how to use it so there should be no reason that the resources aren't there to learn how to use the tools of production.
As a final two cents to add to my $3.76 worth up above, if you have the time, and don't mind school, both an undergraduate and AFI might be a good thing. I also think you have to have a decent portfolio to get into AFI, (i might be wrong on that) and a good way to develope that is through an undergraduate program. That way when all is said and done, you have the technical skills from AFI, and the theory of good filmmaking from the arty undergraduate.

Damn... halfway through writing this dribble, I second guessed myself and went back to change all AI to AFI. I was thinking AI would be artificial inteligence, and a terrible film, and AFI is the american film institute. After realising you were talking about another AI, I went and took a look at AI's program at the LA school as an example. and it seems the same applies to that program as well. More technical skills oriented, obviously some theory, but not as art as it is craft minded. So there you go.
(another five minutes later)
Oh i just went back and watched a quiktime movie they said was about the Video Production program, and it was a little clip showing a computer program, (Affter effects possibly) with a voice over talking alot of program jargon about layers and enhancing the video. What she means is that they are adding titles. Seemed a little silly for a introduction to a Video Production Program.
I also think they only work in video and seems more of a television oriented program than film. At an undergraduate program, you most likely would get exposure to different mediums like motion picture film, still photography, video, etc..... At least that was my experience at UCSD.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I was looking at AFI too (and thats how I found AI in the first place) but it seems like it may be difficult to get into and I have no portfolio or teacher recommendations. I should also mention that I can go to any California state funded school (CSU or UC) for free due to a VA fee waiver I've received.

My plan is to get a bachelors at UCSD and then hopefully get enough done there to get into UCLA. But if I fail to get into either school (I'm still waiting for an acceptance letter), I wanted to explore the AFI type schools (although they look damn expensive).

That reminds me. In RES magazine, they said one of the coolest unusual vacations to go on was the
week long course at the NY Film Academy. The one that advertises in the various independent movie zines.

Anybody know anything about them?

Never done it myself; acquaintances have. Off the top of my head I can't think of anyone who has taken that course and then gone on to serious work. Short courses have the disadvantage of not providing the depth and breadth of networking really needed to launch a career, but most of them do teach bare bones basics.

More reputable are the Maine workshops, and they have the benefit of being held in a more vacationy environs and social atmosphere to boot.

this sounds like a good thread. I know the maine workshops have been mentioned before. Any else know of a good short course for the working adult? Preferably in summer.

One of the more interesting film schools I've run across is the European Film College. They have an 8 month course (click here) (http://www.efc.dk/frame/8month.html) that's designed like a workshop, and they give you a good selection of theoretical and hands on classes to choose from. Their main focus seems to be to promote collaboration among the students. It's designed to expose beginners to a wide range of film/video knowledge and know-how.

You do have to be very self-motivated, but for approx. US$10,000 which includes food and lodging, it's not a bad deal. I'm seriously thinking of signing up, looks like a lot of fun.


Also have heard a lot of good feedback on the Maine workshops from friends who have taken the weekend courses. Very fun and social.

Ebeltoft, Denmark, eh?

"You do have to be very self-motivated, but for approx. US$10,000 which includes food and lodging, it's not a bad deal. "

So for So for 10 Grand you will have 8 months of food and lodging covered for you?

Also if you have to be a very self motivated type of person, which most sucsessfull people are, there is probably a way to gain all of that knowlege for a lot less than 10,000 bucks. I'm not bashing the idea completely but it seems to me that this forum has the potential to lead any of us to the answers to any of our AV quiestions.

<<<-- Originally posted by Cleveland Brown : So for 10 Grand you will have 8 months of food and lodging covered for you?. -->>>

That is correct, food, lodging, classes, plus access to equipment, studios, and other motivated people. It's like an 8 month movie making summer camp.

I can see where that could be pretty cool. I guess that it is government subsidised so that makes it cheaper. But I can tell you that Northern Europe is not a pleasant place to be during that time of year. Freeeeeezzzzing ass cold. So it's more like winter camp.