The ex1 would always win with image quality. It is in a whole different league, 1/2 inch. Full raster blah blah...it's the low light that I wanted to comment on. It's amazing, although the Z7 is the best HDV camera I have seen in low light.

Am shooting a project soon which will all be at night. The ex1 was my number one camera of choice for that.

If I had 4k I would totally get a z7 to replace my z1. Love the photo of it with a zeiss digi prime on it!

Ethan, am very flattered. Call me.

If I had 4k I would totally get a z7 to replace my z1.

Is that 4k in Euros or Pounds? 'Cause it's more like 6k in US dollars.

oh thats pounds! Our progressive society won't let us move to the Euro (my mum is French so am very continental!)

Well the EX1 has true 1920x1080 cmos sensors whereas the Z7 has half that with 960x540 sensors (offset, interpolated and rotated to different angles, but half sized none-the-less).
I'm pretty sure the Z7 has 960x1080 sensors, not 960x540. The specs are at http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/view/ShowProduct.action?product=HVR-Z7E&site=biz_en_GB&pageType=TechnicalSpecs&imageType=Main&category=HDVCamcorders and they talk of "Approx. 1,037,000 pixels (effective), ....". (And 960x1080=1,036,800, so.....!!)

Hence no need to interpolate in the vertical direction (which makes the processing much easier than H & V pixel shift, especially in an interlace case) and H pixel shifting should take the res up to about 1.2-1.3x 960, so around the 1200 mark.

Sounds a good match for the recording format, and the 1 megapixel on 1/3" and 2 megapixel on 1/2" (EX) should indeed mean the physical size of the pixels is similar in each case. From that, if all else was equal, I'd expect them to have similar sensitivities, but the EX to be sharper.

I'm pretty sure the Z7 has 960x1080 sensors, not 960x540. The specs are at http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/view/ShowProduct.action?product=HVR-Z7E&site=biz_en_GB&pageType=TechnicalSpecs&imageType=Main&category=HDVCamcorders and they talk of "Approx. 1,037,000 pixels (effective), ....". (And 960x1080=1,036,800, so.....!!)

Hence no need to interpolate in the vertical direction (which makes the processing much easier than H & V pixel shift, especially in an interlace case) and H pixel shifting should take the res up to about 1.2-1.3x 960, so around the 1200 mark.

Sounds a good match for the recording format, and the 1 megapixel on 1/3" and 2 megapixel on 1/2" (EX) should indeed mean the physical size of the pixels is similar in each case. From that, if all else was equal, I'd expect them to have similar sensitivities, but the EX to be sharper.

You are absolutey right. My mistake. So the progressive modes on the Z7 should look very good as well. It makes sense to do it this way on a camera limited to 1440 format recording.

I think it's important to note that the xdcamhd specification utilizes the same 1440x1080 specification as hdv or hdcam for that matter. I think the draw of the full raster chips in the ex1 is due to the hd-sdi outputting uncompressed full res hd. Also, sony's clearvid technology doesn't shift pixels, but interpolate the areas between pixels (basically the corners of each pixel) to get increased resolution for each color, not just overall resolution, which is what pixel shifting effectively does. I don't think we can make any definitive arguments until somebody stacks these two cams side by side and shoots grayscale, color and resolution charts. Arguments notwithstanding, both cameras offer huge improvements to cameras in this price range.

WHOA! Hang on there fellas.

I'm only saying that looking through the LCD screen testing the cameras side by side, the Z7 IN LOW LIGHT is equal to the PD150-170 range, far better than the Z1 or V1 and about equal to the EX.

In terms of image quality, the EX is probably the best option you got! I never said anything in regards to that, i was only talking about Low Light with my cajun mate Chad.

@ Gabriel - would a rolling record function make you feel better about solid state recording over yards and yards of tape of 'not very much happening'?

Rolling record would be a great feature, as well as the 'instant-on' recording that CF cards should make possible on the Z7. I have had to tell whole roomfulls of people, many times, "hang on, just a sec... any second now...really..." while waiting for the FX-1 to spin up after I hit record. But neither feature is a substitute for being able to run tons of tape through the cam.

Ok, honestly, one of my only issues with the Z7 is that it doesn't look as pretty as the EX-1. There, I said it. The Z7 looks like a meatloaf on a stick. Granted, if it has low-light performance like the pd170, it will be a very handy meatloaf on a stick.

Have you guys seen this size comparison of EX-1, Z7, and Z1?

http://blog.so-net.ne.jp/hamapro/2008-02-08

Look how gigantic the EX-1 is! Waahaha!

. They listed the PD150 as 1.5 lux (the PD170 as 1 lux), and the Z7 as 1.5 lux - but at 1/25th sec shutter speed as I said. Of course the Z7's amplifiers will be quieter than the PD170s which will help you in the gain levels.
tom.

**Slow kid question ahead**

So if the camera was rated at 1.5 lux at 1/25th sec shutter speed, what would that be at 1/60th? Sorry for the noobish question, but I'm kinda new to this.

Thanks,

Chad

I must say, I don't quite understand this camera's pricepoint.

If the Z7 and the Ex-1 cost basically the same for the camera, the 1/2" chip model is the choice.

The main draw seems to be the option to put a 35mm adapter directly on the body, but I don't think I want to give up chip real estate & bit rate just for that.

Although the CF card sounds nice.

I don't know why Sony did not put 1/2" chips in this camera and sell it for a little more than the EX-1, like the EX-1a.

Once you use larger chips, it is hard to justify using anything less.

If the Z7 and the Ex-1 cost basically the same for the camera, the 1/2" chip model is the choice.

They really seem to be quite different in price - just because of the SxS cards, hard drives or bluray for archive, etc etc.... Laptops and card readers for field offload.... After all is said and done, you're paying a good bit more for the EX.... I'm personally holding out for a 35mbps solid state/tape (or bluray) with interchangeable lenses, under 10k. That's my personal holy grail, until then, I can achieve a greater improvement to my video, personally, by investing in filters, lighting, and audio....

C

Such a great thread, guys. Not a silly question at all Carl, and manufacturer's published low-lux levels are invariably non-interchangeable between manufacturers and I'm even beginning to think between different models from the same manufacturer.

If you jump from 1/25th sec to 1/60th sec you'll need to more than double the amount of light in the room to get the same exposure on tape, but getting this figure into lux levels is not so easy.

So the offers from people like Phil and Laurence to test them side-by-side (as John Beale has done so extensively with the VX and FX) is really the only true comparison to make. That way we can find out if zero dB of gain up really is zero, or if there's a sneaky electronic boost being applied at all times just to keep up in this race.

tom.

Agreed - we need a shootout.

They really seem to be quite different in price - just because of the SxS cards, hard drives or bluray for archive, etc etc.... Laptops and card readers for field offload.... After all is said and done, you're paying a good bit more for the EX....

I would have to say the extra $2,000 or so is worth the chip size and bit rate jump to me.

After thinking about this a bit more, if Sony would have made the EX-1 and an interchangeable lens version (a la JVC 200), they could have impacted Panasonic and JVC with one camera release.

I don't think this camera (Z7) will sell very well at $6,500.

Hey Tim,
I agree with your stance on the difference between the EX1 and The Z7. Purchasing the EX1 is the better choice for me as I don't have 3 to 6 cameras to replace. I would only replace 1 as I do solo shooting with a back up cam at my events. I do see how the Z7 fits better for most event videographers. I can name quite a few that are actually purchasing these camcorders. I think it will still do well but it won't have a huge market to work with. There are quite a few event videographers that have gone the EX1 route but they replace 2-3 cameras. I'm set on upgrading to the EX1 but am awaiting what Red has up there sleeve with Scarlet. If Scarlet is a very good option I will hold off and get that one but if not the EX1 is my option. I agree with many people here that the price of the Z7 is quite steep as I was hoping for it to land in the $5 g's.

I agree that a weak point for the EX-1 is long record times.

If/when I get an EX-1, for the time being, it will not be for my event work. It will be for specialty shooting.

The Scarlet camera might be a real gem, but the time to get it to market and get one in your hands might be a while.

It seems like we are on the verge of the HD market really opening up and offering some better value for the money.

I believe the EX-1 will force Panasonic & JVC to up the image quality for less money as 1/3" chip HD cameras can no longer sell anywhere close to the $6,000 range and expect to woo anybody.

The tough part is waiting to purchase!

Regarding the z7u, I really think it's too soon to say that: "Sony is going to have a hard time selling these cameras." I for one think that the improvements to this camera are well worth the price. Canon's xl-h1 currently sells for $8000, just to provide reference, and not with alot of features offered in the sony unit, albeit with an added sdi jack comming out the side.

Also, it seems to me that the Ex-1 is more geared towards projects using the larger xdcam hd cameras that need a smallish camera to fill the b cam, c cam role.

To say that the sub-$10,000 camcorder market will have to move up to 1/2" chips doesn't make sense to me. You can see the size difference between the two cameras, the ex1 looks absolutely massive compared with the z7u. Sony is the currently the only manufacturer who is putting out 1/2" hd cameras.

Sony is claiming this as gen 3 for hdv cameras. I can't wait to see some bench tests put out so we can actually see improvements to color fidelity and resolution over previous models and the cams from the competition.

With regard to the size comparison between the EX and Z7: I haven't seen either camera yet, but I don't believe that the EX is really gigantic compared to the Z7. Check out the picture on a page from Adam Wilt's review of the EX. Left to right: HVX200, PMW-EX1, HVR-Z1. The Z7 should be about the same size as the Z1 (or FX1).

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/review_sony_pmw_ex1_1_2_3_cmos_hd_camcorder/P1/

When you replace the Z7 lens with a wide angle lens instead of adding one on to the front of the regular lens, the Z7 will definitely be the shortest and lightest option.

Have you guys seen this size comparison of EX-1, Z7, and Z1?

http://blog.so-net.ne.jp/hamapro/2008-02-08

Look how gigantic the EX-1 is! Waahaha!

check the link out: yes, with the wide angle it seems the hv7 will be light and small indeed

You're right. I didn't check out the entire page. Light and small is good, as long as you can keep a steady handheld shot with it.

I've been going back and forth between the two cameras also. I wish that it cost less, but right now, the Z7 looks like the best fit for me.

To say that the sub-$10,000 camcorder market will have to move up to 1/2" chips doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe my assertion about not being able to sell the Z7 is premature, but I am not sold on the 1/3" is the new 1/2" in HD.

Maybe I am crusty, but I moved up from 1/3" chips in the DV world, and I would like to stay at 1/2" or higher due to the higher quality image that results.

I believe the market will have to come down to what people are willing to pay (or what their clients will pay for) and in my view, once people start buying $100 Blu-Ray players, they are going to want HD at DV prices.

To me, $10,000 is a lot to pay for a 1/3" chip camera considering the DV equivalent yielded a 1/2" broadcast camera with a nice lens for less.

As a small business owner, I only have so much pricing power. I just do not see being able to charge double for HD services.

Tim,

This is fairly off topic, but I don't think you'll get your wish, at least not in the near future. Sony may indeed release a future gen of the s270 shoulder mount camera with half inch chips for under ten grand (or xdcam disc or solid state for that matter). While you might see a price drop in cameras, and while you may be right that the electronics are not that different and that 1/2" chips don't take that much more space than 1/3" chips, the glass in front of the camera is going to be more expensive and keep the price prohibitive for people like me and yourself. Thats what's so ground breaking about the EX1.

Keep in mind that ex1 only has a 14x zoom. If you look at broadcast glass in the 1/2" range, you're looking to spend at least $8k for the lens alone, not including camera, batteries, case, etc. In sd days, a cheap lens was fine to put in front of a 1/2" dv camera, but we're living in a hd world these days (I'm sure this is why Sony went with a 12x zoom instead of matching canon's 20x). I would be curious to put either camera (z7u or ex1) up next to your 1/2" dv camera and see the results. I'm sure either hd camera would blow the dv camera away. If you need an excuse to charge your clients more money, just claim that we're in a recession right now.

It says available in Feb '08, but I thought we would have seen a review unit out before it was released. Does that scare anyone else?

http://blog.so-net.ne.jp/hamapro/

We need a translator:

If you scroll down there is a comparison between the v1j and the z7j. Pretty good improvement wouldn't you say.

(I found this link on another thread of this forum)

I would be curious to put either camera (z7u or ex1) up next to your 1/2" dv camera and see the results. I'm sure either hd camera would blow the dv camera away.

I would be interested to see this as well, but I know the EX-1 would look better due to the much higher data rate and equal chip size.

I don't know about 1/3" cameras looking "better".

Sure they have resolution, and the color space can look good, but I can still often notice 1/3" lattitude wrapped up in a high resolution package.

Although I have to admit, most of my curmudgeonesque views are based on my experiences with DV cams and looking at a lot of posted footage around the internet.

I am sure these cameras have a wow factor when one uses them .

It is just tough to go from my "big" cameras to little ones again and see it as progress.

My hope is that Sony continues with the EX line and makes a fixed lens 20x zoom shoulder mount version for around $10,000 and an interchangeable lens version like the Z7.

I really like the concept of the Z7 camera, I just am looking to the future and not wanting a camera I will grow out of once some economies of scale kick in.

Thanks for your counter point!

http://blog.so-net.ne.jp/hamapro/

We need a translator:

If you scroll down there is a comparison between the v1j and the z7j. Pretty good improvement wouldn't you say.

(I found this link on another thread of this forum)

I ran it through Google Translate (http://www.google.com/translate_t), but it really didn't help that much. I would love to see a list of all of the lenses that will work with the cameras. I doubt I will buy any extras for my line of work.

It says available in Feb '08, but I thought we would have seen a review unit out before it was released. Does that scare anyone else?

If the pdf file you uploaded holds true on the price, depending on how the reviews of the model come in I may actually pick one up now.

Do resellers honor the manufacturer's "suggested reseller price?"
How is that pricing structure set?

The "reseller's price" listed in that PDF is about $1000 less than the prices I've seen for pre-orders.

If the pdf file you uploaded holds true on the price, based on reviews of the model I may actually pick one up now.

Can you please link to the reviews you are referring to? My rep told me they expect them to be in stock within two weeks and will email me my price as soon as the item is entered into the system. I'll let you know what I find out, but I don't think it will be as high as BH.

-Chad

Hey Chad,
When I mentioned based on reviews I meant forth coming reviews. I know of 3 people getting Z7's the end of the week and am awaiting what they say about it. When I do see those reviews I will provide you a link.



Brian I don't know how the reseller pricing works. But it may come down to that price after a couple of months. If it does my FX7 is going to be up for sale with the best offer takes it. I'm sick of it's lowlight performance.

Monday,
Selling an FX7 on the cheap? I don't really like it's low light either, but I'm too poor to get one of those fancy schmancy new ones. Just how cheap are we talking here? You can email me off list if you'd like.

Brian I don't know how the reseller pricing works. But it may come down to that price after a couple of months.

Well, if that's true, then waiting a couple of months sounds like a good idea to me. Not only will that give some time for some reviews of the Z7 to come out and (hopefully!) the price to drop, but also to see what this Red "Scarlet" cam is all about. If Red delivers something in a comparable price range to the Z7, that may be an even more attractive option.

I know, I know, "If you're waiting you ain't creating." But for those of us for whom $5-$6K is a sizeable investment, it pays to make sure that investment will meet our needs for a long time to come. I've waited this long to upgrade from my PD-150, which has served me faithfully for 7 years now. I can wait a couple more months if I need to.

Can you please link to the reviews you are referring to? My rep told me they expect them to be in stock within two weeks and will email me my price as soon as the item is entered into the system. I'll let you know what I find out, but I don't think it will be as high as BH.

-Chad

Chad go here

A Cinematographer name Darryl Smith posted the video on youtube and made a hd divx version available for all to view

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE2UXvwtFts

also you can download the HD divx version here
http://www.stage6.com/user/24PCinema/video/2183995/Pre-Release-Sony-27U-HD-CAM-TEST-SHOOT

The Divx version looks pretty good

The YouTube video has the wrong aspect ratio.
Ummm... yeah.

That's youtube for you. click the box inside of the box button it will scale it down

good to know

Don't bother with YouTube. View the www.stage6.com linked one. I just have. Very nice!!! I want one!

It's clear now that EX1 features true 1920x1080 HD sensors, whilst Z7 employs some sort of anamorphic cheating.

However there are two questions yet.

We know that Z7 utilizes ClearVid CMOS with rotated pixels. But I am not sure, whether EX1 employs the same ClearVid technology, or not.

Also, my concern is the camera noise levels. It seems like EX1 has been designed with cheaper DXP, which returns signal with very pure S/N level - 54 dB (typical).
The Z7 S/N ratio specs hasn't been announced yet.

Any comments?

It's clear now that EX1 features true 1920x1080 HD sensors, whilst Z7 employs some sort of anamorphic cheating.


Well even the most expensive CineAlta HD line employs this "anamorphic cheating", so it can't be all that bad! ;-)

Yes, my comment is that the Z7 isn't cheating in the slightest - it's a camcorder that follows the HDV specification to the letter.

True 1920x1080 HD is very compelling feature, because I shoot mainly in progressive mode, and that is where you can point at sight, whether is it a true HD or anamorphic cheating (or some kind of compromise, if this suits you better, Tom).

But what bothers me is the rather unacceptable noise level (54dB S/N is very pure performance indeed). So, what causes that noise: EXIMOR sensor itself or cheap signal processor (I heard that Sony guys used 12bit DXP in this model)? Unfortunately, Sony leave us guessing...

And they didn't reveal S/N performance on Z7 at all!

I doubt we can expect any comment from Sony, in particular taking in mind that these cameras were developed by two different teams: Z7 in Japan, and EX1 in US. So, if someone had a grip on both cameras, please comment.

Geese, I've seen some pretty amazing stuff come off of an ex1, regardless of signal to noise ratio. You may gaff at the low light levels, or remark on the pore noise floor of the chips, but when it all comes down to it, people who are skilled at making images are going to absolutely love either of these two cameras. And yes, despite any complaint there may be against the z7u or s270, these cameras are going to appeal to a lot users.

Two things that really haven't been discussed here that I think really matter:

The quality of the zeiss lens. Lets hope for something fantastic here.

And since Sony is calling these cams gen3 hdv, I'm hoping for a more robust mpg2 encoder.

If the lens is great, and the encoding is good, added with improved chip technology, then you put enough light into these cameras they are absolutely going to floor people with their image.

...The quality of the zeiss lens. Lets hope for something fantastic here... a more robust mpg2 encoder

Don't forget the 'savings' of encoding complexity by shooting progressive rather than interlaced - the 'mouse teeth' in areas of motion are as bad as grain or noise to an MPEG-style encoder.

I've been on record bemoaning the Z1 lens as being soft (in comparison with the HVX and Canon cameras), and whilst I'm sure the EX-1's Fujinon is an absolute peach, I'd settle for a good all-round improvement on the T*.

54db s/n ratio seems to be the norm for hd cameras as far as I can tell. Any word on the new lens?

I've been seriously considering the EX1 for the last month or so now, but recently I'm beginning to think that the Z7 could actually be the better option for me, doing weddings and documentaries. It is great with the CF so that I can still do my SDEs but also have a backup on tape, and its also cheaper so I would get a better return on the investment quicker I imagine.

I've been seriously considering the EX1 for the last month or so now, but recently I'm beginning to think that the Z7 could actually be the better option for me, doing weddings and documentaries.

It seems there's a whole bunch of us going through this analysis paralysis. My wife's sick of it. My mates are sick of it. I'm getting pretty tired of it, but it's my money (and lots of it).

Sony, in their infinite wisdom, have made darn sure that there's no clear winner. If the EX-1 did FireWire downconvert to SD DV, or if the Z7 had 1/2" chips, there would be unacceptable cannibalization of sales of its sibling.

Try costing out an EX-1 (with 2x 16GB cards, 2x large batteries) and compare with a similar Z7 with Letus kit, which will out-do the DoF of the EX-1 yet will strip down to a neat run & gun.

Okay, if you were doing work like Phil Bloom (for broadcast), the EX-1 wins because it's NOT HDV, rather than because it IS XDCAM-HD. Compared to a Z1, it's a handheld nightmare, but if you're used to a DSR-450 (and up), it's a peach.

The EX-1 downconvert has been a big downer (groan). I've found a workflow for Progressive PAL, but not Interlaced PAL, and with reference to threads elsewhere, I'll gladly share what works for me, but lack the time and the motivation to nail an NTSC 29.97i method when this Z7 sits there smugly proffering both.

It seems to be as harsh as this: if you and your clients are still in a predominantly SD workflow with interlacing, you're better off with a Z7 for now.

Laurence,

How are your Transcend and Kingston CF cards working out ?

Laurence,

How are your Transcend and Kingston CF cards working out ?

The both seem to work just fine. I haven't recorded anything substancial. Just tests, but those seem to be fine.