This kind of makes me sad. All of this discussion about the z7u vs the ex1 and the thread dries up when sony starts shipment.

No side by side tests? Anybody want to shoot some resolution charts or color charts? Any reports on low light capability?

The Z1 has an f/2.8 max aperture at full tele and the Z7 is a stop faster at f/2.

I was quite amused to see him refer to the Z1's lens as 'being .8 better'. It makes me want to take all the test results with a bucket of salt. Make of it what you will.

tom.

.8 better meaning at the telephoto end with the same or similar focal length the Z7 lens does not stop down therefore there is more light available to the sensor. What is wrong with that...? Where are your examples?

I would think they would come up, but I just attached them here. Nothing scientific, just practical test in the exact same lighting. with both cameras at default and in full manual.

I don't get it?

Not quite the "test" results I was looking for. Lets hope for a good review.

I don't get it?

Not quite the "test" results I was looking for. Lets hope for a good review.

My primary concern is performance in extreme low light, so I quickly tested a Z1 and Z7 in the 2 comps and settings I commonly use in extreme low light, which is 15db 1/30 and full telephoto. The images were essentially the same with the Z7 winning at telephoto because of the lens, which is good for me, but I am very dissapointed that the Z7's chips are no more sensitive or cleaner for that matter than the 3+ yr old Z1.

Try the Z7 in 30p and 24p and see if you don't like the results better.

Try the Z7 in 30p and 24p and see if you don't like the results better.

Already did and I am pleased with the progressive modes, especially compared to the bogus 24F modes of FX/Z1, but the light sensitivity is still no different than the Z1.

I would start converting my project workflow to 30P and maybe 24P just for the cleaner stills, but I work in Sony Vegas and I have heard grumblings on how poorly Vegas is handling slow motion interpolation of progressive footage.....

Bruce, thanks much for the pictures. If you feel like you have the time, it would be really sweet if you could shoot a grayscale chart, or color chip chart (or both), if you have these on hand. I'm not completely sure, but I think there are a few places that you can find these charts for a free download. I'm interested to see how these cameras perform under normal lighting conditions with proper illumination. Also, shooting these charts at full gain would tell us lots about these cameras as well.

Thanks for your posts and interests.

Greg Hartzell

Already did and I am pleased with the progressive modes, especially compared to the bogus 24F modes of FX/Z1, but the light sensitivity is still no different than the Z1.

I would start converting my project workflow to 30P and maybe 24P just for the cleaner stills, but I work in Sony Vegas and I have heard grumblings on how poorly Vegas is handling slow motion interpolation of progressive footage.....

You need to change the shutter rate too: 30 or 24 depending on the frame rate. I get a real jump in low light brightness when I do this.

Laurence - you're presumably slowing the shutter speed by more than a stop when you switch from 60i to 24p, so I'm not surprised you get a 'jump in low light brightness'. You should be able to film in less than half the light.

tom.

Laurence - you're presumably slowing the shutter speed by more than a stop when you switch from 60i to 24p, so I'm not surprised you get a 'jump in low light brightness'. You should be able to film in less than half the light.

tom.

Tom, yes that is the case. I was responding to this post:

Already did and I am pleased with the progressive modes, especially compared to the bogus 24F modes of FX/Z1, but the light sensitivity is still no different than the Z1.

He should be seeing quite a marked difference. I know I am.

Laurence if you have some time can you post stills of the difference? Thanks

Monday

Thanks for the still, Bruce. I for one would be very interested to see the Z1 at 60i with high gain vs. Z7 at 24p with high gain. This is where the difference should shine through, so to speak?

You need to change the shutter rate too: 30 or 24 depending on the frame rate. I get a real jump in low light brightness when I do this.

The settings are in the file name. I was at 15db 1/30 shutter which I most often use in lowlight weddings. going to 24P 1/24 is no better than 60i 1/15 because the illumination is basically the same, but the footage is generally unusable because of excessive blur

Thanks for the still, Bruce. I for one would be very interested to see the Z1 at 60i with high gain vs. Z7 at 24p with high gain. This is where the difference should shine through, so to speak?

Not much difference at all. It seems the gain noise is a little finer on the Z7, but for all practical purposes they are pretty much the same.

I will have much better feedback this weekend as I will be shooting a lot of real world footage in various lighting conditions.

Hmmm, interesting. So how does this square with the folks who are saying that the Z7 is comparable to the PD170 in low light?

Already did and I am pleased with the progressive modes, especially compared to the bogus 24F modes of FX/Z1, but the light sensitivity is still no different than the Z1.

I would start converting my project workflow to 30P and maybe 24P just for the cleaner stills, but I work in Sony Vegas and I have heard grumblings on how poorly Vegas is handling slow motion interpolation of progressive footage.....


BRUCE I have had no problems with slow motion in Vegas I shoot in 24p and 30p for most on my weddings. When shooting in 24p the shutter speed should be set to 48. 30p shutter 30.THe footage on my wedding demo is shot with 90% HVR-V1U'S 30P MODE and 10%HDR-FX1 60I rendered to 30p Timeline Sony Vegas Pro 8.
http://www.dvdaction.net/dvdaction_002.htm

Also when comparing the Z7U to the FX1 as for as gain the Z7 low gain is -6 and the high gain is +21 while the FX1 low gain starts @ 0 and goes to +18. So can you say that the 0 gain setting is the same on both cams when comparing them.

Brian, I don't own a Z7 - but own a Z1 and a new EX1.

2 questions

I noticed you shoot 24p for weddings. Any issues with that when it comes to panning (motion judder). I assume if you keep your pans slow you are ok.
Any issues with dance at 24p? I really like the look and thinking of going this route. Any advice?

Secondly, based on the feedback i'm seeing above - would you say the sensitivity of the Z7 is basically the same as the Z1 with the progressive capability of the V1

Paul

Brian, I don't own a Z7 - but own a Z1 and a new EX1.

2 questions

I noticed you shoot 24p for weddings. Any issues with that when it comes to panning (motion judder). I assume if you keep your pans slow you are ok.
Any issues with dance at 24p? I really like the look and thinking of going this route. Any advice?

Secondly, based on the feedback i'm seeing above - would you say the sensitivity of the Z7 is basically the same as the Z1 with the progressive capability of the V1

Paul

The clips on the demo footage is 30p you do have to use slower pans with 24p footage. I post some wedding clips in 24p next week.

I own the Z7, EX and HC1 sold my V1, z1, and Fx1. The Z7 does have better low light sensitivity than the FX1 . I will borrow an FX1 and try to do a comparision between the three cams this weekend.

BRUCE I have had no problems with slow motion in Vegas I shoot in 24p and 30p for most on my weddings. When shooting in 24p the shutter speed should be set to 48. 30p shutter 30.THe footage on my wedding demo is shot with 90% HVR-V1U'S 30P MODE and 10%HDR-FX1 60I rendered to 30p Timeline Sony Vegas Pro 8.
http://www.dvdaction.net/dvdaction_002.htm

Also when comparing the Z7U to the FX1 as for as gain the Z7 low gain is -6 and the high gain is +21 while the FX1 low gain starts @ 0 and goes to +18. So can you say that the 0 gain setting is the same on both cams when comparing them.

I'll check out your footage, thanks for the info on 24 & 30P in Vegas

If you look at the 15db 1/30 shots you can see the Z7 looks a little darker, but at 0 gain they look the same and the Z1 goes to 21db , but it looks like through the gain range they match up very clse, so the 21db is like a middle ground to the hypergain

I shot this today ... pretty interesting. My white balance was a little off on the ex1, but you get the idea.
Oh, and the progressive is differen than v1. Footage shot in progressive on the z7 won't play back in the z1, but progressive shot on the v1 can play back on the z1. Hmmmmmm.
For the comparison I used a Sony LED light.

I shot this today ... pretty interesting. My white balance was a little off on the ex1, but you get the idea.
Oh, and the progressive is differen than v1. Footage shot in progressive on the z7 won't play back in the z1, but progressive shot on the v1 can play back on the z1. Hmmmmmm.
For the comparison I used a Sony LED light.

hey david, were these shot with relatively the same WB? It seems like the EX1 shots exude a much higher yellow prominence in the color balance than the Z7 does, otherwise the low light sensitivity seems relatively similar.

Hi David nice test...lots of work!
Did you perform the test in progressive? If so, I am under the impression that the Z1 really doesn't have true progressive. Progressive will double the light sensitivity right off the bat on the EX1 and Z7.
I wish that there was a comparison done with the 3 cameras in 1080i, hence all things being equal. Also, it would be inportant to do that test with +3 and +6 db gain on each camera and look at the noise difference. The Z1 will tolerate gain and actually requires gain to optimize performance.
Thanks again, Craig

These were all shot in 60i for a fair comparison. I did shoot with a higher db, but forgot to lock down the shutter on the ex1 and so instead of getting brighter it went to a higher shutter speed - I'll have to reshoot those.

The white balance is off on the ex1. I shot this a few hours after getting the camera and was still trying to figure some things out. However, if you zoom in to the picture, you can see how much better the ex1 for picture quality. I also shot the ex1 with the same rez as hdv and not full HD.

Here are the high rez photos:

www.davidperryfilms.com/images/0db.jpg
www.davidperryfilms.com/images/0db_50light.jpg
www.davidperryfilms.com/images/0db_100light.jpg
www.davidperryfilms.com/images/comparison.jpg

Here is the z1u and the z7u at 12db

It is interesting to see the Z1 and Z7 like this. If nothing else is shows the better lens of the Z7

K

Those are approximately 1.5 megapixel images (the full size frame grabs). If the softer image from the Z1 (compared to Z7) is due to lens, that would seem to imply that the glass in the Z1 lens is pretty poor quality. Looks to me that the imagers in the Z7 outperform the imagers in the Z1 (quite noticeably). After seeing those comparison images, I'm a lot more interested in the Z7 now.

I don't have much experience with the Z1 but I do have a V1 and the lens is much much smaller than the Z7. I don't know if I'd say the Z1 is "pretty poor quality". More likely the Z7 is very high quality and the Z1 is average to above average. It does look like Sony did put a lot of the Z7 costs into the lens.

Keith

What I was pointing out is, that even if the lens on the Z7 used glass that was absolutely perfect (theoretical of course), the glass in the Z1 would almost surely have to be of pretty awful quality to soften a 1.5 megapixel image, from a 1/3" sensor, that much (at least I would think). These aren't images from 35mm film or a 10 megapixel DSLR camera, where differences in lens quality have a far more noticeable impact. I'm impressed at what Sony is doing with their CMOS imagers.

Wow, just look at the whites in the focus charts between the two cams at 12db. Drastically different gain structures for highlights.

Would anyone with a Z7 and an XH-A1 (or G1 or XL-H1) care to do a similar comparison to David's?

I could probably do a comparison with the Canon's as well since I have friends with those cameras. Maybe beginning of next week.

That would be awesome David.

I am not sure what is meant by your reply. Do you agree or not--can't tell. Better lenses would be noticeable even at 1.5 megapix or manufactures of cameras would just use cheap lenses.

I work for a museum and 8 years ago when they started taking digital photographs of art with a 2.1 megapixel Nikon camera our professional photographer did not use cheap lenses.

Granted softer images do come from several aspects of the camera however, the lenses are a big factor.


Those are approximately 1.5 megapixel images (the full size frame grabs). If the softer image from the Z1 (compared to Z7) is due to lens, that would seem to imply that the glass in the Z1 lens is pretty poor quality. Looks to me that the imagers in the Z7 outperform the imagers in the Z1 (quite noticeably). After seeing those comparison images, I'm a lot more interested in the Z7 now.

I'm sure lens quality is part of the difference between the IQ of the Z1 images and the Z7 images David posted, but I doubt it is most of the difference. I guess "cheap" is something of a relative term. Certainly the quality of glass makes less of a difference with a 1.5 megapixel image than with much higher resolution images.

This is great stuff, thanks David. If you have (even more) time, it would be really interesting to see how 24p material on the Z7 compares.

I'd be interested to see how the 24p from the Z7 compares to 24F out of the A1 (or equivalent camera).

Even though I was on the fence months ago re:EX1 vs Z7, I must say that to date, I am very happy with the decision to purchase the EX1. The most important factor is image quality. The 1/2" sensors reallly make a difference and overall, the camera's performance is outstanding. Clearly, the tapeless work flow is terrific. So much so, that it seems strange to pack tapes to go along with our Z1U. The lens is super sharp and the control over depth of field is amazing. Just thought I'd post some feedback.
Best, Craig

Clearly, the tapeless work flow is terrific. So much so, that it seems strange to pack tapes to go along with our Z1U.

How many cards do you have? B/c I would rather buy 100 tapes for $500 than put down $, $ & more $ for cards & drives. The workflow really only still works for limited usages.



The lens is super sharp and the control over depth of field is amazing. Just thought I'd post some feedback.
Best, Craig

Have you tried the Z7/S270 lens? I'm wondering how people like them in comparison to each other.


...if only the EX1 had interchangable glass & a tape drive, then it wouldn't be such a tough decision on which camera to buy when workflow & glass are in the control of the owner

David, is the color fidelity of the EX1 significantly superior to the Z7U or the same? Your shirt appears brown in the zoomed EX1 and gray/black for the Z7U? No doubt the EX1 resolution is better, but the Z7U colors look muted in comparison. Thanks, Elliott
...if you zoom in to the picture, you can see how much better the ex1 for picture quality. I also shot the ex1 with the same rez as hdv and not full HD.

Here are the high rez photos: www.davidperryfilms.com/images/comparison.jpg