After self-inflicted accidental deletion problems last weekend, I'm now having trouble with the Browsing software.

I think it may be connected with accessing files on an external Hard Drive, but while I'm shuffling files around to make space on some internal drives, could I confirm I've copied the files from the SxS cards properly (I can't find help in the Help files!)

I've shot a single job onto effectively 4 different SxS cards. including a couple of times where a shot continued from one slot to the other.

When I copy the files from these cards, do I copy everything into a single BPAV folder, to enable the Browsing software to join everything up?

Thanks for any clarification.

Its new to me too. I think each card should be kept in a seperate designated folder and then accessed by the browser. Because every BPAV is the same they must not be mixed up or you will overwrite material. From what I gather every BPAV from a card must go into its own named folder and that will be its home for ever. Dog Jensen's Vortex Media DVD spells it out in words of one syllable and means you have a good chance of not getting mixed up.

Thanks for the reply Bruce - I just found some info on the original CDRom and am trying to make sense of what should be easy ..... if it's not clear, I'll have another look at Doug Jensen's DVD which I have.

Even though the directory structure is the same on each card, if you copy each card to a different folder how will the Clip Browser find the clip to be joined?

I think you should copy each card to the same folder. The files themselves should not get overwritten as each clip is assigned a unique filename(number). Then with everything in the same folder, Clip Browser can find and join clips spread across different cards.

Okay, that is my take on how things should (might) work. I don't know for sure and would like for someone who has actually done this to clarify the situitation.

I've finally deduced that I need to use the Sony Clip Browser for everything related to SxS card file management: copying, deleting, and exporting. Copying anything in windows explorer won't copy the BPAV file without corrupting it. Erasing from the SxS card with Explorer will corrupt the SxS card so the EX1 tells me I need to "restructure" it.

It's vital that any changes you make to the content of the BPAV folders is only done using the clip browser. Failure to do so will result in a corrupted file structure and can lead to all kinds of issues later.
The best way to manage and archive the folders is to copy the entire folder into a new folder. The new folder you can name whatever you want.

For example I would create a folder called "Dog Show" then inside that folder create a folder called "card 1". Copy the entire BPAV folder into "card 1" so that when I open "card 1" inside it you will find the "BPAV" folder. I would then make a new "card" folder for each of you BPAV folders.

Then when you navigate to the "Dog Show" folder using clip browser it show all the sub folders. As you open the folders for each card Clip browser will find any clips that have been spanned across multiple cards and join them automatically.

Thanks Alister.

I did exactly what you described - had four folders named 1,2,3 & 4, into which I copied the contents of each of the four cards - namely the BPAV folder and all folders within.

When accessing the clips in the bottom part of the browser and exporting them to MXF format, however, it did NOT automatically join up clips which spanned different cards, in fact it threw up a warning message that there was a part only of a take.

So, there is a missing link somewhere, and I think it's something to do with combining files, using the Browser software as you say. The directions on the original CD rom I found difficult to follow - they kept referring to sections on other pages, then those sections themselves referred to other sections....

If I ruled the world there would be a paragraph which said simply:

When you have clips which span across different cards, this is what you do:
Step 1 xxxx
Step 2 xxx
Step 3 xxx
Step 4 xxx

I'm sure somebody out there must have successfully combined clips that spanned two cards. But until they post and tell us exactly how to do it, I guess I'll have to run some tests and see what really works. Unfortunately, I am separated from my camera for another month, so my testing will have to wait.

When accessing the clips in the bottom part of the browser and exporting them to MXF format, however, it did NOT automatically join up clips which spanned different cards, in fact it threw up a warning message that there was a part only of a take.

So, there is a missing link somewhere, and I think it's something to do with combining files, using the Browser software as you say.

I think the missing link is simple: when accessing split clips, you need to fist copy them into a selected location on your HDD (the Browser will then merge the split parts together), and only export from the combined, sigle mp4 clip (still held as separate files in separate subfolders under the target BPAV direcory) in the second stage - only then wil a single, full-lenth mxf clip/file be created.

Sorry Piotr, but it's not quite that simple.
Everything seems to need to be in a BPAV folder, so when you say "when accessing split clips, you need to first copy them into a selected location on your HDD", please specify exactly WHICH files need to be copied, and into which BPAV folder?

I suspect that whatever combining takes place, it must be done with the Browser software, not just by copying in Windows explorer.

ANY access, whatsoever, of the SxS card, short of browsing there with Explorer, will corrupt the SxS card. Copy, export, delete of files on the SxScard, by necessity, needs to be done with the Sony Clip Browser. In the SCB, copying from the Sxs card to the hard drive will copy that file and the entire BPAV directory and sub-folders.Any further file copying will move that file into the BPAV folder structure you created in the first copy. You can't rename the BPAV folder on your HD, but, you can store it in any master folder title you wish.

Sorry Piotr, but it's not quite that simple.
Everything seems to need to be in a BPAV folder, so when you say "when accessing split clips, you need to first copy them into a selected location on your HDD", please specify exactly WHICH files need to be copied, and into which BPAV folder?

I suspect that whatever combining takes place, it must be done with the Browser software, not just by copying in Windows explorer.

Exactly Peter - when I say "copy", I mean the Clip Browser "Copy" function, not the Windows Explorer copy! In the Clip Browser I select all clips on the mounted card (they all may be just chunks of a long take - created either due to the FAT32, 4GB filesize limitation, or the SxS card capacity limit exceeded), select Copy and point it to a prepared directory on my PC's HDD. Then I mount another card and repeat the Copy process (to the same directory; not any separate subfolder!). See the attached dir tree as resulting in the Windows Explorer below; I copied two card's worth into a directory called "Span test". The clip D01_003 consisted of 4 chunks; the first 3 were created because of the FAT32 limitation, and the third was additionally span across two SxS cards.

It creates the right structure automatically, and displays the combined files as a single clip in the other Clip browser's pane. Then, and only then, I can select it as a whole, and export the seamlesly merged mxf.

All your meesages have been of great value to me as I have just bought the PMW EX1, can someone tell me; I am having probems using Clip Browser, I have been traying to access the clips directly from the camera as I have'nt bought the USB card reader as yet - everytime I try to read from the cards in the camera it seems to take forever, is this because the camera is not powerful enough to read through the USB to the PC?

Appreciate your thoughts before I spend another chunk of money!

Regards
Mike

It certainly is not the camera being not powerful enough (assuming it's functioning properly). USB connection on some computers can be slow; depending on some HW/SW conflicts, it may revert from High speed (USB2.0) to the crappy USB1.1 (or even 1.0) protocol.

Very difficult to diagnose remotely; try to use the direct USB sockets on your PC mainboard, and not those in the front panel.

Ultimately, buy a PCIe->ExpressCard adapter; it can be several times faster that even USB2.0 at High Speed.

Many thanks, I have it conected to a PCi express usb card, can I ask when you open the Browser software does it take a few seconds to open correctly, it seems very slow?

The clips I aim to import are quite long, some are probebly 25mins, could that be the issue?

Thanks
Mike

Mike, tell us what reader do you have exactly?

Rather than reading straight from the camera, I first copy the BPAV folder to a hard drive then work from there.

Rather than reading straight from the camera, I first copy the BPAV folder to a hard drive then work from there.

I understand the Mike has problems with the copying process being slow - hence my question about his detialed setup. I used to connect the camera via USB until the mini USB port got broken; now I'm using an ExpressCard reader with PCIe (NOT USB) connectivity. It's a breeze!

Hi, when you say reader, I presume your talking about the software version, I think its 1.01.07 1567 and the Pci express usb card is a Garmin.

I read the reply with regard to copying to the HDD first but that also was going to take forever and would be quicker doing a streight capture in real time!

Really appreciate this guys.

Mike

No Michael, when I say "reader" I mean the SxS card reader (hardware). I understand it's one of those PCIe to ExpressCard adapters (please give a link to it). I have one too (front loading), and while indeed capable of PCIe speeds, it is also compatible with USB-inrerfaced ExpressCards (not SxS). Since you say it is slow, I don't think it's actually using the PCIe connection - if it were, you would be able to copy a full 8 GB card in some 2-3 minutes (I'm getting this sort of speed with mine).

If it only uses USB2.0 connection, it should take 2-3 times that long; if (as I speculated earlier), due to some system problems, it reverts to the older USB1.1 protocol, it will take ages - in fact, close to real time - i.e. some 30 minutes.

This is roughly 10x slower than it should be capable of, and you would be right complaining!

Hi Piotr,

Sorry for my naff explaining, I have bought a USB PCiexpress card i.e fits into the PC - not card reader, this then conects to the camera using USB lead.

I think your questions have maybe pointed out the problem, which card reader do you have because copying 8gig is prety quick, my USB just isnt fast enough!

Mike

Mike,

I'm using this one:

http://www.synchrotech.com/products-expc/pcie-expresscard-slot-drive_03.html

When it does see a card, it's fast as a blaze. BUT, you need to poewr up the PC with an SxS card in the drive; otherwise it won't recognize it. And, after you read a card, you must use Device Manager to uninstall the drive before inserting another one; then you must install the device again...

It's not that much of a problem, as I shut down my PC very seldom - put it to sleep instead.

What a star you are, i've just had the card reader deivered and installed, it recognised the 79mins in 5 seconds, fantastic bit of kit.

Thanks so much for all your valued help.

Regards
Mike

I'm glad I could help, Mike.

Another important note to all EX1 users: here is yet another scenario when copying the entire SxS structure onto you HDD before exporting to MXF can save your data integrity:

Suppose that while shooting - being so much focused on framing and camera settings - you accidently hit the "Slot Slect" button on your camera (can happen easily enough). Without you being aware, your clip has been split and is now spanning the two cards!

If you connect the card to your PC (any method), open the Clip Browser and Export to mxf BEFORE copying the structures of BOTH cards first - it will create mxf's (issuing some warnings perhaps). But you will never be able to seamlessly stitch your separate files back into the original, single take!

However, if you first COPY both cards (in any sequence) into the same, single HDD folder, the Clip Browser will concatenate the fragments for you; when you then export them to mxf's - you will get exactly the same number and duration of clips as those of the takes you had actually recorded.

Piotr, that's good to read, and I've read it elsewhere, but haven't yet actually managed to do this yet.

Could you please be specific. Which files or folders from the SxS cards do you copy in to which folder on your HDD, bearing in mind that you can't have two folders called BPAV in the same folder ...

Thanks.

Peter, you just copy all the cards contents into the same, single HDD folder of your choice; the Clip Browser will take care of your filenames. I wrote about earlier in this thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=836630&postcount=12

Thanks Piotr - I assume if I try and copy two folders called BPAV to the same directory, I'll get the message about "this folder already exists", but I should clcik "Yes" and let it copy the contained files, which hopefully will have different names to those from the other SxS card, into the same folder

Thanks Piotr - I assume if I try and copy two folders called BPAV to the same directory, I'll get the message about "this folder already exists", but I should clcik "Yes" and let it copy the contained files, which hopefully will have different names to those from the other SxS card, into the same folder

Using the Clip Browser copy function (NOT that of Windows Explorer), you won't even get this message - it knows what to do with your existing file structure, and how to add new subfolders being copied.

Disclaimer: you probably MIGHT overwrite something if you reset the clips counter/naming in the camera menu, though! If you did, simply use another HDD folder for the process.

Hi PIotr,

I have just read your post with regard to copying the files to hard drive first, I have'nt tried this yet as I have been creating the files to import into CS3 directly from the Browser program.

Is the hardware card as fast when copying clips to HDD first?

Also I have checked everywhere and cannot find forum that mentions an error message I had from Clip Browser; "probelms converting partial take" is this a clip that was too short to convert?

Regards
Mike

Michael,
When using my ExpressCard readers (either the one on my Vaio laptop, or the PCIe one in my desktop), it really is super-fast.

The message you mention may be due to exactly what I described a couple of messages above - when exporting a clip that is actually spanning two cards.

Copying all first, and only then exporting will take care of that.

Once again, thanks Piotr. You confused me for a while, as I thought you were talking about copying BEFORE opening the Clip Browser - that's what "copying to HDD" normally means - but you're talking about using a copy function WITHIN the Clip Browser.

- but you're talking about using a copy function WITHIN the Clip Browser.

Exactly, Peter!!!

Hi Peter,

I've been following your converastion, I have a query, when I import the BPAV folder in to edit, I get duplicated copies of all footage, MPeg & XML files any ideas?

Mike

Hi All,

I am losing the plot, could someone explain to me why when importing the BPAV folder to begin edditing, I am seeing duplicated files, these are Mpeg and what seems to be a perfect copyies but as XML, please help! surly these extra files are taking up memory and space on the HDD.

Michael,

Sorry, I cannot help you any more. I have heard of double clips when importing to FCP; also now - with Premiere CS3 supporting EX1 - there are mixed reports on how it works; please search the forum (and elsewhere).

Using Vegas or Edius, I have never come across any problems of this kind, so I cannot comment.

Piotr

No problem, I have searched other sites with no luck as yet, I may even turn to Vagas 8! Thanks anyway.

Piotr wrote: "Using the Clip Browser copy function (NOT that of Windows Explorer), you won't even get this message - it knows what to do with your existing file structure, and how to add new subfolders being copied."

Hi Piotr - I can't believe I'm still stumbling over this - I'm just capturing the first project I've had with card-overlapping clips since you wrote this.

The Clip Browser "Copy" function you refer to .... the only one I can find is under the "Edit" drop down, and this is simply the Windows Ctrl+C.

Is this right - if so please help by explaining:

Do I use the top or the bottom window in Clip Browser?

Having highlighted a clip and selected Edit/Copy, how and where do I paste?

Sorry I'm taking a while to learn all this, but what seemed simple isn't so easy once inside Clip Browser.

Peter

Peter,

What I am doing (and believe me - without any problems since I adopted this method), is this:

1. On my PC (usually the laptop, if in-field) HDD, create a new folder for the new project (not for a single card content, but entire project, no matter how many cards it'll be using), let's name it Project1

2. Insert the first card to be off-loaded to the reader, start the Clip Browser, and navigate the lower pane to the card, and the upper pane to Project1

3. Select all clips (using either CNTRL or SHIFT and the mouse) on the card, select COPY from the right-click menu (of the Clip Browser - not that of the Explorer!)

4. Click in the Project 1 (upper pane of the Clip browser - NOT the folder in Windows Explorer!), and from the right-click menu select PASTE (again, within the Clip Browser - not the Explorer!)

............

5. Repeat steps 2-4 for each consecutive cards, making up the project. As long as you don't reset the clip numbering in the camera menu, never worry about overwriting anything and alike.


After doing it with several cards, it may happen that when counting the thumbnails in the upper pane (Prooject1 folder on your HDD), the number will be lower than the total number of clips on all cards you copied. This is OK, as the Clip Browser just merged the FAT32 limitation-due chunks, and/or the partial files of clips spanning cards - if any existed.

What I do next is my personal preference (YMMV), but here it goes:

Since I usually do the above using my laptop in-field, I connect TWO external eSATA HDDs (using the ExpressCard to eSATA card with 2 ports), and from the upper pane of the Clip Browser (showing Project1 "takes" - i.e. clips already merged back as necessary if spilt on cards), I use the EXPORT MXF function to the RAID 1 that the 2 drives are configured into.

Upon returning back to my office, one of the drives goes to the shelf as an archive, and the other is connected to my main editing system's port - and editing may begin!

Thanks for your time and knowledge, Piotr.

I'll have to save your method for next time, because believe it or not, the following just happened:

Before I started following your steps, I went to delete the clip that was already sitting in the top panel, thinking I was just deleting it from the Clip Browser program, but .... it deleted it from the Card!!!

Fortunately I had already made a back up copy on my hard drive, so I can complete my edit without doing what you suggest, but copying from a HD folder rather than directly from the SxS Card.

The learning goes on ........

We're all learning, Peter :)

Please note that while the above method has been bullet-proof for me when acquiring lots of material in field, sometimes I do cut the corners - for example, with some not so important, single card shots (e.g. testing my PP's), I'd go straight to my main editing PC and bypass the COPY stage altogether - EXPORTing the clips on the card (in the lower pane) straight to a folder of my choice on the PC's HDD.

But also note that with mission-critical material, COPYing first (using Clip Browser's COPY) is very important, even if you *think* there are no spanning clips... As an example, imagine you have inadvertently knocked the "Slot select" button on your camera while shooting; recording switched from A to B, you noticed it after several seconds and pressed the button back! You will end with your (intended single) take in 3 clips (2 on card A, one on card B).

When you COPY first, they will be combined back seamlessy into your single take, which you can later EXPORT as an mxf ready to be edited.


I also should have added that I've been using my method having just two 8 GB cards and no helping hand in the filed, yet I luckily never lost anything. Worth mentioning is that after having COPied your card with my method, before ejecting it, you just right-click in the lower pane (where all the clips are still selected for you), and from the menu choose DELETE. After ejecting, the card is ready for recording again - no need for re-formatting!

Yes, thanks Piotr

Mind you, I'm hoping that the next update of Vegas will be able to accept files straight from the camera, as I believe Premiere already can ....

Yes, thanks Piotr

Mind you, I'm hoping that the next update of Vegas will be able to accept files straight from the camera, as I believe Premiere already can ....

If it does, it will only make the last step of EXPORTing to mxf unnecessary (though not obsolete - depending on the editing preferences), with everything before this last step unchanged.

Unless of course someone is planning to edit off the SxS cards directly, which is not a good idea IMHO (even if you don't need it immdeidately for continuous shooting).