hello gang,
I'm looking in the archives for dv decks to save the wear and tear on my XL1.
Couldn't find anything...any thoughts on what's out there? Something basic, I don't really care for the bells & whistles; I'll save that for FCP...thanks, Ted.

MiniDV? I use a Sony GV-D300, works well. Some folks use a ZR-10 or other low cost 1-CCD camcorder player/recorder for around the same price. As a bonus it gives a backup (if of limited capability) camcorder.

I have a Sony dsr-20 DVCAM/DV deck that has served me well. I firewire from my Canon XL-1 to make DVCAM protection masters of all my DV footage. It cost me $2700. new, but has been worth every penny.

This is a great deck for many uses...it integrates a MiniDV deck with a SVHS transport.

I have a review at:
http://www.zenera.com/reviews/jvcsrvs10u.html

As a variant on the ZR10 theme, I use an Elura. It has the analog inputs that the XL1 maddeningly lacks, plus as was pointed out, it serves as a backup camera. And the Elura is SO-O-O small, it works as a "stealth-cam" for shooting unnoticed. Yes, it's a one-CCD rig, but remarkable in performance for its size & price. The footage cuts in pretty well with other DV footage. Try having your assistant shoot some cutaways/B roll while you do the main shot. Of course, it is almost impossible to hold such a bitty thing still, but at least it doesn't take up much space in your bag.

Plus, the elura has a memory card to shoot stills to check the scene, lighting, etc. before rolling tape.

Plus the Elura has the important secret weapon for one-chip camcorders... an RGB color filter. Goes a long way toward getting a three-chip look. The Elura and Optura Pi are the only Canons that have it.

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Ward : I have a Sony dsr-20 DVCAM/DV deck that has served me well. I firewire from my Canon XL-1 to make DVCAM protection masters of all my DV footage. It cost me $2700. new, but has been worth every penny. -->>>

Does this deck have high quality (1/5 speed) slow motion and or frame by frame capabilities?

Thanks, Al Van Vliet

It does both though I've only used the frame by frame.

There's also the slightly cheaper Sony DSR-11 DVCAM/DV/miniDV deck that's nice and small. It is PAL/NTSC switchable. I've been using one with FCP and ShuttlePro and it works great! Only drawback I've found, so far, is that there is no timecode display.

Hi all, I just logged on and there was a subject that's causing me a lot of grief at the moment Perhaps someone can throw some light on the prob.
We recently bought a Panasonic DV 2000 deck to save wear & tear on the XL1. When the tape is played back through the camera all is fine, but when we play the tape through the Panasonic deck the sound breaks up badly.
Panasonic inform us that the XL1 is at fault by not being properly aligned, whereby Canon inform us that that there is nothing wrong with the camera, but the deck in not compatible.
Who's telling the truth? Has anyone had similar experiences, if so what's the remedy?
Regards to all
David

<<<-- Originally posted by africats : There's also the slightly cheaper Sony DSR-11 DVCAM/DV/miniDV deck that's nice and small. It is PAL/NTSC switchable. I've been using one with FCP and ShuttlePro and it works great! Only drawback I've found, so far, is that there is no timecode display. -->>>

I think the DSR-11 will be the model I go with when my XL-1 gets here in a week. You can get some great deals on them on ebay. I just saw a new one in the box go for around 1500.

i have a panasonic deck. my GL tapes play excellent .. however just recently on my canon elura tapes the sound is breaking up on the deck but they playback fine from GL & elura.

Mr. Phillips,

I have a AGDV-2000 that works flawlessly with my XL-1s (plural) and my GL-1. I do have a question for you - are you recording in SP or LP? I have been told that to get the best results with LP that one should playback in the camera that shot the material. (I don't have a problem with that myself, but I wonder if it might be true in your case).

Another question - do you experience that problem with both the firewire out as well as analog (if it occours in only one it may help narrow down the problem).

Finally, if you would like to send me a tape I'd be happy so see if I can duplicate the problem on my deck.

Good Luck -

Mat Cain
DeCa Videoworks
decavideo@ev1.net

Mat,
If someone is actually taping in LP, let's try talking him out of it. Tape is cheap enough, and the added run time to be gained by taping at the lower speed is just not worth it. Can always buy more cassettes, but there's no way to go back and add quality to a recording. Just my $.02 here.

Graphics guy -

I know it is taboo to record in LP but I lets face it people do it all the time and I admit it... I do it on occasion as well. Though I don't prefer taping in LP - I find it difficult to see any noticeable image quality drop-off.

You seemed to miss the point of my post - I wasn't preaching the advantages of taping in LP but rather trying to help someone who has a problem. So "lets try" not to go off on a rant about our own personal views on tape speed and focus on helping folks on this forum.

Thanks for your $.02 and there is $.02 more....

Mat Cain
DeCa Videoworks





<<<-- Originally posted by the graphics guy : Mat,
If someone is actually taping in LP, let's try talking him out of it. Tape is cheap enough, and the added run time to be gained by taping at the lower speed is just not worth it. Can always buy more cassettes, but there's no way to go back and add quality to a recording. Just my $.02 here. -->>>

David --

I have used a DV-2000 deck for quite a while. I've had no problems playing tapes shot on my XL-1. I have the deck tied into a MAC G3. During playback of recorded tapes, I get an occasional drop-out, but other than that, it's a pretty good deck. I also use the deck to make archive copies of projects on full size cassettes.

--Vic

<<<-- Originally posted by David Phillips : Hi all, I just logged on and there was a subject that's causing me a lot of grief at the moment Perhaps someone can throw some light on the prob.
We recently bought a Panasonic DV 2000 deck to save wear & tear on the XL1. When the tape is played back through the camera all is fine, but when we play the tape through the Panasonic deck the sound breaks up badly.
Panasonic inform us that the XL1 is at fault by not being properly aligned, whereby Canon inform us that that there is nothing wrong with the camera, but the deck in not compatible.
Who's telling the truth? Has anyone had similar experiences, if so what's the remedy?
Regards to all
David -->>>

We also have a Panasonic AG-DV2000 and experienced sound problems with tapes recorded in an XL-1. We actually have 3 XL-1's and two their tapes played fine while the third one gave us problems with sound (which played fine in the XL-1 itself).

The bottom line was that the bad XL-1's heads were out of alignment. Upon repair, tapes from that camera played in the deck again (however, the bad tapes would no longer play in the camera because it was back in alignment and the tape was not). However, within 3 months, the camera was exhibiting the same symptoms once again. This time, canon replaced the heads and, to this point, we have not had another problem with that camera.

<<<-- Originally posted by africats : There's also the slightly cheaper Sony DSR-11 DVCAM/DV/miniDV deck that's nice and small. It is PAL/NTSC switchable. I've been using one with FCP and ShuttlePro and it works great! Only drawback I've found, so far, is that there is no timecode display. -->>>

I also read that you can connect an analog source to the deck's inputs and have this video passed through the deck, straight over Firewire to a PC or Mac connected to it. If you need to import analog sources to your Firewire editing system, you don't need to record to DV tape first and transfer that to the computer later. With this deck, you can do that in one single pass.

This might be a stupid question but is the opposite also true? Can I connect an analog source to the deck's outputs and have the video passed from the computer through Firewire to the deck and out the composite video without recording to DV tape first?

Yep -- Works just fine. My DV-2000 feeds a DA (Dist. Amp) and you can either record a DV tape simultaneously, or just use the deck as a D/A converter.

Cheers, Vic

Hey, that sounds great, sure wish my Elura would allow for Firewire capture of analogue sources without first making a digital master--it sure would save time. It does though, do direct to analogue going the other way, I can bang out VHS tapes right off the timeline feeding out of the A/V jacks on the Elura into the DA (dist amp) feeding my VHS decks. Of course I also am recording on the Elura at the same time anyway, may as well make a digital master of the finished edit while we're at it, it doesn't take any longer, but I don't have to.

Hi all,
many thanks for all your replies and offers of sollutions to our problem. However, we have now solved it in the following way.
The camera plays back perfectly, the problem only arises when we play back through the DV-2000, this is presumably because the Canon heads are not aligned properly.
To solve the problem we record a 'master' from the XL1 to the DV-2000 which then plays back perfectly.
We have also experienced a similar sound problem when using
Maxell tapes, which we no longer use.
Many thanks
David Phillips (Gemini Productions)

Any recomendations on a mini dv deck?
I have been looking at the JVC and Panasonics in the $1000 to $1500 price range.
I would like to hear any pros and cons about the different models out there.
Thanks,
Jeff

Jeff,
Using the Search function you should find many discussions related to DV decks here. The Sony DSR-11 is a (relatively) low-cost standard for miniDV/DVCam. I use a Panasonic AG-DV1000 deck (miniDV-only and many others use the AG-DV2000 with good results.

I use the AG-DV2000. It works great for me.

I use a mini-dv canon ZR-10 (now discontinued, bought it right after it became discontinued, $399)
with the firewire it connects to my G-4 AND I have an extra camera in a pinch. I usually shoot with an XL-1

I've always gone straight from my XL-1 to my Mac. What are the advantages of using a deck over the way I've been doing it? Mainly reducing wear and tear on the camera?

I've always gone straight from my XL-1 to my Mac. What are the advantages of using a deck over the way I've been doing it? Mainly reducing wear and tear on the camera?

Certainly, wear and tear on your camera's tape transport is a primary reason to use a deck for capture. But beyond that you'll quickly discover that deck transports are -much- quicker to cue and are designed for jog/shuttle operations that are so hard on cameras. Once you've used a deck you'll never want to go back to using a camera's transport.

Uh-Oh, John -- you have an echo......

Wear and tear is only one reason, from my perspective. My DV-2000 is also much more versatile and is always available. I print my masters on the full size cassettes, since many of the performances run 2 - 21/2 hours or so. The deck is connected to my DA, so it's an easy matter to make the VHS dubs.

If you're not doing the mastering and subsequent printing, then it's just a matter of doubling the wear and tear on a $4000 camera by using it as a VCR.

Thanks. Looks like yet another purchase I should probably add to the list. Never ends, does it?

Not sure if I can go with JVC or Panasonics in the price range Jeff1769 mentions. I'll check out the DV-2000 and see how much of a dent it'll put in my wallet.

<<<-- Originally posted by zchildress : Thanks. Looks like yet another purchase I should probably add to the list. Never ends, does it? -->>>

Never. But it wouldn't be any fun if it did, would it?

John, if you ever expect to have to deal with DVCam tapes (in or out) you should look at the Sony DSR-11 deck. It costs just a bit more and doesn't have the time code displays on the front panel (not very useful anyway when using your NLE) but it's small and would give you both miniDV and DVCam capabilities.

Just a recommendation.

Thanks, Ken. I'll check it out.

Ken has a good point, John. I've also been considering the Sony DSR-11. Pricewise, it comes in around the same as the DV-2000, and also will print both sizes of cassettes, PLUS operate in the DV-CAM mode. I get an occasional drop-out with standard DV format, and my guess is that the prevalence of this is less in DV-CAM.

You're right -- it REALLY never ends!

Another advantage of the DSR-11 is that it's NTSC / PAL switchable (it will not transcode from one standard to another, however). The primary disadvantages of the DSR-11 is that it doesn't have a headphone jack and no front panel display. Some folks like the comfort of seeing those numbers turning, but with this deck all you'll get is a red light to insure you it's recording.

You guys have me tossing and turning nights now, talking in my sleep "Deck. Deeeeck. Gotta git one. Gotta git ooooone."

So, since you're the source of the dark circles under my eyes...a couple more questions. First, I've sent off to proMAX for a quote on the DSR-11. At first glance, it does bug me that there isn't a front panel dislplay or headphone jack. To those of you that endorsed this model, if you had a chance to spend a bit more to get these things, would it be worth it? Or has the absense of these features been unnoticeable to you?

And Chris? Any recommendations for a model that does have the front panel display and headphones AND the sweet features of the DSR-11? I see a whole line of DSR models on ZGC...but nary a one has a price on it. So, no idea if the difference between each model is $1 or $1,000.

Considering how long I've been hanging around these forums, I'm a tad embarrassed to ask this question...related to the questions above. What the heck is DVCAM? And would I ever deal with DVCAM if I'm using the XL-1 and miniDV?

(remember, I'm in the land 'o zero English info!)

Hi John,

DVCAM, eh? Run, don't walk, to Adam Wilt's DV FAQ website. Go to www.dvinfo.net, click on resources, then click on the link to his site. Spend at least an hour going over his material. He has a DV format comparison breakdown that spells everything out in plain english.

Adam is a hell of a nice guy; it's my hope that you'll get a chance to meet him in person sometime. He is *the* DV Guru of our modern age. Hope this helps,

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the link. I keep forgetting about that site for some reason. I read through Adam's comments on comparisons between DV, DVCAM, and DVPro...and this is the one line that stands out for me

<<What's the difference between DV, DVCAM, and DVCPRO? Not a lot!>>

So, not sure why having a DVCAM capability on a deck is something I should even worry about. From what he says, it all depends on the quality along the way...quality of the lens, quality of the camera, quality of the tape, and quality of the transfer and compression.

John,

As I understand it, remember I'm in the same boat, DVCAM is SONY's priority Pro DV Format, Panasonic has DVC Pro or is that JVC? Anyway, it uses MiniDV tapes but at a different tape speed and uses a different compression algorithum. I;m sure there is lots more, 50 something vs 25 something but I can't remember what.

I'm sure Don or Chris will have a more in depth answer

An upgrade from the DSR-11 that does have all the goodies displayed is the DSR-20. It comes in around 3K. I don't believe that is does PAL, though.

DV-CAM is a Sony format for laying down the code on mini-DV and full size DV cassettes. It runs at a faster speed than DV, and is a more robust format (i.e, less subject to drop-outs). The XL-1 will not record or play DV-CAM, but if you are printing to tape masters, DV-CAM is probably a little more reliable for a clean master tape.

I just bought a DSR-20 from B&H Photo, because it has a time code display. It cost a little more than the DSR-11, but, oh well. The one thing that the DSR-11 has is the ability to play PAL. Can't do this with the -20. DVCAM is the Sony proprietary DV format. There's no performance diff between DV and DVCAM, that I can see. It has a better recording pitch, but, I don't notice any improvements. Both units have a 12v capability....good insurance for me in case the record head fails on my XL1s. I'd really like to record to HD, but, I find the Firestore plus Firewire drive a bit too bulky.

I'm envious, Bill. Please update us if you experience any drops using DV-CAM (if you use that mode for mastering). I get an occasional one with my DV-2000, and I've always thught that DV-CAM would be less prone to that.

I have the Firestore, but my confidence isn't there yet. I've had some success with it, but on more than one occasion, video appeared to be recording to the FW drive (1-hour continuous), but when I tried to access the files, there were just a bunch of 32K files, with no data in them. Fortunately, I was running a tape. I'm still experimenting, trying to figure that one out.

DVCam is a step up on the prefessional ladder from MiniDV. It is used a lot in ENG. DVCam cameras have a smaller compression ratio than MiniDV and produce a better image (if the camera operator knows what they are doing).
A good sight to go and check out comparisons of the various digital format cameras (and shooting video for eventual transfer to film) is Scott Billups' site http://www.pixelmonger.com

It can get complicated at times. If you really want to be confused, you could check out his book "Digital Moviemaking" as well. He contradicts himeself sometimes (compared to the info he puts on his site), but he's been around since the first video cameras started coming out, and has invented some advancements (at least oneadopted by - I think it was Sony).

Derrick Nelson

Sorry to contradict, but this just isn't true. DV and DVCAM use the same compression codecs at 5:1 compression. Audio is locked on the DVCAM. The rest of the differences are all in the storage format on tape and tape speed. I would sure like to know how to produce a better image with the DV codec(re:less compression).

My fault - I got DVCam and DVCPro confused (too many formats out there) - DVCPro has a compression ratio of 4.1:1.

Derrick

From what I understand mindv, dvcam and dvcpro use the same compression ratio. Dvcpro50 is a better ratio. I shoot on minidv with an xl1 and master finished projects to dvcam because it has a higher tape speed making is a little more stable and less prone to drop outs. There is no difference however in the image quality of mindv and dvcam, it just depends on your camera head.

No, DVCPro is definitely 4.1:1 compression ratio. The color sampl;ing is the same, however - a disappointing 4:1:1 color bit-sample rate. (disappointing at least for someone who wants to transfer shorts shot on video to film).

Derrick

Panasonic's website lists dvcpro as 5:1 and dvcpro50 as 3:3:1

That's right. Check Adam Wilt's DV FAQ at www.adamwilt.com.

DVCPro50 is a different type of DV standard called DV50. It refers to a bandwidth of 50mbs, as opposed to DV, DVCAM and DVCPro which are all known as DV25 formats, with a bandwidth of 25mbs.

Again, the Adam Wilt DV FAQ is more or less the definitive explanation in layman's terms of the different digital video formats.

Thanks Chris,

Adam's is by far the best explanation I have found on the digital formats.