I'm in the process of selling my XL2 and looking for something a bit smaller. I think I've narrowed it down to either the HV30, HG21 or the new hfs10. My initial thought is to wait for the new HFs10. I don't mind spending the money, however I would be really be discouraged if I paid double and the quality difference wasn't there. I've seen some samples from the HV30 that have been pretty impressive. I guess my biggest concern is the HDV vs MPEG4-AVC. What will yield the best results, clarity, lack of noise, color production? I understand that the HFS10 has way higher resolution, but how is that affected by compression. Maybe they have made leaps and bounds in compression, but I'm kinda old school and where I come from compression is not a good thing... Any ideas or advice would be great. I really like Canon, but how would these compare to the sony hdsr12?

The difference between the HDV and AVCHD formats is not in image "quality" so much as recording options and workflow. Compression is pretty much a non-issue these days... *all* digital video is compressed. It's just a question of how efficient the compression is. The AVCHD codec is about twice as efficient in encoding as HDV. Regardless, I would say that you probably won't be able to detect any difference in image quality between any of these camcorders, HDV or AVCHD, when viewing them on an HDTV at normal viewing distance.

The decision is really between tape (HV series), hard drive (HG series) or flash memory (HF and HF S series). What you're getting with the more expensive HF S camcorders are certain features such as peaking, color bars, AGC limiter, focus wheel, etc. that aren't available on the other models. The HV series has a focus wheel, but not all of the other extras that the HF S series has.

One point: the HG series can also record to flash memory.

and it is a fabulous camcorder! right now, I am cutting together a shoot with it
and my EX1, and it matches up quite nicely. You will NEED the bigger battery
pack if you go for that one, or any of the smaller cameras, the small one
lasts about 65 minutes.

Thank you Chris and everybody else, as always great information. Still not exactly sure which way to go. Damn decisions.. decisions..
Thanks Again

Chris, not sure if you'll get this again, but if you were to buy one of these three which one would it be. Not that I don't value all recommendations. It was Chris that turned me onto my very first cam and actually my Xl2 as well. Anyway.. Cheers

Darrin

No doubt about it, HF S10 or HF S100, easily. The AGC limiter and the focus / scroller wheel and other unique features are well worth the extra bucks. Skip the onboard flash and get the S100 if you don't want to pay as much, but frankly I like having dual memory; makes it easier to share media with friends.

If I had an XH series or XL H series camera then I'd pick an HV30 or HV40, since they're all tape-based HDV.

Thanks Chris. That's what I was looking for. :)
Cheers
Darrin

and it is a fabulous camcorder! right now, I am cutting together a shoot with it
and my EX1, and it matches up quite nicely. You will NEED the bigger battery
pack if you go for that one, or any of the smaller cameras, the small one
lasts about 65 minutes.

Yeah, that is a pain - with the HV20 (and I'm assuming the HV30,) there are a few "won't blow up on you" third party battery packs for about half the price of the official Canon batteries. With the HG20/HG21/HF10/HF11/HF100 Canon introduced some sort of fancy schmancy something or other - basically, unless you get an official Canon battery:

A) It won't charge up in the camera, you have to buy a third-party charger.
B) It won't even give you a rough estimate as to how much battery power is left, meaning it'll shut off suddenly and without warning when the battery runs out of power. (Most of the third party batteries try to get around this by having a button you can press which lights up a bunch of LED lights)

On the plus side, the "official" Canon batteries will not only give you a battery power estimate but will tell you how much time you have on that battery straight down to the minute. But they're expensive as hell.

There's certain things you should just consider "part of the cost" of the camera. Things like a UV filter, which should remain on at all times to protect the lens, a hood, to prevent against lens flare caused by the UV filter (unless you're like me and think that lens flare actually looks kinda cool.) batteries, tapes (if you get a tape based camera) SD cards (if you don't), tripods, audio equipment...

Hmm... I think I may have solved the mystery of why I never seem to save any money every month.

(I kid, I make extra payments to my student loans instead of having a traditional savings account; when that's paid off in a year, I'll start saving more normally.)

No doubt about it, HF S10 or HF S100, easily.

Very true,
amazing camcorder, you will be downsizing comparing to XL2, but even SD downconverted video from HF S10/100 looks awesome, I'd say it's a GL2 in Canon's HD line, easily beats any camcorder of that size and price.

Very true,
amazing camcorder, you will be downsizing comparing to XL2, but even SD downconverted video from HF S10/100 looks awesome, I'd say it's a GL2 in Canon's HD line, easily beats any camcorder of that size and price.

I thought the HF10/100 does not shoot SD video.

I thought the HF10/100 does not shoot SD video.

It doesn't, but all you have to do is just export to SD resolution to get SD video.

You are correct, none of the Canon AVCHD cameras record standard definition.
He's talking about downconverting to SD later in the post-production process.

My HF S10 delivers better HD material than my HV-30. Very crisp picture plus I can adjust GAIN so that grain is kept to a minimum. I can't tell the difference between the 24 MPS or 17MPS settings. I do downconvert to SD and all I can say is WOW!

See my post: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/avchd-format-discussion/146578-canon-hf-s10-tip-saving.html

Very true,
amazing camcorder, you will be downsizing comparing to XL2, but even SD downconverted video from HF S10/100 looks awesome, I'd say it's a GL2 in Canon's HD line, easily beats any camcorder of that size and price.

We had purchased a Hv30 and was pleased with the picture...it was close to our sony Z1U. We have been intercutting the Z1 U footage with our EX1 so the HV30 was an inexpensive third camera. For reasons unknown, the Hv30 began ejecting tapes when the slightest temperature change occured. We returned it and got a HFS 100, The image quality is very close to the EX1 in outdoor shooting. The file sizes are huge however compared to the EX1 via FCP. It does edit well in FCP with the EX1 footage. So far so good...only complaint is the cost of the Canon WA adapter. I wonder if the old 52 mm screw on adapter from the GL2 would work. Less than half the price.
Best, Craig Hollenback
Key West – Florida Keys - ConchTV - KeysTV (http://www.ConchTV.com)

Im using a XHA1 and HV30.

Im looking at purchasing a HF100, does anyone have this combo?
If so do you have any pros/cons about the HF00 with an XHA1?

I would like to see if tapeless is the way to go. But it still scares me.

Thanks.

Last year, we were able to use an A1, HV-20, HV-30 and the Sony HC3. Here is our impression.

Out of the box, the smaller cameras were easy to use. The colors were vibrant and good without any tweaking. Because you have an A1, I'm sure you already know that to get the best out of the camera, you have to tweak it.

The Sony was warmer. Had better stabilization even if it was electronic and the Canon's were not. The Sony was a tad sharper too. But in good light, all performed very well. The Sony was in there with the Canon's considering that it had only 60i whereas we used 30p for the HV-30 and A1, with 60i for the HV-20. In good light, it's hard to tell the 3 apart. You have to really look hard to see the difference and it's not much. The colors were not muted or lacking even on the single sensors.

Because of this results, I had wanted an HV-30. Unfortunately, or fortunately, BHPhoto had a closing sale on the HF-100's for about U$550 vs the U$600 for the HV-30. It was a tough choice but I went for the tapeless solution. The price of the HF-100 went up to U$550 for some unknown reason so that's what I paid for it.

Between the HV-30 and the HF-100, the HF-100 was sharper. It was very obvious. Color was about the same. Low light goes slightly to the tape camera because the HV-30 was 1/2.7" if I am not mistaken vs the HF-100 w/c was 1/3.2". It was close though. And since I use the HF-100 in 30p, the low light was given more lattitude.

In the end, I am glad I got the HF-100. Tapeless saves me a lot of time in moving the video to the computer. Before a 3-hour video on tape will transfer about 3+ hours. Now, that is about 15-25 min only. I can put that 3 hour video in just one 16gb class 6 SDHC. That is a great convenience! A big help too if you do SDEs.

I just got a used 2nd hf-100 about a week ago. I was about to ask my friend to get me the hf-s100 of last year as it is dropping in price, but a local friend sold me his HF-100 with a modosteady, CP, and wide angle for U$630 and that was good enough for me. I know the hf-s100 is better, but I figure, I'd get two of the hf-100 and go for a canon 550d DSLR if I really want the shallow DOF and better low light.

BTW, I am a semi-pro doing events/wedding videos. This is the reason why I had to get a 2nd videocam or the hf-100. Though the hf-100 is not as current or the best now, it is still very viable. I will be reserving future funds for the next generation videocams and will use these 2 hf-100's and the 550d for our work till the GH2 or some other better models come around.

In summary, these newer cameras are getting better. Of course, you have to re-do your workflow. And with AVCHD, you better have good NLE software and a faster computer (quadcores or i7's). I can vouch for Canon's tapeless solutions. To my eyes they are even in good light, and only the better controls of the more expensive cameras make them better to use. But if you talk of image quality, they are very, very close.