Hv30/HG21/hfs10 at DVinfo.net

Darrin McMillan · March 23rd, 2009, 10:26 AM

I'm in the process of selling my XL2 and looking for something a bit smaller. I think I've narrowed it down to either the HV30, HG21 or the new hfs10. My initial thought is to wait for the new HFs10. I don't mind spending the money, however I would be really be discouraged if I paid double and the quality difference wasn't there. I've seen some samples from the HV30 that have been pretty impressive. I guess my biggest concern is the HDV vs MPEG4-AVC. What will yield the best results, clarity, lack of noise, color production? I understand that the HFS10 has way higher resolution, but how is that affected by compression. Maybe they have made leaps and bounds in compression, but I'm kinda old school and where I come from compression is not a good thing... Any ideas or advice would be great. I really like Canon, but how would these compare to the sony hdsr12?

Chris Hurd · March 23rd, 2009, 10:34 AM

The difference between the HDV and AVCHD formats is not in image "quality" so much as recording options and workflow. Compression is pretty much a non-issue these days... *all* digital video is compressed. It's just a question of how efficient the compression is. The AVCHD codec is about twice as efficient in encoding as HDV. Regardless, I would say that you probably won't be able to detect any difference in image quality between any of these camcorders, HDV or AVCHD, when viewing them on an HDTV at normal viewing distance.

The decision is really between tape (HV series), hard drive (HG series) or flash memory (HF and HF S series). What you're getting with the more expensive HF S camcorders are certain features such as peaking, color bars, AGC limiter, focus wheel, etc. that aren't available on the other models. The HV series has a focus wheel, but not all of the other extras that the HF S series has.

Brian Boyko · March 23rd, 2009, 10:44 AM

One point: the HG series can also record to flash memory.

Scott Hayes · March 23rd, 2009, 10:58 AM

and it is a fabulous camcorder! right now, I am cutting together a shoot with it
and my EX1, and it matches up quite nicely. You will NEED the bigger battery
pack if you go for that one, or any of the smaller cameras, the small one
lasts about 65 minutes.

Darrin McMillan · March 23rd, 2009, 12:30 PM

Thank you Chris and everybody else, as always great information. Still not exactly sure which way to go. Damn decisions.. decisions..
Thanks Again

Darrin McMillan · March 23rd, 2009, 12:36 PM

Chris, not sure if you'll get this again, but if you were to buy one of these three which one would it be. Not that I don't value all recommendations. It was Chris that turned me onto my very first cam and actually my Xl2 as well. Anyway.. Cheers

Darrin

Chris Hurd · March 23rd, 2009, 12:53 PM

No doubt about it, HF S10 or HF S100, easily. The AGC limiter and the focus / scroller wheel and other unique features are well worth the extra bucks. Skip the onboard flash and get the S100 if you don't want to pay as much, but frankly I like having dual memory; makes it easier to share media with friends.

If I had an XH series or XL H series camera then I'd pick an HV30 or HV40, since they're all tape-based HDV.

Darrin McMillan · March 23rd, 2009, 01:54 PM

Thanks Chris. That's what I was looking for. :)
Cheers
Darrin

Brian Boyko · March 24th, 2009, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hayes

and it is a fabulous camcorder! right now, I am cutting together a shoot with it
and my EX1, and it matches up quite nicely. You will NEED the bigger battery
pack if you go for that one, or any of the smaller cameras, the small one
lasts about 65 minutes.

Yeah, that is a pain - with the HV20 (and I'm assuming the HV30,) there are a few "won't blow up on you" third party battery packs for about half the price of the official Canon batteries. With the HG20/HG21/HF10/HF11/HF100 Canon introduced some sort of fancy schmancy something or other - basically, unless you get an official Canon battery:

A) It won't charge up in the camera, you have to buy a third-party charger.
B) It won't even give you a rough estimate as to how much battery power is left, meaning it'll shut off suddenly and without warning when the battery runs out of power. (Most of the third party batteries try to get around this by having a button you can press which lights up a bunch of LED lights)

On the plus side, the "official" Canon batteries will not only give you a battery power estimate but will tell you how much time you have on that battery straight down to the minute. But they're expensive as hell.

There's certain things you should just consider "part of the cost" of the camera. Things like a UV filter, which should remain on at all times to protect the lens, a hood, to prevent against lens flare caused by the UV filter (unless you're like me and think that lens flare actually looks kinda cool.) batteries, tapes (if you get a tape based camera) SD cards (if you don't), tripods, audio equipment...

Hmm... I think I may have solved the mystery of why I never seem to save any money every month.

(I kid, I make extra payments to my student loans instead of having a traditional savings account; when that's paid off in a year, I'll start saving more normally.)

Buba Kastorski · March 27th, 2009, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

No doubt about it, HF S10 or HF S100, easily.

Very true,
amazing camcorder, you will be downsizing comparing to XL2, but even SD downconverted video from HF S10/100 looks awesome, I'd say it's a GL2 in Canon's HD line, easily beats any camcorder of that size and price.

Herm Stork · March 27th, 2009, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buba Kastorski

Very true,
amazing camcorder, you will be downsizing comparing to XL2, but even SD downconverted video from HF S10/100 looks awesome, I'd say it's a GL2 in Canon's HD line, easily beats any camcorder of that size and price.

I thought the HF10/100 does not shoot SD video.

Brian Boyko · March 27th, 2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herm Stork

I thought the HF10/100 does not shoot SD video.

It doesn't, but all you have to do is just export to SD resolution to get SD video.

Chris Hurd · March 27th, 2009, 05:09 PM

You are correct, none of the Canon AVCHD cameras record standard definition.
He's talking about downconverting to SD later in the post-production process.

Lou Bruno · March 27th, 2009, 07:50 PM

My HF S10 delivers better HD material than my HV-30. Very crisp picture plus I can adjust GAIN so that grain is kept to a minimum. I can't tell the difference between the 24 MPS or 17MPS settings. I do downconvert to SD and all I can say is WOW!

See my post: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/avchd-for...ip-saving.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buba Kastorski

Very true,
amazing camcorder, you will be downsizing comparing to XL2, but even SD downconverted video from HF S10/100 looks awesome, I'd say it's a GL2 in Canon's HD line, easily beats any camcorder of that size and price.

Craig Hollenback · April 19th, 2009, 07:14 PM

We had purchased a Hv30 and was pleased with the picture...it was close to our sony Z1U. We have been intercutting the Z1 U footage with our EX1 so the HV30 was an inexpensive third camera. For reasons unknown, the Hv30 began ejecting tapes when the slightest temperature change occured. We returned it and got a HFS 100, The image quality is very close to the EX1 in outdoor shooting. The file sizes are huge however compared to the EX1 via FCP. It does edit well in FCP with the EX1 footage. So far so good...only complaint is the cost of the Canon WA adapter. I wonder if the old 52 mm screw on adapter from the GL2 would work. Less than half the price.
Best, Craig Hollenback
Key West – Florida Keys - ConchTV - KeysTV

March 23rd, 2009, 10:26 AM	#1
Darrin McMillan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Kingston, Ontario Posts: 96	Hv30/HG21/hfs10 I'm in the process of selling my XL2 and looking for something a bit smaller. I think I've narrowed it down to either the HV30, HG21 or the new hfs10. My initial thought is to wait for the new HFs10. I don't mind spending the money, however I would be really be discouraged if I paid double and the quality difference wasn't there. I've seen some samples from the HV30 that have been pretty impressive. I guess my biggest concern is the HDV vs MPEG4-AVC. What will yield the best results, clarity, lack of noise, color production? I understand that the HFS10 has way higher resolution, but how is that affected by compression. Maybe they have made leaps and bounds in compression, but I'm kinda old school and where I come from compression is not a good thing... Any ideas or advice would be great. I really like Canon, but how would these compare to the sony hdsr12?

March 23rd, 2009, 10:34 AM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	The difference between the HDV and AVCHD formats is not in image "quality" so much as recording options and workflow. Compression is pretty much a non-issue these days... all digital video is compressed. It's just a question of how efficient the compression is. The AVCHD codec is about twice as efficient in encoding as HDV. Regardless, I would say that you probably won't be able to detect any difference in image quality between any of these camcorders, HDV or AVCHD, when viewing them on an HDTV at normal viewing distance. The decision is really between tape (HV series), hard drive (HG series) or flash memory (HF and HF S series). What you're getting with the more expensive HF S camcorders are certain features such as peaking, color bars, AGC limiter, focus wheel, etc. that aren't available on the other models. The HV series has a focus wheel, but not all of the other extras that the HF S series has. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 23rd, 2009, 10:44 AM	#3
Brian Boyko Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 773	One point: the HG series can also record to flash memory. __________________ Equip: Panny GH1, Canon HG20, Juicedlink, AT897, Sennh. EW/GW100, Zoom H2, Vegas 8.1

March 23rd, 2009, 10:58 AM	#4
Scott Hayes Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 692	i have an HG21 and it is a fabulous camcorder! right now, I am cutting together a shoot with it and my EX1, and it matches up quite nicely. You will NEED the bigger battery pack if you go for that one, or any of the smaller cameras, the small one lasts about 65 minutes.

March 23rd, 2009, 12:30 PM	#5
Darrin McMillan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Kingston, Ontario Posts: 96	Thank you so much Thank you Chris and everybody else, as always great information. Still not exactly sure which way to go. Damn decisions.. decisions.. Thanks Again

March 23rd, 2009, 12:36 PM	#6
Darrin McMillan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Kingston, Ontario Posts: 96	Purchase Chris, not sure if you'll get this again, but if you were to buy one of these three which one would it be. Not that I don't value all recommendations. It was Chris that turned me onto my very first cam and actually my Xl2 as well. Anyway.. Cheers Darrin

March 23rd, 2009, 12:53 PM	#7
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	No doubt about it, HF S10 or HF S100, easily. The AGC limiter and the focus / scroller wheel and other unique features are well worth the extra bucks. Skip the onboard flash and get the S100 if you don't want to pay as much, but frankly I like having dual memory; makes it easier to share media with friends. If I had an XH series or XL H series camera then I'd pick an HV30 or HV40, since they're all tape-based HDV. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 23rd, 2009, 01:54 PM	#8
Darrin McMillan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Kingston, Ontario Posts: 96	Thanks again Thanks Chris. That's what I was looking for. :) Cheers Darrin

March 27th, 2009, 05:09 PM	#13
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	You are correct, none of the Canon AVCHD cameras record standard definition. He's talking about downconverting to SD later in the post-production process. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

April 19th, 2009, 07:14 PM	#15
Craig Hollenback Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Key West Posts: 247	HFS 100 and EX1 We had purchased a Hv30 and was pleased with the picture...it was close to our sony Z1U. We have been intercutting the Z1 U footage with our EX1 so the HV30 was an inexpensive third camera. For reasons unknown, the Hv30 began ejecting tapes when the slightest temperature change occured. We returned it and got a HFS 100, The image quality is very close to the EX1 in outdoor shooting. The file sizes are huge however compared to the EX1 via FCP. It does edit well in FCP with the EX1 footage. So far so good...only complaint is the cost of the Canon WA adapter. I wonder if the old 52 mm screw on adapter from the GL2 would work. Less than half the price. Best, Craig Hollenback Key West – Florida Keys - ConchTV - KeysTV