[QUOTE=Perrone Ford;1263561]It's so hard talking someone through this workflow when they don't have a firm grip on some general things.[QUOTE]

My apologies. I always had the DVD app split the two in the burner app. My bad. I'd figured it out after i posted that.....

I'll sign outta here and give you all some peace.

Thanks

No biggie man. That's why we're here. From what I've seen, people have gotten a LOT out of this thread, so you're helping a bunch of people along...

...
When you create DVDs, the video portion and the audio portion are compressed separately. So you compress the video in Vegas to Mpeg2. Then you compress the audio separately with the Dolby Digitial AC-3 Studio Template. Name this the same thing as you named the video file, and when you are in DVDA and drop the video file on the timeline, the audio will come with it automatically.


Perrone:

I can't believe a fanatic for quality like you would use the AC-3 studio template in Vegas. It's a recipe for normalized, low dynamic range, compressed audio.

If you have to have a low bandwidth 5.1 track, it's your only only Vegas option though.

I would stick a LPCM track on the disc also as an option if you are using AC-3 and you have the spare disk room. Let the end user decide which audio track to use.

[QUOTE=Harry Simpson;1264577][QUOTE=Perrone Ford;1263561]It's so hard talking someone through this workflow when they don't have a firm grip on some general things.

No biggie man. That's why we're here. From what I've seen, people have gotten a LOT out of this thread, so you're helping a bunch of people along...

Yeah, don't sweat it Harry. This thread started 12 days ago and has nearly 2,800 views. There are a lot of people benefitting from the thread. I know I certainly have.

Again, thanks to Perrone for his patience in helping many of us through the process.

And the info will be here over time for others to benefit from it. Even with help, it's still very much a trial and error process.

Perrone:

I can't believe a fanatic for quality like you would use the AC-3 studio template in Vegas. It's a recipe for normalized, low dynamic range, compressed audio.

If you have to have a low bandwidth 5.1 track, it's your only only Vegas option though.

My bread and butter at the office is spoken word, long form conferences. I just don't need anything else. If I am doing narrative work then I make different choices.

Still don't have an answer to what to do with progressive footage shot at 1080/30p from an EX1.

1. Render out an intermediate avi lossless file at 1920 x 1080 using which template for the Lagarith or Huffy UV?

2. Resize in VD at 720 x 405?? or change to 480? Use a lossless codec. Interlaced?? Where is Progressive in VD? What do I do with progressive footage in VD?

3. Load resized avi into vegas and render to an Mpeg 2 for DVDA as what? Interlaced, Progressive?

4. Field order problems?

John

Still don't have an answer to what to do with progressive footage shot at 1080/30p from an EX1.
John

Slightly OT - but applies

John:

I have been shooting mostly in 1920X1080P30. It does seem to make as good of SD widescreen as any other format when you figure out your workflow. I still go with a single NLE render (Vegas) and keep it simple.

What I am wondering is if we shouldn't all just start shooting the dreaded interlaced (1920X1080i60) if we are not shooting 24P? 24P is the only native HD and SD progressive format.

We are all rendering back to interlaced anyway, and Blu-Ray does not even support 30P so you have to render to 60i interlaced for that too. I am starting to wonder what the purpose of 30P is since there is no native 30P playback.

Still don't have an answer to what to do with progressive footage shot at 1080/30p from an EX1.


What do you mean? What you "do with it" is totally dependent on how you will deliver. Web, DVD, BluRay... all demand something different.


1. Render out an intermediate avi lossless file at 1920 x 1080 using which template for the Lagarith or Huffy UV?


Make a template. 1080p, PCM 16bit/48khz audio (or whatever your camera shot) Huffyuv or Lagarith codec. Done. Simple.


2. Resize in VD at 720 x 405?? or change to 480? Use a lossless codec. Interlaced?? Where is Progressive in VD? What do I do with progressive footage in VD?


720x405. Interlaced? Why? You shot progressive. Let it stay progressive. VD is expecting progressive and likes it. Leave it alone.


3. Load resized avi into vegas and render to an Mpeg 2 for DVDA as what? Interlaced, Progressive?


NTSC 60i Widescreen. It's a pre-built template. Use it.



4. Field order problems?


None if you keep everything progressive until you build the mpeg2 for the DVD. Don't over complicate things.

Set your template in DVDA to NTSC widescreen 720x480 and you're golden.

I just did this workflow on my editing machine as a test. Rendered a one second 1080/30p with Lagarith from Vegas, all the way through DVDA. Works fine.

What I am wondering is if we shouldn't all just start shooting the dreaded interlaced (1920X1080i60) if we are not shooting 24P?


Good gracious why? If you plan to deliver for broadcast (over the air or on optical) then yes, shoot 24p or 60i. Otherwise, shoot what you want.



We are all rendering back to interlaced anyway


No, we are not all rendering back to interlaced.


I am starting to wonder what the purpose of 30P is since there is no native 30P playback.

I don't typically shoot 30p, but if I have significant motion, and I am delivering for non-broadcast, then 30p becomes viable. I typically shoot 24p or 60p though.

Jeff, arbitrarily converting to or from interlaced to progressive is a "nasty" thing to do. The temporal shift with interlaced fields is a problem when converting to progressive from interlaced or vice versa. With 60i versus 30P, the time between interlaced fields causes a blurring of edges if there is any motion in the video when converting from 60i to 30P because each field was recorded at a different moment in time. The blurring is because when the fields are converted to progressive. the interlaced fields are forced to be displayed at the same time even thought one of the source fields was not shot at the same moment in time as the other field. As a result, moving subjects are not at the same place in each field. To force each field to be displayed at the same moment in time makes them blurry on the edges when there is motion.

There are reasons that it may be appropriate to convert from interlaced to progressive such as preparing a video for display on a computer screen or online. But "improving" the quality of the video is NOT one of the reasons to convert - - most especially if the video is to be played on an interlaced TV. There are bad ways and fair ways to convert from interlaced to progressive; there aren't any "good" ways. The bad way just combines the fields and does nothing to reduce the motion edge blur. The fair way to do something, such as throwing away one of the fields and doubling the other to preserve the aspect ratio, cuts the vertical resolution in half but with this approach there is no edge blurring when there is motion. The loss of vertical resolution might not be important when the end format doesn't need the resolution such as web page videos. Just keep in mind that your vertical resolution is cut in half with this method.

When 30P is displayed on an interlaced TV screen, there is noticeable judder when there in motion. I personally don't care for the judder look. Others like it because they think it is more "film-like". But to me it is distracting to see a video with blurry edges that judders. Why not also put projector noise on the audio track and call it film-like audio!?

We are all rendering back to interlaced anyway, and Blu-Ray does not even support 30P so you have to render to 60i interlaced for that too. I am starting to wonder what the purpose of 30P is since there is no native 30P playback.
For the look of 30p, that's why.

If you shoot it 30p and have to put it to Blu-ray as 60i, that's not changing the fact that it was shot 30p and will have the look of 30p.

And yes, without question it will look better on a LCD instead of a CRT, and that's the way the world is going anyway.

I don't like the judder of 24p for what I do, but 30p, that I do like. It's all a matter of your own style that you want for your video.

What do you mean? What you "do with it" is totally dependent on how you will deliver. Web, DVD, BluRay... all demand something different.

SD DVD that looks good on a CRT television as well as an HDTV. That is where I am having all the problems. HDTV video looks good. CRT always looks bad with ghostly outlines on people and objects and aliasing especially when anything moves. Twitter is worse than footage shot on an SD cam.

Make a template. 1080p, PCM 16bit/48khz audio (or whatever your camera shot) Huffyuv or Lagarith codec. Done. Simple.

OK - got it.

720x405. Interlaced? Why? You shot progressive. Let it stay progressive. VD is expecting progressive and likes it. Leave it alone.

Didn't know that.

In terms of 405, it defaults to 405 and not 480. Some here are rendering to that. Are you are saying I should change it to 480 or leave it at 405?



NTSC 60i Widescreen. It's a pre-built template. Use it.
None if you keep everything progressive until you build the mpeg2 for the DVD. Don't over complicate things.

Set your template in DVDA to NTSC widescreen 720x480 and you're golden.

I just did this workflow on my editing machine as a test. Rendered a one second 1080/30p with Lagarith from Vegas, all the way through DVDA. Works fine.

On a CRT TV? Maybe there is something wrong with my camera.

John

SD DVD that looks good on a CRT television as well as an HDTV. That is where I am having all the problems. HDTV video looks good. CRT always looks bad with ghostly outlines on people and objects and aliasing especially when anything moves. Twitter is worse than footage shot on an SD cam.


I think the issue lies in your camera setup, not your workflow.


In terms of 405, it defaults to 405 and not 480. Some here are rendering to that. Are you are saying I should change it to 480 or leave it at 405?


Leave it at 405. It will letterbox itself when it gets rendered to Mpeg2.



On a CRT TV? Maybe there is something wrong with my camera.


I have a CRT TV in my editing suite. I hve a CRT TV at home. I have to drop stuff on my laptop and take it to my preview room to see it on a plasma or LCD. I think the issue you are having is you are using detail enhancement in the camera. Grab one of the excellent camera setups from the sticky section in the EX1 section on this webpage. That should fix it.

I think the issue lies in your camera setup, not your workflow.



Leave it at 405. It will letterbox itself when it gets rendered to Mpeg2.




I have a CRT TV in my editing suite. I hve a CRT TV at home. I have to drop stuff on my laptop and take it to my preview room to see it on a plasma or LCD. I think the issue you are having is you are using detail enhancement in the camera. Grab one of the excellent camera setups from the sticky section in the EX1 section on this webpage. That should fix it.

Thanks for the help Perrone. Really appreciate it.

John

Perrone (or anyone else who would help me).

Here is a sample of an SD Mpeg clip for DVDA that was progressive all the way through. It will not display properly on a CRT without motion aliasing. The colored outline on the edges is visible as well. This was done as follows:

1. Load EX1 footage (1920 x 1080p/30) as mxf onto Vegas timeline. Match project properties to mxf files.
2. Render out Huffy UV to avi file.
3. Resize in VD using Lanczos 3 resize filter and Huffy UV compression to 720 x 405 progressive.
4. Bring avi back into Vegas and render as DVDA video stream (NOTE: Problems showed up on JVC CRT pro external monitor before I even rendered).

I tried disabling smart resampling as well.

http://vimeo.com/download/video:5644973?v=2&e=1251313386&h=3193bab710ac0a25f93f0fc89af0cffb&uh=d0dd8d4b0f3c8d6d82933d2c00e25490

Vimeo said the download is available for a week.

There is no audio. Can someone burn this on a DVDRW with DVDA and try playing it on a CRT?

Thanks to anyone who can help me with this major problem.

Perrone (or anyone else who would help me).

Here is a sample of an SD Mpeg clip for DVDA that was progressive all the way through. It will not display properly on a CRT without motion aliasing. The colored outline on the edges is visible as well. This was done as follows:

http://vimeo.com/download/video:5644973?v=2&e=1251313386&h=3193bab710ac0a25f93f0fc89af0cffb&uh=d0dd8d4b0f3c8d6d82933d2c00e25490


It's private and says we can't download it.

It's private and says we can't download it.

Do you have to sign in first? Not sure. Is there another place I can put the file that you know of?

John

Do you have to sign in first? Not sure. Is there another place I can put the file that you know of?

John

I am signed in. Send me a link to just your profile on vimeo, and I'll download the file.

I am signed in. Send me a link to just your profile on vimeo, and I'll download the file.

http://vimeo.com/6283645


I think this does it?

Log in and the download link is on the bottom right hand side of the page.

John

I had to change the privacy settings for some reason.

Yea, I got it...

In camera sharpening is BRUTAL. You have GOT to turn that off. Otherwise there just isn't anything to be done in post short of a gaussian blur on the whole thing.

Use this setting:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/976293-post389.html

Except change Detail Setting from 0 to -20. That should solve what you're seeing here.

Yea, I got it...

In camera sharpening is BRUTAL. You have GOT to turn that off. Otherwise there just isn't anything to be done in post short of a gaussian blur on the whole thing.

I added unsharp mask (medium strength) to the final output and I don't remember any in camera sharpening being set, but why all the aliasing if it is progressive all the way? There are pronounced horizontal interlacing lines on the video when displayed on a CRT.

John

I just checked. Picture profiles have been off since I bought the camera over a year ago. Doesn't that mean there is no "detail on"? Isn't that where the in camera sharpening would come from if it were turned on?

I will try those settings though. I guess the default settings for the camera produce this problem? Is that right? You must have a picture profile set in order to avoid aliasing in SD DVD even if it is progressive?

I added unsharp mask (medium strength) to the final output and I don't remember any in camera sharpening being set, but why all the aliasing if it is progressive all the way? There are pronounced horizontal interlacing lines on the video when displayed on a CRT.

John

I just checked. Picture profiles have been off since I bought the camera over a year ago. Doesn't that mean there is no "detail on"? Isn't that where the in camera sharpening would come from if it were turned on?

I will try those settings though. I guess the default settings for the camera produce this problem? Is that right? You must have a picture profile set in order to avoid aliasing in SD DVD even if it is progressive?

I don't know how you monitor, but I am not seeing what you're seeing. The only "faults" I can see is that the shutter speed used is maybe a bit slow, and there is way too much sharpening. Other than that, the video looks fine to me.

Is there any way you can get the original file to me somehow? Or just a second's worth of it?

-P

You must have a picture profile set in order to avoid aliasing in SD DVD even if it is progressive?

Let me go try something...

Ok,

So I grabbed the camera, went around my building and shot a couple 1080/30p clips with the picture profile turned off.

SD Version here: http://www.vimeo.com/6287337

HD Version here: Alias_Twitter Test HD version on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/6287299)

Download those and tell me what you see.

Ok,

So I grabbed the camera, went around my building and shot a couple 1080/30p clips with the picture profile turned off.

SD Version here: Alias_Twitter Test SD Version on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/6287337)

HD Version here: Alias_Twitter Test HD version on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/6287299)

Download those and tell me what you see.

For both the SD and HD versions I downloaded the files and loaded them separately into Vegas projects. I matched project properties to the files themselves and changed the default deinterlace method to NONE.

I rendered each of the files to the default DVDA Mpeg2 widescreen video stream template at a CBR of 8000, DC Coefficient 10-Bit, Video Quality - 31,

Brought each into DVDA using a single movie Mpeg-2 720x480-60i, 16:9 (NTSC) template.
Burned each to a DVD and played it through a standard DVD player to a 27 inch CRT television.

Both exhibited severe aliasing with horizontal motion on all objects (especially vertical objects). Twitter was present. I didn't notice the chromatic ghosting I get though, but I think that is part of the aliasing problem.

I tried them on a Plasma TV and the aliasing was gone - replaced by "blurred" edges in the same places where there were aliased edges on the CRT TV.

Thanks for the help Perrone. I e-mailed you regarding sending you an mxf clip.

Can you monitor to that CRT without burning a DVD? I am curious at this point if you are having issues with the mpeg2 burn process or if the trouble is present BEFORE that compression is done.

Have you looked at these on more than one CRT?

I rendered each of the files to the default DVDA Mpeg2 widescreen video stream template at a CBR of 8000, DC Coefficient 10-Bit, Video Quality - 31,



John:

A direct cosine (DC) coefficient of 10 bit is not usually good. If it had any effect at all, it would exacerbate your exact problem. The DC coefficient only affects adjacent transitional macro block areas with a value greater than zero. 95% of macro blocks have a value of zero. The "Handbook of Image and Video Processing" is an excellent reference for figuring out how to set up the detailed rendering properties.

The only easy explanation I ever found was here:
Subdivision Into Macro Blocks - Review Tom's Hardware : Video Guide Part 3: Video Formats and Compression Methods (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/video-guide-part-3,130-7.html)

Can you monitor to that CRT without burning a DVD? I am curious at this point if you are having issues with the mpeg2 burn process or if the trouble is present BEFORE that compression is done.

Have you looked at these on more than one CRT?

I can also see it on the external CRT monitor if I play those clips directly from the timeline. I have to look closely because it is only a 15 inch 4:3 monitor with an Aspect Ratio switch so it is pretty small and the scene moves really fast. Looks like a blurred edge if you don't study it very well,but it is in fact horizontal aliasing.

http://www.ggvideo.com/jvc_tmh150cgu.php

As far as another CRT TV, yes it shows up on all of them (via the DVDs). ith the DVDds I can slow-mo the video to see the horizontal aliasing better.

Are you saying that you don't see what I described on your JVC CRT monitor or on your CRT TV with those same files you gave me?

John

Are you saying that you don't see what I described on your JVC CRT monitor or on your CRT TV with those same files you gave me?

John

All I am saying, is that other than the "sharpness" that appears added, I can't see anything on these that I don't see on other DVDs that have been creatd in-house or from other pro sources. BUT, I am not making mpeg2 files. I am just dropping them onto my timeline.

CRTs and Plasma/LCD do not render things the same way. They are progressive by nature. The CRT is going to interlace the footage whether we want it to or not because that is it's nature.

So I really can't say if what youa re seeing is expected and normal, or if it's something else. I suspect that because your issues disappear when you view on a plasma/lcd, that what you are seeing is pretty normal.

I can also see it on the external CRT monitor if I play those clips directly from the timeline. I have to look closely because it is only a 15 inch 4:3 monitor with an Aspect Ratio switch so it is pretty small and the scene moves really fast. Looks like a blurred edge if you don't study it very well,but it is in fact horizontal aliasing.

JVC TM-H150CGU 15-Inch High Resolution Color Monitor (http://www.ggvideo.com/jvc_tmh150cgu.php)

This is what I have:
JVC TM-H1900GU 19-Inch Color Monitor (http://www.ggvideo.com/jvc_tmh1900gu.php) (but in 17") Just checked.

Regardless, I may be seeing what you are, but just not as sensitive. How far from the TV are you when viewing this stuff?

This is what I have:
JVC TM-H1900GU 19-Inch Color Monitor (http://www.ggvideo.com/jvc_tmh1900gu.php) (but in 17") Just checked.

Regardless, I may be seeing what you are, but just not as sensitive. How far from the TV are you when viewing this stuff?

Four feet from the TV. The editing monitor is right next to me of course.

I guess I am being too fussy, but I am directly comparing it to the SD DVDs I was producing with my VX2000.

I would really like to be certain that there isn't something wrong with the camera itself as I have a three year extended warranty and it has never been in for service since I bought it in June 2008. It hasn't had that much use though.

If you could look at the two .mxf clips that I sent you whenever you have the time (that I created from the original BPAV folders) this videographer would be truly grateful. Let me know if there appears to be something wrong with the camera. They are 1080/30p with ATW and no profiles. Pretty much all default except for the progressive mode.

John

I looked at the first one. I am going to look at the second one here in a minute. Got an emergency 3 DVD copy job handed to me at 4:15!!! GRrrrr!

John:

A direct cosine (DC) coefficient of 10 bit is not usually good. If it had any effect at all, it would exacerbate your exact problem. The DC coefficient only affects adjacent transitional macro block areas with a value greater than zero. 95% of macro blocks have a value of zero. The "Handbook of Image and Video Processing" is an excellent reference for figuring out how to set up the detailed rendering properties.

The only easy explanation I ever found was here:
Subdivision Into Macro Blocks - Review Tom's Hardware : Video Guide Part 3: Video Formats and Compression Methods (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/video-guide-part-3,130-7.html)

Thanks Jeff,

I'll change it back to the default value of 9-bit.

John

Are you saying that you don't see what I described on your JVC CRT monitor or on your CRT TV with those same files you gave me?

Second clip, telephone lines... twitter galore. Aliasing on the telephone pole.

So, I added just a touch of gaussian blur and the twitter stopped and the pole cleaned up a bit. If this MXF is straight out of the camera, then you've got the detail settings in that thing JACKED up.

Do you have access to the camera right now?

Second clip, telephone lines... twitter galore. Aliasing on the telephone pole.

So, I added just a touch of gaussian blur and the twitter stopped and the pole cleaned up a bit. If this MXF is straight out of the camera, then you've got the detail settings in that thing JACKED up.

Do you have access to the camera right now?

Yes, I do.

Thanks,
John

Ok, go make a picture profile like the one I linked you too. I have a bunch in my camera but the one I pointed you too should be a great place to start, and should prevent what you are seeing in this footage. Your camera is not broken, it just has the default settings which really aren't that great.

Ok, go make a picture profile like the one I linked you too. I have a bunch in my camera but the one I pointed you too should be a great place to start, and should prevent what you are seeing in this footage. Your camera is not broken, it just has the default settings which really aren't that great.

I set that one up yesterday Perrone.

I just switched to it. The white walls in this room look amber.

John

I set that one up yesterday Perrone.

I just switched to it. The white walls in this room look amber.

John

Did you do a white balance?

Did you do a white balance?

You posted before I did. I fixed it. I had it on PRST which is 5600K according to the PP.

So I guess I shoot some stuff tomorrow and post back?

John

You posted before I did. I fixed it. I had it on PRST which is 5600K according to the PP.

So I guess I shoot some stuff tomorrow and post back?

John

Yep. And put a clip up like you did today, and I'll take a look at it.

Yep. And put a clip up like you did today, and I'll take a look at it.

I can't thank you enough.
Regards,

John

Perrone,

I'm working on a project that was shot in 720 60p and will be delivered on standard DVD.
I'm going to assume that the work-flow you've described should also work well for me, correct?

Bob

Perrone,

I'm working on a project that was shot in 720 60p and will be delivered on standard DVD.
I'm going to assume that the work-flow you've described should also work well for me, correct?

Bob

Yes, should work fine. Not sure what the temporal movement is going to look like going from 60p to 60i though so report back! :)

It is usually a good idea to sharpen to reduce the softening that occurs when resizing from HD to SD. Does it matter if the sharpening is done before or after the resizing? In a similar vein, I use TMPGEnc to resize and sharpen in one operation. (I load Cineform HD into TMPFEnc and output resized SD MPEG) If it should be resized before it is sharpened, is TMPGEnc smart enough to do it in the right order?

It is usually a good idea to sharpen to reduce the softening that occurs when resizing from HD to SD. Does it matter if the sharpening is done before or after the resizing? In a similar vein, I use TMPGEnc to resize and sharpen in one operation. (I load Cineform HD into TMPFEnc and output resized SD MPEG) If it should be resized before it is sharpened, is TMPGEnc smart enough to do it in the right order?

I believe it is best to sharpen after resize from what I was told more than once.

John

Can someone please explain this workflow, if I don't have Cineform. I've downloaded TMPEG ENC 2.524 and Virtual Dub I was going to download AviSynth, but I am not sure how it functions. I currently have a edited project that has hd and sd clips on my timeline. The final input is for SD DVD. I rendered the project to .avi using NTSC Widescreen format. Was this the proper step? I need help. Also, it appears that TMPEG is used to convert the footage to Mpeg-2. How is this more effective them converting the footage in Vegas? Please describe the process/purpose of each step/progam in each step in the process. Thank you.

Hi Everyone,
I just want to thank Perrone Ford for sharing this information with us.
It's opened my eyes to experimenting to improve the HDV to SD/DVD (and
maybe BR/MPG4) output.

I've only been playing with a 120s clip of a Christmas tree zooming/panning.
Besides improving the sharpness there seems to be better contrast, and
when played I don't think I see as much blocking/creeping of dim colors during
pans. I noticed this on the walls besides the tree which were illuminated mostly
by the tree lights. Before the HDV->720x480 always seemed to have creeping
(not sure of the right term) wall colors. Now it seems much more consistent,
much less distracting, your eye stays on the tree being panned and is not
pulled away by seeming movement the wall.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed. It took several readings of
these 10 pages, and most of a day without other pressing needs to work
out was explained and examine the results along the way.

thanks
jim cowan
Pointe Vicente Recording and Post
l

Jim, You might be able to take your video quality up yet another notch by using Cineform as an intermediate editing format. It is a much more appropriate editing codec. IMHO any form of MPEG (or AVCHD) doesn't belong on the NLE timeline because of the block compression method that is used. There is a lot of technical information on their web site that explains the issues involved. http://cineform.com

While i still am using Cineform NeoScene I think it was Perrone saying it was lossy - is this a big penalty in using it?

It is VERY close to lossless. Completely lossless video results in enormous file sizes that are unwieldy.

Agreeing with Jim about Cineform; their marketing-speak is that it is "visually lossless", which I think is by and large true for everything shot with a camera.

If I remember correctly from previous posts, Perrone does some work with animation, in which he has found he must use a truely lossless codec to maintain the original quality.

With content shot with a camera, you have to go down many generations of Cineform before seeing degradation, although it is a "lossy" codec, by definition.

However, only you can decide how good is good enough for your projects. There's always one more step that will increase quality, at some increase in time and/or money .