Hello,

I need to purchase a wireless lavalier mic and I have heard good reviews about either the Sony one (UWP-C1) and the Sennheiser Evolution G2 wireless series.

Can anyone recommend which is better. I dont' like the fact that the Sennheiser is non-diversity but I'm not sure about the quality of the Sony UWP.

Can I change the built-in mic of the Sony UWP for another one, let's say ECM-77 for example ?

What do you think is better? Sony UWP-C1 + ECM-77 or Sennheiser Evolution G2 + MKE2 lavalier mic ?

The wireless mics are for wedding video purpouses.

Thanks for your help.

Please, I have to make a decision. Which one wireless system would you go for a price range of $500-$700.

Thanks.

Robert... that's a tough call. Previously I would have said to go with the Sennheiser absolutely 100%.

Recently I heard an online test where a guy had both a Sennheiser and a Sony in his house and the Sony sounded a lot better.

The new G2 looks pretty nice, and other then a very few comments online I know nothing about the Sony.

Since you're already having a tough time deciding I hate to do this to you... but I'd probably go with the Audio Technica over either of those choices. It's $499.

Click HERE to see the Audio Technica wireless set. (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=177185&is=REG)

And see if they can work a deal for you with the upgraded mic. The At-899 is already highly regarded as a really good sounding lav. Even at full price it's only $139.

Click HERE to see the At-899 lav. (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=266171&is=REG)

Be sure to check the frequencies for your area! You don't want to get a system with a frequency block that's shared by some local TV stations! The odds of that ever being a problem in Spain are pretty low... but I would still try to be sure about it before laying my cash down.

Also just so you know... I've had experience with the AT system I'm recommending and I was very impressed with it. My own wireless sets are both Lectrosonics... so that's saying something.

Damn. This choice just keeps getting harder and harder. Matt, I'm aware of that audio test you're referring to, and I just can't accept it as the final word on the matter. The person who did it seemed very thorough and knowledgeable, and I don't doubt his results were on the level. He obviously tried very hard to make it a fair test. But the clips he posted from the Sennheiser weren't just kind of iffy -- they were completely unuseable. Might he have been running into problems that won't necessarily be encountered by the typical user? Maybe there was interference specific to his area or something. I don't claim to know much about it (in fact, I don't know anything about wireless systems). I just don't think that Sennheiser would market a product that defective, or that it would become so highly regarded by so many people. If the results were really that consistently bad, no professional would use the Evolution series in any capacity, and yet a lot of people seem to.

I like the looks of the AudioTechnica (the Sony strikes me as just a little too far on the consumer side of things), but one thing I really liked about the Sennheiser was the ability to accept a line input. Looking at the specs for the AudioTechnica, that doesn't seem to be possible with this system. Am I correct? I would like to use a wireless rig in combo with a SoundDevices MM1. The input on the AudioTechnica is listed as TB5M. Is that a proprietary connector or something?

Yeah I found that Sennheiser test hard to believe also. There HAD to be some other issue going.

I've personally used the AT and it worked really well, but in fairness it didn't have to go more then 40' or so. The actual sound quality was really good and the diversity was instantaneous... so my feelings about it were all good. If I had to buy a new wireless system right now that would be the one I'd get. Perhaps it's splitting hairs and all of 'em in this range are good... I just don't have enough experience with a variety to really say for sure.

The mic connector on the unit I used was a ta5f... same as my Lectro units use. I'm not familiar with the other one you mentioned.

Most wireless bodypack units use one of a few different connectors... I wish they'd standardize it. Then the ouputs from the reciever are usually either a mini-jack or XLR.

I've used my Senns over a distance that was about 1/4 mile, outside in clear line of site. The only things I find will interfere with the Sennheisers are cell phones (they will get almost any other brand as well) and heavy electrical spikes like closing a breaker on 20 Kwatts of stage lighting.

I normal use, especially weddings, I don't have a problem.

Mike,
Is that the more expensive Senns or the G2?

The original Evolution which has been replaced by the G2.

If you compare the specs of the Sony against the Senny, you'll see that the Senny's are much better.

The value of diversity anytennas on a unit as small as the Sony is dubious at best. At 650 MHz, a 1/4 wavelength is approx 9 inches. The distance between the antennas is only a about 2". Even then, Sony is not employing a "true"
diversity system.

The G2 is very advanced for it's price and size, with frequency scanning and other high end features.

The AT, on the other hand, is the only low cost system to use an actual XLR output connector as well as a standardized transmitter input connector (the TA5f), it is a "true" diversity system, and uses metal construction.

If the pro connecotrs, construction materials and diversity is important to you, go with the AT. If you don't need a balanced output (DV cams) and want a smaller, lighter system, go with the G2.

Before the G2 came along I enthusiastically recommended the Audio Technica wireless to everybody... and it's still a great unit... but now that the G2 is out, and I got a chance to use one (last night) I'm definitely going to steer people that way.

My overall impression of it was VERY good. It's a super-polished system... like I said in another thread... you'll smile everytime you get it out of the bag.

With other systems I wouldn't consider mounting the receiver on-cam... anywhere. With this one I thought I was looking at 2 transmitters and NO receiver... I thought, "what the hell?"... but then I quickly saw that the tiny transmitter and tiny receiver are the same... almost identical.

The G2 system is very trick indeed... I absolutely loved it. If you're not getting nuts on range, and NOBODY ever needs the range they wanted before buying a wireless, the G2 may be all you'll ever need.

I used to be wowed by 100 meter recordings of great sound... I'm really not anymore because all you really need is a reliable 50 feet... and who knows, the G2 may do the 100 meter recordings anyway? All I know for sure is that it sounded great at the distances I normally need a wireless for... and, AND it was an absolute JOY.

I use the UWP-C1 with an optional ECM-77. I'd have to say stock vs stock the Senny has the edge. But add the ECM-77 and I think the Sony will sound better. I can't even describe how much better the ECM-77 sound compared to the supplied pseudo ECM-44! Sounds very rich and clear....more dynamic range.

Only problem is the ECM-77 is like $200 last I checked (maybe more).

Glen, apart from the mic, which transmitter-receiver is better ?

How do you attach an ECM-77 to the UWP-C1 pack ?

Thanks!

I'm also interested in this (still making my purchase decisions), ignoring the mics as this has a large impact on the sound, what is the reliability of the transmitter and receiver from Senn and Sony?

I would like to know more about what Marty was saying with the Sony not being a "true" diversity system. Considering it's marketted and touted as having that over the Sennheiser - and what implications does this have?

Basically, what is the difference in reliability? Is the G2 worth the extra? - although they probably even out if you upgrade the Sony mic. And how good is the mic on the G2 kit to start with?

thanks, Andrew

I would like to know more about what Marty was saying with the Sony not being a "true" diversity system. Considering it's marketted and touted as having that over the Sennheiser - and what implications does this have?



I'd like to hear Marty's explanation of this as well.

If a design utilizes dual receivers (a requirement for "True" diversity), the specifications would say so, as it would be a marketing advantage. Pseudo-diversity, where a single receiver circuit is switched between two antennas by some criteria, are given various names. Sony uses "Space Diveristy" , though they do not explain what that means.

If a design utilizes dual receivers (a requirement for "True" diversity), the specifications would say so, as it would be a marketing advantage. Pseudo-diversity, where a single receiver circuit is switched between two antennas by some criteria, are given various names.

Exactly. However, your previous post intimated that because of antenna length, the Sony systems (and would carry over to most video industry wireless) weren't true diversity. Given that Sony's literature/owners manual for the majority of the UWP systems specifies "dual input circuitry" I'd take that to mean it's a true diversity system. Sony is famous for making their own names for common terms.

Given that I have both a G2 system, and a Sony system (and several AT, Comtek, Nady, and Lectrosonics systems) I'll gladly take the Sony over the G2. When the G2 first started shipping just about a year ago, we had 3 of them at the DC Convention Center. None of them would function across the room without dropouts or interference, depending on the settings. Granted, we only took about 10 minutes to get them going, and we could have spent more time with them, but the Sony and the AT were out of the box functioning. All of the mics we used there were fresh out of the box, and had never been used before, so they all were starting at the same "zero" point. Given choices of all my wireless systems, we use the AT and Lectrosonics the most, depending on what we're doing.

"None of them would function across the room without dropouts or interference, depending on the settings. Granted, we only took about 10 minutes to get them going, and we could have spent more time with them, but the Sony and the AT were out of the box functioning. All of the mics we used there were fresh out of the box, and had never been used before, so they all were starting at the same "zero" point. "

Except for one crtitical difference, the operating frequencies would have been different between the brands.

Given Sony's propensity for loose use of terms, "Dual Input Circuitry" does not necessarily mean "dual receiver circuitry". Only a schematic or block diagram would reveal the degree of trueness.

Not that whatever they are doing doesn't improve performance over what it would do with only one antenna, It could work very well. And I'll also note that a properly designed non-diversity system can outperform a poorly designed true div. system. Assuming good design engineering though, a true div will outperform a pseudo div.

Except for one crtitical difference, the operating frequencies would have been different between the brands.


Well...I sort of assumed no one would think we are dummies, since we do have several books out, plus DVDs on audio...We did shift frequencies on the Senn several times. The A/V people from the convention center had a pair of them as well, that they'd just received, and told us they were aware of problems with their units as well, and so for the time being, they were using their older Shure systems instead.
All systems we had/have are UHF/diversity systems.

It doesn't matter to me what people buy since I don't sell wireless (or other audio equipment) but can say that Sennheiser and Nady are about the only two wireless' I've had a number of problems with. (Samson, Azden, and some of the other very low end systems not included, of course)
According to Andy Munitz of Sony's Professional Audio division, the UWPs are true diversity.
If you're a dealer that doesn't sell Sony, I can understand where you're coming from.
Given that I'm using a wireless every day, my preferences are Audio Technica U100, Lectrosonics, and Sony. I've got no paid or trade endorsement deals with any of these companies, the gear I've got is gear I've tested and liked, and found to be substantive for our uses. Sennheiser has great products too, their G2 wireless just didn't work out for us when we gave it a shot on a couple of occasions.

Actually, I do sell Sony products. Though I'm not here to sell anything, but to share information, and I stand by my signature line.

I trust that you went through the standard proceedure for trying to find a clear channel among those that were available on that unit. Do you recall what band the unit was? As you know, each wireless set (from all manufacturers) is available in several "Blocks" or frequency bands that span approximately 2 TV channels. Is it possible that your G2 unit was delivered with a block that had both channels occupied by TV stations in the DC area? Did you try tuning both brands to the same frequency and do a walk test (not at the same time, of course)? When we order a wireless unit for a customer, we take great care to ask the customer where they will be using their system and do a frequency search for clear channels so as to get them the best block for that area.

Did you try tuning both brands to the same frequency and do a walk test (not at the same time, of course)? .

Indeed we did exactly this, only for a few moments, as we didn't have a lot of time. We assumed that 60 mins would be enough to set them up. These were demos, sent by the manufacturer for the Government Expo show, Sennheiser provided them direct, and knew where we were using them. The AT's worked just fine in the same freq as the G2, I believe they were 725-800MHz range, but that was exactly a year ago, so I'm not remembering totally clearly.
FWIW, I also like the sound of the AT better overall, not that you can be anything but subjective about sound quality. :-)

I was recently in this same position - and I auditioned the Senn and the Sony. Although I went with the Senn in mind (I have several Sennheiser mics and am very happy with them) I ended up buying the Sony UWP C1 and am very happy with it. You are correct about the mic however with the Sony - it is ordinary and not a patch on my Sony ECM 88 (this is a very nice lav.). I have opted to buy an AKG C417L lav. as a direct replacement for the supplied Sony mic. The AKG is not quite up to an ECM 77, but it is very very good for the price (A$150 - which would probably mean less than $100 in the states). I am very happy with the system. Have not had any dropouts and the thing has great range. Will be taking it to Antarctica for some film work next week. This will be a test of all my audio and video gear. I just need to come up with a decent noise suppression system for my lavs. and I will be happy. Am trying to make these now with fake fur and silk.

Graeme; what was the deciding factor in the end for you? Was there a difference in performance. Or was there much price difference for you? I think with the axtra mic factored in they're pretty close from the prices I've seen.
I know at Tasman AV they said they tested the Sony with someone walking around the block in central Collingwood (Hoddle St) and had no dropouts.
So where abouts have you used the wireless system?

Probably the biggest problem with filming outdoors in Antarctica will be the low temps. Batteries just won't be friendly there at all, but I don't know what covers you can get for cameras that insulate well. And most cameras state operation should be >0 Celsius. Maybe Lithium batteries are OK, so long as all the cells are working - but I know if one goes, your operating times diminish. Cold makes this worse.

I've been looking at the other mic modules. Is the 77 cardioid? Videoguys recommended getting the ECM44 (~ $170), but they're may be better mics for the money as you've suggested. I'm more inclined towards an omni for weddings. Though I suppose it's good to have a few options available on hand for differing circumstances.

On the windshield side, I don't know if they have a blimp for lav mics, but there are limits to what foam and fur can do - and Antarctica is probably where you will find them. Just hope you don't get strong winds when you're there. At least you won't get rained on.

Andrew,

The Sony just outperformed the Senn. better range and slightly better quality sound in my opinion (although this is difficult to compare with different mics). THe Senn. also had a couple of crackles. With the AKG I definitely preferred the Sony on all counts and it was about the same price with the AKG fitted. I am sure with an ECM 77B the SOny would be a lot better. Pity really because I liked the look and build of the Senn better. I am sure I have made the correct choice however.

I know that the cold will be a big problem in Antarctica. I have an all weather housing for my Sony A1 - but my Z1 will be only protected by a KATA rain cover. I have stack of batteries - and I intend to keep them next my body to remain warm - and swap them as required. I do expect that I will get very good range and few interferences in Antarctica from my wireless system! I have tried to make my own wind suppression system for the Lavs - but it is looking like I will have to buy some windcats for them. Oh well can't get do it yourself with everything! Have made a very good wind blimp for my Sennheiser ME64 - tested to about 80kph with no noise!

Thanks for the info Graeme.
Yeah I figured you'd at least have some idea what you're doing. I don't imagine many people go that far south without some forethought. As much as I like my cross country skiing and snow I'm not rushing to go anywhere that harsh.

Just wondering where you picked up your AKG C417L mic from? I'm looking for a good price on it, rather than any price. And which fitting did it have for the wireless - it looks like the Sony takes something similar to a 3.5mm connector. Sounds like a good way to go anyway, can always upgrade to an even better mic later.

Enjoy the trip, and the extra daylight. At least it should be the better time of year to go.

Graeme

Good luck on your trip and do recount your experiences to us when you're back please !

best regards

Thanks guys - I am really looking forward to the experience - it should be a real challenge, but I know that I will get some great footage. Will report on the performance of equipment including the Sony UWP C1 when I get back in a couple of months.

Andrew - picked up my AKG from John Barry (Panavision) in Sydney. THese people really know what they are doing. THey have a Melbourne office as well. The Sony takes a 3.5mm locking mini-jack connector - which the AKG plugs straight in to.

Another Syndeysider here, sorry to say but in our experience the Sennheisers leave the Sony gear for dead, we were able to get at least 10 times the range out of the Sennheisers compared to the Sony kit plus they're way more robust. We now have around 8 kits of G2s pretty well all hired out every weekend and so far only one faulty switch after someone sat on the transmitter. We've had these Sennheisers travel the globe without a single problem, more thay I could ever say for the Sony wireless mics that we had.
And I have to agree with the other comments made, there's no way that the Sony units are even true space diversity, the aerials are too close together for the system to work and even so the concept really only works well at HF, not UHF, for that you need frequency diversity which none of the gear at this price point has or better yet spread spectrum.
One thing though, you need to get the 500 series Sennheisers, more expensive than the 100 series but more channels and more range.

Bob, are you saying the Sennheiser 100 or 500 series leaves the Sony system for dead? Of course the 500 should, it's a higher end system, and you pay for it.

From what I see the 500 series has the same 1440 selectable frequencies, but there is a D and E range of frequencies for the 500 series. Is this a less used part of the spectrum - and hence less interference prone, and is it likely to stay that way?

So what are the realistic ranges of the different systems?
How much of the difference between all 3 is the trasmitter/receiver, and how much is the microphone that's used?

Seems like there's a few more things to consider - I just want to make the right purchase decision.

We're only using the 500 series, I really can't comment on the 100 series as we only tried that series prior to the Evolution 2 came out. We're also using the quite expensive omni mics from Sennheiser, the cheaper ones used to fail, mostly the leads. These more expensive mics have pretty well unbreakable leads, I think you could garrot someone with the things. For comparision we're paying around AUD 500 for the mics, these things even come with their own serial numbers. Sorry I can't find the model number of the mics from our web site.
Apart from the extra channels the 500 series seems to have greater range as well, that may or may not be a factor for you to consider.
I should explain that I work for a hire company, cost isn't our main consideration, reliability, robustness and ease of use are the biggest factors. Some of the gear we carry I probably wouldn't buy myself, I look after my kit so I can afford to spend a bit less on it. Then again my evaluations are pretty valid if you're working in harsh environments or travelling with the gear where a failure can be a disaster.
I'll also add that it's been a few years since we tried any of the Sony wireless kit. Up until we sold off our Sony wireless mics we'd not had a good run with them, less reliable, nowhere near the range etc of the Sennheisers and that was before the e2 range came out.
As I think I mentioned before you do need to invest a little time with the Sennheisers to get the most out of them, setting input levels is pretty important.
As to interference, we have our mics set with each kit on its own channel and so far not a single mention of interference from anything, I test these things with a GSM mobile in my pocket and have never heard a beep from the mobile get into the mics.
At the end of the day there's probably not THAT much difference between the Sennhesier 100 series and the Sony offering, the 500 series though is a different story, maybe it's an unfair one given the price difference.

Bob, I did post earlier (but it seems to have been lost) commenting pretty much the same as you just said. I am a Sennheiser fan - and I know that the 500 series are good (but at this price I might consider a Lectrosonics set), but the 100 series just are not as good as the Sony UWP's. Apparently the Sony UWP's are totally different to the old Sony systems. My dealer said that they were very sceptical at first after using the old Sony systems - but after using the UWP C1 they came to the same conclusion that I had (apart from the ordinary supplied lav mic.).

The Senns. are built better - but I look after my equipment - and for me the Sony system is more than robust enough, so performance is the main issue here.

when sony first came out with this - i think it was about 1.5 years ago, i listened to the supplied lousy mic they demoed. it was not the ecm-44, but i forget what it was. i was thinking that if i got this system i might need to upgrade the mic but not sure what would be best for about $100. i'm using the ecm-44 lav for years and i thought it was good, so maybe i'd upgrade to that, unless someone has a better suggestion. for my purposes i want omnidirectional. for interviews, docs, events, weddings, misc.

I used the Sony UWP C1 last year for a major project, and found the system to be very good indeed, and would recommend it to anyone. Not as good, or as well built as the superb Sony 800-series that I now use, but the UWP wireless mic system is still a great product.

I have been reading through this thread, but am still not sure which of the two is the better option!

I know some of you suggested ATW portable systems, but they are apparently not yet available in Australia (as they do not YET meet our strict electrical standards), so I can cross them off my list...

Is there a definite answer or are they both as good as each other and it's simply up to personal preference?

FYI: Australian Pricing of the two to [possibly] help with comparison:

Sony UWPC1 UHF Wireless Lapel Mic System $869.00
Sennheiser ew 112-p G2 Wireless Lapel Mic System $990.00

Chris!

I'm pondering more or less the same question Chris : the sony or the Sennheiser.
I was leaning Sony's way, but thinking about it, the ew-100p (as opposed to the ew112p) system appeals as it has the SKP100 plug-on transmitter which will turn any mic with an XLR socket into a wireless mic. (i guess you could use it with a mic-jack too with the appropriate XLR-to-minijack convertor.

I just think that SKP100 could be enormously useful, and it's just USD100 more than the ew112 system. (systems are otherwise the same i think).

Take a listen/look to this demo (starring Guy Cochran!) using a Rode NT3 with that SKP100 :
http://dvcreators.net/products/indoormic_movieframe.htm

Thanks for your reply Stu. It's such a tough decision! My instinct tells me Sennheiser would make better audio products than Sony. The fact that Sony is pretty much "giving away" these kits with Z1P sales nowdays makes me think that maybe no one buying them because they're not up to scratch. I think I'm going to have to test drive both products myself. At this stage, Sennheiser is at the top of my list. I'll also have a look at that link... Cheers!

Chris!

Can't speak for sales in Oz, but can tell you the UWP is an outstanding wireless. In managed wireless zones, have had far fewer problems with the Sony than with the Sennheiser. At the LVCC last week, the Sony ran with no problems in 3 different rooms, the G2 wouldn't function in two of the rooms. Place is a wireless nightmare though.
Nothing cheap about the UWP at all, unless you get the cruddy mic that they do have available. (Can't remember the part number off the top of my head)

That's really surprising Douglas! I would have never guessed that a Sony audio product would out perform a Sennheiser product! So I guess your recommendation would be a Sennheiser kit over a Sony kit?

Yes, I guess the wireless system is only as good as the mic you use. I have a Shure lapel mic (not sure which model - has a 4-pin connector if that helps) - would it be compadible with the Sony transmitters?

Chris!

you can make almost any mic work on most any wireless, for the most part.
Bear in mind, the performance of the Sony was here in the US, can't comment on what might work better down unda. You have to have the antenna's upside down, right?
Seriously, I did a shoot at Lion Island (NSW) with David Hague of VideoCamera, and the Sony worked great there. I had an AT 899 configured for the Sony. Didn't take the Senn down with me, so can't compare. As far as audio quality, I don't imagine there is much difference in the companders, and that's where it really counts, overall.

Well if there's not any difference between their audio quality, then I guess it's just a matter of what looks the best, has the most appropriate connectors for your situation, cost, etc...

If the sound quality is THE SAME for both then I think the Sony is obviously the better option...

Chris!