After working on my mini35/micro35 dof machine and working with Adobe Premier Pro 1.5 I have found several Flaws...When using the Horizontal and Vertical Flip Filter we have degraded video to the point that it is worthless.. I have tried this on 2 machines...All video is 60i interlaced. These are BMP Images shot with a Sony PDX-10... here is the link

http://bellaire.homestead.com/files/mediafiles/premier_flip.pdf

I have had the same results in Premiere and PPro. (best option being rotate 180)
I have tested Avid (just for the rotation) and it does a clean job. I have seen the same clean job done in FCP. I love Premiere (not Pro) so I flipped the camera.

So I'm not nuts... What about avid free dv? or AVI Sith and vurtual Dub? Any ideas? Thanks

If you are flipping DV-AVI, don't forget about its limited colorspace. When you flip-flip it or rotate it (to your taste), you'll force a recompress cycle, and be massively messing around with the already limited colorspace.

How can you get around this? You'll have to work with uncompressed AVIs. Render out the flip/rotate as uncompressed AVI and keep it there.

Or, if you are doing 24p conversion at some point, do all of that processing prior to the flip/rotate. Deartifact, convert to 24p, save as uncompressed AVI... then do your flip/rotate.

It will look pretty bad any other way.

Josh

I used AVID free DV to flip the footage, save it as AVI and import it in Premiere.

Color Space and recompress... OK looks like I'll have to folow through with the Free DV and save out... Thanks for the Info on the Color space... Gets me thinking a bit more about what all goes on behind the walls of an AVI...
Also Dan do you capture the footage in Free Dv then export out as AVI or do you inport AVI into Free DV and flip and Export to AVI... Thanks for all the help...

Import in Avid (from tape) fip, save as ...AVI.
Premiere: import file (...avi) edit. you are welcome. DV INFO IS GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

Craig - you sent me your footage and I will post some results.

I did the 180 rotation in Pinnacle Liquid Edition 6 and I cannot see any difference between flipped and non-flipped.

I am not a FCP user so I cannot speak from experience, but the flip=recompress and massively changing color space doesn't ring true for me - it certainly isn't my experience in LE6.

Import in Avid (from tape) fip, save as ...AVI.
Premiere: import file (...avi) edit. you are welcome. DV INFO IS GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

This was said already and leads to more compression.

You can try AVISynth, which would get rid of another compression step. I posted the samples on Micro35 forum for you.

Seems to me that it's an interlace issue.

If you're shooting interlaced video, and you want it to stay as interlaced video, it doesn't seem to me that there's any perfect solution to fix this problem, other than to flip the camera upside down when you shoot. The next best solution that I can think of would be to move the clip up or down by one pixel, and render it out as if it were progressive.

Flipping the Image in Final Cut Pro looks flawless. Yeah, I know you may all be on PCs. I thought I'd just make this of record for others venturing into the 35mm imaging madness. I'm using progressive footage from an XL2 and that may also be aiding in the ease of processing.

Even better yet, export out as Uncompressed and you'll be ensuring you don't add any possible DV-based recompression artifacts.

OK I've been playing with virtual dub and it's a great tool. I can flip, de-interlace and add an s-curve all at once and it's over with. Even looks good... best of all it's free... thanks again

Craig - where is the flip feature in virtual dub? I'm using 1.5.1

Thanks

Brian,
Video->Filters->Add
use either "rotate" or "flip horizontally" and "flip vertically"
Not sure if they give you the same output or if one is better than the other

Cheers

VDUB is great, you can rotate 180, deinterlace and even add an S-Curve all at the same time..Video->Filters->Add. You will have to load a codec for DV that works with VFW and you can even used a diffent codec to output such as windows DV to Pinnacle or canopus...

Brian can you e-mail me please craigbellaire@hotmail.com

Craig,
What deinterlace filter are you using in virtualdub?
I think there are a fair few 'smart' deinterlacers around.

Thanks

I've been trying out "Field BOB" some guy made it and by the reviews it's great. The've even incoperated it into VDUB. BUT Again I'm new to VDUB and even to deinterlacing. SO Is it good.? Not sure... Seams good and looks good to me... I need to try it against Procoder and maybe Adobe... I have a question though.. If I deinterlace be fore I bring the footage into Premier Pro 1.5... When I export do I need to do abything special so keep it deinterlaced? Or should I do all deinterlacing when I'm finished with the whole project? thanks

Keyframe and Rendering, select No Fields (Progressive Scan) when exporting from Premiere Pro.

Craig,
I have run through all options; both P and PPro do the damn 180 rotation CLEAN! (....Comes to think of it: if they made all those options available, they should do a good job shouldn’t they? including the 180 deg!!)
The lines we saw (from your footage) are here (in my tests) as well, but that is the "nature" of the beast (temporal and spatial displacement during fast motion between fields captured in 60i)
Try this: import a still with fine details (real still image, not from footage) get it in the time line. Copy/paste (same image) and flip it, then print to video, see it in full scren. Change all settings (frame, fields, deinterlace) and then do the same and change the monitor's settings from 60, 70, 72 to 75Hz. See what happens. Let us know.

DVMaker kicks a** when it comes to deinterlacing.

http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/

They have a free trial

Hello Mini 35ers.
I am wondering if it is the codec in Premiere that makes our vision flipped look bad or is it just the render engine. What abotu a program like after effects?

In some tests ive seen the image flipped in DV Microsoft, edited, then color corrected and put to dvd makes it look like a VCD.

I think i might take the free avid approach next time, or go uncompressed altogether,

Will the avid dv codec work in premiere?

B.Sundry

I was thinking...doesn't anyone know some programmers who could create a simple capture program which automatic rotates the footage when capturing....something like winDV with this feature built in?? This would be really nice. Perhaps in form of a plugin to any known capturing program??

Comes to think of it..... is already there!!!
The image from the camcorder's lens hitting the CCD is up side down (to begin with). So.... what you are talking about I think is already there doing what it should not supposed to do (lol) (for our purposes).
I would guess it would be just a pull up resistor to be disconnected, or.... a switch on the case (optional)

Are you talking about modifying the camera itself? I really think a capture program with this built in feature would be the easiest approach. It shouldn't be that hard to do for someone who knows how to program. It should just be a question about getting the program to read the pixels from the opposite sides or am I way off?

Given the huge interest in the micro35 and this whole space, the NLEs should do this. Adding a check box in FCP, Avid, etc. [insert your favorite NLE here] should be a no-brainer.

Would you be able to do that?

If by "you" you mean the NLE vendors, then sure, why not. I volunteer them wholeheartedly :)