The numbers are sure to be fuzzy because there's probably a lot of crossover in use between still & video, but here's how I look at it:

# of Vimeo clips tagged 5DmkII: 3,096

# of Flickr photos from the 5DmkII: 37,925

a 10x difference, not that huge until you realize that the vimeo stat is all time - while the flickr stat is for yesterday. The flickr all time count is 8.5 million. So while it's not a precise method I think it pretty clearly indicates the usage overwhelmingly skews towards still photography.

Hi Guys,

I think this might have gone under the radar, so thought I'd bring it up again.

Hello all,

I went to the launch of the 1D Mk IV at Park Cameras in Burgess Hill, UK. Whilst there I chatted to the guys from canon about the 5D MkII. I managed to glean the following.

1) The update should be available in Jan/Feb

2) It should include 50p 60p (although he sounded a little sketchy about this)

3) The AGC will remain in place

I had a little play with the 1D Mk IV but no memory cards were allowed as the cameras where pre production, so I couldn't really tell much from the LCD on the camera with regards to image quality, although saying that the LCD itself is very nice, and an improvement over the 5D MkII.

I hope this is of interest to people.


All the best,

George

# of Vimeo clips tagged 5DmkII: 3,096

# of Flickr photos from the 5DmkII: 37,925

a 10x difference, not that huge until you realize that the vimeo stat is all time - while the flickr stat is for yesterday. The flickr all time count is 8.5 million. So while it's not a precise method I think it pretty clearly indicates the usage overwhelmingly skews towards still photography.


Well, to me your argument is like comparing apples to pumpkins -- I'm one of those who bought the 5DMKII for video only, but yet, I've shot more stills with it than videos, (unless you count my videos as 30 individual stills per second ;^)

However, when it comes to the time I've used the camera, it's more like 99% video vs 1% still photography, if not even less, (I use a different SLR for still gigs).

-- peer

Canon does not have high end video portfolio as of today.

They do if you count the fact they make the most high end glass for 2/3 eng cams.

I'm in the same situation as Peer. I can snap a photo in the time it takes the firmware to boot. I generally shoot RAW, but if I shoot JPGs, I can connect a USB cable and upload and huge number of snaps.

Making a film? That takes more time. :)

Personally, I was not remotely in the market for a still camera. Had my wife told me to get an SLR, I would have resisted spending over $500. Then Canon releases the 5D Mark II and within a month, I dish out $2,700 for the thing, as well as money for memory cards, spare battery and lens adapter. Not to mention the money I've spent on lenses and other accessories since then.

I had looked at the HVX200 and then the 170 and never pulled the trigger. Had RED released Scarlet on the schedule they announced at NAB, I would have bought that. When the D90 came out, I really wanted that to be my camera, but the codec and rolling shutter didn't make the grade. When the 5D Mark II came out, my D90 budget more than doubled overnight.

The 5D Mark II is really a breakthrough product. It broke through my bank account barrier and removed my money - while leaving me smiling. :)

I'll buy most of that, makes sense to me.

The 5% was just a guess, but I'm not sure it's being interpreted the way I meant. I was just saying that it's my personal belief that there are orders of magnitude more people buying the 5D2 primarily for photography as opposed to buying it primarily for videography. That's not to say the new segment isn't wildly important, but just saying make no mistake, it's a stills camera first and foremost, and I personally believe that's why the overwhelming majority of people buy one.

There's another aspect: I'm a professional still photographer (concerts mainly), and I have two 5D's. I just sold one of these and got me a 5D mk II, just because I can use it for my hobby (making videoclips) and because Canon promises a firmware update to 25p. If the MkII wouldn't have done high quality video, I would have stuck with my 'old' 5D's much longer, because for the job they're still perfect. So in this case, the video-aspect generated extra - or at least sooner- sales for Canon.

They do if you count the fact they make the most high end glass for 2/3 eng cams.

Canon does not have high end video cam line today, or they have outdated stuff. They have glasses, you are right.

But Beta isn't dead yet! LOLOLOLOLocal Neeewwwsss...

Well, to me your argument is like comparing apples to pumpkins -- I'm one of those who bought the 5DMKII for video only, but yet, I've shot more stills with it than videos, (unless you count my videos as 30 individual stills per second ;^)


Sure, and I'm not suggesting this is a precise way of measuring precise usage - I don't think there is a way. And these numbers are naturally only a tiny fraction of total usage. I shot over 35 hours of video on my 5D this year, and I've only got about 30 minutes of it on Vimeo - and I'm probably into 3-4000 stills with none on flickr.

But consider the huge disparity in in total numbers - .0003x as many videos as stills. Flickr has an average of 2000 users uploading photos from the 5DmkII every day. Vimeo probably has 500 total 5DmkII users (I'm just assuming an average of 3-5 clips per user). I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that it's at least a 10:1 ratio of photo to video users.

What your not taking into account it the "easy" factor. I can shoot a pic and have it on flickr in about 5 minutes, and it could be a decent photo. Its WAY more work to shoot video, import it, convert it, edit it and then render it and upload it to vimeo than it is a picture. Thats why the numbers are so misleading.

Actually I am taking that into account. I would absolutely expect more photos than videos because of the ease of uploading them - that's why I say I think 10:1 is reasonable, despite the fact that the actual numbers are significantly higher.

And I'm not saying that video sales are an insignificant portion of the overall camera sales - even if it represents a 2-3% increase in sales for the camera it's important to Canon, especially if you consider that much of that 2-3% is probably also buying lenses from Canon for the first time. I just think it's really easy to spend a lot of time hanging around here and assuming that the rest of the world feels the same way about this camera as everyone here - which I don't think is the case.

And I'm not saying that video sales are an insignificant portion of the overall camera sales - even if it represents a 2-3% increase in sales

I suspect that it must be quite a bit more than 2-3% -- I got three friends of mine who are all still photographers (one is a full time professional) that bought the MKII after I got mine -- and what was their reason? You guessed it -- its HD DOF video capability.

-- peer

I know I wouldn't have bought it if it wasn't for its video capability. I also have a friend who was a nikon photographer as a hobby but video is his profession and switched over to canon for the mkII video functions and also bought lenses for video, and is going to buy flashes for his hobby, so video production really helped the sale not only of the camera, but its accessories.

Any news at all on the Canon firmware update allowing optional frame rates for video ???

I was at CES Thursday and Friday. Not a peep about the new firmware delivery dates or features.

I was at CES Thursday and Friday. Not a peep about the new firmware delivery dates or features.

I'm curious -- were there any other new 5DII related stuff of interest..?

-- peer

I was at CES Thursday and Friday. Not a peep about the new firmware delivery dates or features.

Ugh.

Man, it's going to be a happy day when they finally come through, but the wait is getting kind of excruciating.

There's the new 70-200L II. It's said to be a bit heavier than the current model, because of an additional element. It has the new hybrid IS, including modes 1 and 2 (panning).

The real motivation for the new lens is faster focusing. Sports photographers were not happy with the 1D3. The 1D4 focusing is said to be MUCH better. I think Canon was desperate to maintain their lead in sports, so they delivered improved focus response on the 70-200 to seal the deal.

We've got to wait for the firmware to ship - and NAB to arrive - before we get more information and products for pro video...

"It has the new hybrid IS, including modes 1 and 2 (panning). "

You sure about that Jon? I thought it was not the hybrid system (reserved for the 100macro). I know the V2 70-200's IS has increased to include another stop, but I don't believe they included Hybrid stabilization.

Just as an fyi, the original 70-200/2.8is also has iS mode switch 1/2:)

Anything at all in the Canon area that's NOT predicated on the "Consumer market?" IE, other than the ELPHs and Power Shots, is there any DSLR activity? Are they showing off the 1d4?

J

Jeremy, you're probably right. From the Canon website: " It features a next-generation Optical Image Stabilizer, providing up to 4 stops of correction at all focal lengths." I had assumed that the "next generation Optical Image Stabilizer" was the same as the new IS in the Macro. Now that I think about it, x-y stabilization is important in a macro, but not so much in a long lens. The next gen IS is probably just faster and more precise.

One thing the CES rep mentioned is that the new lens has a 1ft shorter minimum focus distance, which is sweet (1.2m/3.94 ft. - maximum close-up magnification: 0.21x). I have the 200/2.8L and the 4.9 ft MFD can be a stretch when photographing something at your feet - and it only offers 0.16x magnification. It's nice when you can keep shooting with your long lens, rather than having to change over to a macro to get the shot.

Hi all, I rarely post, but I figure I should share what I've been told. I've been researching the 5D a lot lately, and am eagerly awaiting the 24p firmware (I shoot stills and video). I've been hesitant to drop the money on one until the firmware comes out, just in case it ends up not happening, but now I'm sure enough it will.

I was out at CES over the weekend, and on Saturday I went to the Canon booth and asked one of the reps who called himself a "junior tech" or something to that effect (he's new, basically) what was up with the 24p update, and is it actually happening? He said it's 99% likely that it will come out and that a guest at CES had brought him a new 5DmkII that had already had the firmware from the factory, and he claimed (not me, I didn't even ask about this) that it had 720p60 as well. He said that Canon would release the firmware in new cameras from the factory before it was made available online, which he claimed should happen soon. Not a lot of specifics beyond that. I asked if he was sure it was a 5DmkII and not a 7D that he saw (since he seemed green), and he said he was sure it was a 5DmkII.

Naturally since he's new I want confirmation, so I went back and asked someone else on Sunday. This guy (I got his card, it's not with me at the moment, I didn't ask if he wanted me giving his name out - so I won't, wasn't thinking about posting here at the time) claimed his specialty was both the video cameras and the stills with video. We talked about the limitations of the HDV format as well as the audio and other limitations of shooting on the 5D. Anyway, he said that the 24p update was going to be coming out, he claimed he didn't know many details about it like release date or anything, though. He doubted that it would enable Audio Gain Control, and reccommended a mixer and just getting scratch audio off the 5D. Oddly enough I overheard him talking to another rep that another guest with a lot of questions should check out DV Info to get an understanding of the benefits and limitations of the 5D for video. So props to you all.

Last week I called Canon USA to ask about the same thing, they told me they couldn't say anything because they didn't know, though that they were probably not out of line with what I had heard from the UK and Australian press releases.

The reps were pretty open with me, I didn't press them for any answers, I just asked casually. I didn't present myself as press although I had a badge, but as an interested potential customer, which is the case.

I appreciate you all as an info source for helping me make this decision, and I just thought you all should hear this. I can't vouch for the validity of any of this, but everything I wrote is how it happened, and I hope to pay you back by contributing what I can.

That's great info Elliot,

I notice at ParkCameras (UK) that the 5DMk2 now lists bare and kit versions "Available whilst stock lasts". Does this mean they are awaiting new models with built in updated firmware I wonder.

Still waiting on the firmware, too. I have had the chance to play with the video capabilities of my new 5D and I am remarkably impressed. The small form factor and the ability to get it into tight spaces makes for a great kit especially for my needs.

I'm currently working on building a rig that will be modular so that I can shoot on a tripod, shoulder mounted or suction mounted. Now all I need is the firmware to make this my number one cam =)

I'm seriously fed up with waiting for this update, having almost driven myself insane doing the 30 - 25 frame rate conversion in Compressor more times than i care to remember.
16 hours for an 8 minutes film. In fact i've considered trading it in for a 7d.

A Canon rep at a trade show in London before Xmas told me to expect it "at the end of January", while another one was less committal, with the official Canon announcement of "first half of 2010".

Let's hope the first guy proves to be right.

I'm with you, I'm ready for it to come out. My impression is that it's right around the corner, which is enough for me to justify ordering it, which I just did (expecting it tomorrow!), though with some apprehension.
Based on what I heard, I'd guess it should be out around the same timeframe, i.e. within the next month or so (unless something goes wrong in testing). I have little doubt that it is coming. I considered the 7D, but I saw a stills comparison and the 5D is noticeably better, at least as far as noise, but other IQ reasons too. Plus I've wanted a full frame still camera for a years, enough to put off buying a DSLR, and if I waited this long I may as well get what I've been waiting for. It's too bad wide motion picture lenses won't fit, que sera sera.

I'm kind of wondering what other tweaks may be involved in addition to 24p. Zebra bars? Reduction in Moire pattern issues? Who knows?

Not only am I oh-so-very-much looking forward to the 24p thing (and hopefully 720/60p), but if they could reduce the moire, I'd pretty much have to marry the camera.

I just edited a bit last night were a woman's wool dress and nylons moire'd so badly, I couldn't use the shot. Ended up using an alternative where the camera was at a different distance and only they nylons "danced" for a moment or two.

I'm not a pixel counter, but still, sometimes it drives ya nuts.

I reckon they'll have to release it before NAB (this April), otherwise they'll get flogged on the show floor.

[...] if they could reduce the moire, I'd pretty much have to marry the camera.

Me too. I don't think they'll address the DSLR moire issues any time in the next few years, but I've got my hopes up for 2014.

Not only am I oh-so-very-much looking forward to the 24p thing (and hopefully 720/60p), but if they could reduce the moire, I'd pretty much have to marry the camera.

I just edited a bit last night were a woman's wool dress and nylons moire'd so badly, I couldn't use the shot. Ended up using an alternative where the camera was at a different distance and only they nylons "danced" for a moment or two.

I'm not a pixel counter, but still, sometimes it drives ya nuts.

I am curious if you guys have done any testing with combinations of a low sharpness setting in your cameras, coupled with a conversion to cineform, and reintroduction of sharpness after the conversion. Does that help with moire or aliasing reduction ?

Agreed. A few of us asked about the new firmware at CES, but at NAB it would look like feeding time in the piranha tank!

Overall, Canon has been pretty smart about the 5D2 firmware - releasing just enough to get what they need. Manual firmware made Canon lenses - and IS - valuable for video. The 24/25p announcement kept the 5D2 strong through the holiday sales season. The price drop helps post-Christmas sales. Now, Canon needs to follow up on the 24/25p promise.

I'm hopeful that the new firmware will match the features of the 7D/1D4, namely that we will get 1080/23.976, 1080/25, 1080/29.97, 720/50, and 720/59.97 as well as HD out during recording to help with manual focusing. Why would they do that? Simply to put the firmware to bed. As long as the 5D2 is lacking compared to its sisters, Canon will hear nagging and discontent. Make the three cameras the same, and Canon has a strong lineup with consistent advantages and disadvantages. Canon can easily say that any new features won't be introduced until the next generation of products.

Fingers crossed for 720p and HD out during recording. And, yes, it should be in our hands before April.

HD Out! Yes! I forgot about that. If the camera had that and defeated AGC, well, what comes after marriage...? Hmm... Never mind. That's just gross.

Chris B, No I haven't tried dropping the Sharpness yet. I am, however, editing in Cineform.
This project was shot last Sept, as I recall. Anyway, it was before the mighty "Manual Controls Firmware Update." And it was my second shoot with the camera to boot. So my shots are all different exposures and settings. Fortunately I had learned enough to be JUST barely clever enough to know how to fake lock the ISO.

So that will be my next test, dropping down the contrast and Sharpness to see what happens - but that's for another thread.

Just curious if anyone has heard anything on the alleged firmware update to allow selectable frame rates?

I check the Canon website every day, but was also curious if anyone has heard anything from the other web sites or contacts they have?

Canon... if you're reading, please release the firmware update !!!!!

I had two conversations with Canon USA last week. One with tech support and another in sales/marketing at Canon USA headquarters.

Both told me similar answers when I asked them about frame rates. The updated 5D firmware regarding frame rates will match the 7d ie, be the same.

Both also said something on the order that that was their understanding, not the official word until it comes out.

Nice!

If we can get HD from HDMI while recording too we'll be set.

"Thank you for your inquiry about recording 24p video with your 5D Mark
II. We value you as a Canon customer and appreciate the opportunity to
assist you.

At this moment there is no information available regarding any future
firmware updates for the 5D Mark II. We recommend you check our website
(EOS (SLR) Camera Systems - EOS Digital SLR Cameras - EOS 35mm SLR Cameras - Lenses - Flashes - Canon USA Consumer Products (http://www.canoneos.com)) from time to time to learn of new firmware
announcements.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Please let us know if we
can be of any further assistance with your 5D Mark II."

Not sure what this proves, maybe just the fact that Canon support is not connected with any development.

Just proves again that the standard answer to that standard question is all anyone will get until it is actually released or an additional formal press release is issued. Standard business practice.

Meanwhile, I guarantee you they are losing (lots) of potential 5D2 sales to 7Ds. At some point, you'd think they'd step in and stop that bleeding -- I personally know of several of these situations, and those folks are now perfectly happy with their choices, they won't be switching once the firmware comes out, but they would have bought a 5D2 if it had 24p/60p.

I'm happy they announced, so at least we know it's coming, but the longer the wait, the more frustrated many of us get.

If for nothing else than 29.97.... Less to transcode in compressor and less to deal with with audio syncing issues.

I would like to play with 24p as well. I have heard and read that is should be soon.

Please let it rip Canon!!!

You're right Bill......Canon what's up? Why put off until tommorrow what you can do today.....come on baby...release release!

Meanwhile, I guarantee you they are losing (lots) of potential 5D2 sales to 7Ds.
Eh? Canon aren't losing anything. Many people will run with both the 7D and the 5D. It makes perfect sense to delay.

Eh? Canon aren't losing anything. Many people will run with both the 7D and the 5D. It makes perfect sense to delay.

I PERSONALLY know of two specific instances of people who got a 7D instead of a 5D2 because of the framerate issue, and those two people aren't looking back and aren't going to switch when the framerate firmware hits. That right there PROVES without ANY doubt that they are losing at least "something." Whether it's a big deal or not can be debated, and the folks that have both in all likelihood have both because they need two cameras anyway. Just saying... I personally know of two instances of $1,000 they could have had that they now don't.

I PERSONALLY know of two specific instances of people who got a 7D instead of a 5D2 because of the framerate issue, and those two people aren't looking back and aren't going to switch when the framerate firmware hits. That right there PROVES without ANY doubt that they are losing at least "something."

I wouldn't think that's an issue for Canon as long as also the 7D is a Canon camera. Am I missing something?

-- peer

Normally, I'm pretty patient. I put up with no manual control and was thrilled when the 1.1.0 was announced and released. I was confident that 24p would come next. I was content when the firmware announcement arrived.

But as February approaches, I have to admit that I'm feeling more and more impatient. I'm not caring about Canon sales. I'd just like 24p (and 60p) already - before the 5D2 becomes yesterday's news.

The other day I watched one of my favorite movies again.... The Right Stuff. I am reminded of a line when Alan Sheperd had waited hours inside the capsule for countdown holds, and a eventually had to urinate in his space suit. Then more holds, and finally, he is quoted as saying something like, "Okay, enough of this crap, lets light this candle". They pushed the button, and off he went.

Its time Canon, lets light this candle !

I wouldn't suprise me if once they release the 5Dll 24p update then they announce a new cam right after that....thus making the 5Dll yesterday's news.

I wouldn't think that's an issue for Canon as long as also the 7D is a Canon camera. Am I missing something?

-- peer

Yeah, they're missing $1,000 every time it happens.

I'm actually convinced this line of thinking on the lens front is what got us the first firmware fix with manual control (losing sales to other lens manufacturers), and I'll bet this line of thinking has something to do with getting the second update. You start adding up $1K per and I bet it could start becoming a non-trivial number at some point. If you can stop that hemorrhaging with a simple firmware update, you do it, it's a no-brainer.

Yeah, they're missing $1,000 every time it happens.They're probably still selling both cameras about as fast as they can make them, camera body sales undoubtedly drive far larger revenues in future lens sales than than the cost of the body, and the profit margins are probably roughly proportional to the prices. So I doubt that Canon budgeting is shaking in their shoes about this thread.

STILL, they are offering significant free firmware upgrades that were never promised at original release. No doubt the firmware will be released as soon as Canon is confident it is ready.

I'm looking forward to the firmware update, too. But I bought the 5DmII because I wanted a full frame DSLR, and am pleased to have the additional ability to shoot decent HD video clips with it. If I was buying today, I'd still buy a 5DmII. I'm in the original target demographic which remains the vast majority of the 5DmII's market. The vocal minority who think of it as a video camera first and a still camera second or not at all have had Canon's attention and are being accommodated.

If the lot of you ranting about the wait look back at this thread in a year, you'll be embarrassed at yourselves.

So I doubt that Canon budgeting is shaking in their shoes about this thread.
Also, you've got to admit that Canon is the only game in town in this market. The super-thin DOF options are the 5Dii and Panavision, and let's be honest, we don't have the budget to negotiate with Panavision.

If tomorrow, the XL-H1 develops some fatal flaw - I'm sure the Sony EX-1 or EX-3 will start selling like hotcakes, and Canon will rush to fix the error. But the 5D is the only game in town. Not to say we should be greatful for any bone Canon throws us, but we shouldn't be surprised when adding more features for free isn't at the top of their list.

They're probably still selling both cameras about as fast as they can make them, camera body sales undoubtedly drive far larger revenues in future lens sales than than the cost of the body, and the profit margins are probably roughly proportional to the prices. So I doubt that Canon budgeting is shaking in their shoes about this thread.

STILL, they are offering significant free firmware upgrades that were never promised at original release. No doubt the firmware will be released as soon as Canon is confident it is ready.

I'm looking forward to the firmware update, too. But I bought the 5DmII because I wanted a full frame DSLR, and am pleased to have the additional ability to shoot decent HD video clips with it. If I was buying today, I'd still buy a 5DmII. I'm in the original target demographic which remains the vast majority of the 5DmII's market. The vocal minority who think of it as a video camera first and a still camera second or not at all have had Canon's attention and are being accommodated.

If the lot of you ranting about the wait look back at this thread in a year, you'll be embarrassed at yourselves.


I personally won't be embarrassed about anything. I bought the 5D2 for FF Stills, and I don't regret it one bit. It is an awesome camera. That has nothing to do with it. And I'm waiting just like everyone else, just voicing a little frustration, which is perfectly acceptable. And by the way, I bet you sell that much more more expensive L-glass to FF camera owners, so just another reason to stop the bleeding. And if you don't think the Canon bean counters watch that kind of thing, I think you're kidding yourself. There's a long-term strategy in here, I'm sure some of it has to do with the M-IV, and bandwidth of engineers, etc., but how these cams fit across the product spectrum in terms of positioning is an important thing to them no doubt. And, the fact is, you can order a 5D2 right now and get it shipped, so inventories cant be that tight are they?

One more thing actually, why do you think they announced it at all? Why do you think they are even going to put out the firmware? I mean why bother? They could have left it as is at this point, after the manual update?