Again sorry if this has already been discussed when I was away, but just wanted to ask:

All my 100 Mbps clips from the nano show this nasty "green frame" at the very beginning while on Vegas t/l.

Is it a known bug?

Hi Piotr,

I haven't experienced that problem in 9.0c (64-bit and 32-bit) not 8.0c (32-bit) or 8.1 (64-bit). I have just tried a fresh clip.

Seems like one of those Vegas problems that some suffer while others do not. Maybe its a hardware issue?

Thats spooky now I do have it???

Thanks Paul for the reply - many people on the Vegas forum have been complaining about their installations showing up black or red frames for many years now, and of course with many Vegas versions. I personally never suffered from it - neither with HDV, nor with my EX1's native mxf's. The clips from my nanoFlash are the first to show this behavior; I need to check many variables to find out when it happens, and why...

So far, I only tried the 100 Mbps long-GOP clips; I guess the method of starting nanoFlash recording may also be a factor (whether it's triggered with the button, or TC increment in the SDI signal).

Anyway, chopping off bad frames is not a big problem, but it might be annoying.

Interestingly, I'm only getting the very first frame green using Vegas 9.0c (both 32 and 64 bit), but NOT in 8.0c...

Hi Poitr,

I have sat down this morning and had a good look at various files from the nanoFLASH (different bit-rates as well as have the cache on and off – I did wonder if that was part of the problem). I hadn't realised there was a problem as I was finishing a project in Vegas 8 so hadn't really tried 9 until yesterday.

The results;

8.0c (32-bit)

No Green Frame – Works as should.

8.1 (64-bit)

No Green Frame – Works as should.

9.0c (32-bit)

Green Frame – I don’t see it in the preview at all.

9.0c (64-bit)

Green Frame – I see a green block in the preview when it is first dragged onto the time line.

I haven’t suffered from the Black nor Red frame problem either, except once with my first nano I where had Red Frames, solved now. The green frame in 9.0c (32-bit and 64-bit) is strange to say the least. My work usually involves cutting multiple clips together and having to chop of the first bit every time would become a proverbial pain in the backside. However, when playing over the green frame are you seeing it in the preview as well? I don’t think it is affecting the clip though.

This is in my opinion a problem with Vegas 9.0c not the nano. Wonder if this could be fixed?

Hi Paul,

I didn't have enough time to take a good look at it, but I fully agree this is a Vegas-specific issue, not the Nano.

I agree with you it is a pain in you know where - especially when editing a multi-camera, multi-clip project.

As yourself, I can only see green block on preview in Vegas 9.0c 64-bit; unfortunately this is the version of Vegas I use most often!

Having said that, I have done a couple of test renders of the offending clip(s), and I do NOT have the green frame in the output - regardless of the format used...

I've been wondering: is it only Paul and myself among the nanoFlash users who edit with Vegas Pro 9.0, or it so happens that the green frame problem has only affected the two of us?

Anyone?

If you can get me a clip, I'll check it on my Vegas systems.

Hi Perrone;

I extracted the very first 2 frames from a 100 Mbps clip and rendered into 50/422 mxf using 9.0c 64bit. Interestingly, the render preserved the first green frame (which is bad news - I was hoping it would vanish during render, just like it does when I render out to formats other the mxf).

Thanks for your readiness to help!

PS Just checked, and have even worse news: the rendered clip now DOES show its first frame as green block in Vegas 8.0c, where the original nanoFlash didn't (see Paul's summary above)!

Dan, Mike - it turns this IS a problem, after all :)

Getting me the already rendered file probably isn't going to help me, help you. What I wanted to see was if I opened it in something OTHER than Vegas, if it was ok.

Does it only do this for the first frame?

-P

Perrone,

I will get you an original clip soon - need to record one short enough to be able to upload.

In the meantime, I just realized the output clip I posted (2 frames) is shorter than one full GOP; made a 1 sec one - and the leading green frame is gone, even in 9.0c 64-bit.

Uff - sigh of relieve.

To answer you questions:

- yes, it's only a single frame at the very beginning
- no, it doesn't show up on other systems I was able to check (like Vegas Pro 8.0c and Edius 4.6).

Judging from how the offending frame disappears when rendered out into full, fresh GOP structure, I guess it's some combination of the nano-specific file properties, and the way Vegas Pro 9.0 decodes it.

Oh ok... looks like you've got it sorted. :)

Yes, an incomplete GOP could certainly cause problems.

Well, not quite sorted yet - having a multi-camera edit with hundreds of clips on the timeline each starting with a green frame is a nightmare, even if you can hope they will vanish after rendering!

Dear Piotr,

We will look into this.

This seems to be a Vegas 9.0 issue since it does not occur in Vegas 8.0.

We have a limited staff this week due to the holidays.

Dear Dan,

Thanks. I realize this seems to be a Vegas 9.0 problem, but since I guess you're cooperating with SCS, I'd be grateful if you brought this to their attention.

I'm doing mainly multi camera, live music performances; having each clip/take beginning with the green blocky frame can really make editing difficult...

Piotr

Dear Piotr,

I have alerted our experts.

We will test this, then report the results of our testing to Sony Creative Software.

Dear Friends,

One could download the free VLC Player, which does play our files.

This would allow one to confirm if the problem is ours or is a problem with Sony Vegas 9.0c.

Of course, we already have one indication that it may be in Sony Vegas 9.0c since we have a report that the files work fine in Sony Vegas 8.0c.

But, we are also testing this in our lab. It may be in our firmware, as we can not get our very latest firmware that we are now testing, in our lab, to fail. In other words, with our latest firmware 1.1.173 (not yet released), and Sony Vegas 9.0c, we are not seeing any green frames.

Thus, we have two conflicting pieces of information.

We are about to go back to 1.1.154, in our lab, create some files, then test them for green frames in Sony Vegas 9.0c.

Hi Guys,

I have just finished a big post job and have had a little time to do some more tests with the nanoFLASH and Vegas. I have updated the nanoFLASH to the latest firmware.

It seems that things have changed;

Vegas Pro 9.0 (in both 32-bit and 64-bit) have green frames
Vegas Pro 8.0c and 8.1 (32-bit and 64-bit respectively) have black frames (are you seeing green frames here Piotr?)

Both render out with either green or black frames (it didn’t before) so I have to delete the first clip or so. This is going to be a real PITA. I’ve only started using Vegas 9.0c on the 13th to test the problem that Piotr was experiencing as I was wrapping up a big project in 8.1 (non-nano). I have started a new production (with nano) and will go on for a year. I need to know that I can edit this footage in Vegas (don’t care which one as along as it’s one).

I do think the Vegas 9.0c is more buggy than Vegas 8.0c or 8.1. I think it is more to do with Vegas than the nano.

One could download the free VLC Player, which does play our files.

I'll download it now to test it. In XDCAM Viewer I am getting a black frame though.

Of course, we already have one indication that it may be in Sony Vegas 9.0c since we have a report that the files work fine in Sony Vegas 8.0c.

8.0c and 8.1 are now showing black frames for me.

But, we are also testing this in our lab. It may be in our firmware, as we can not get our very latest firmware that we are now testing, in our lab, to fail. In other words, with our latest firmware 1.1.173 (not yet released), and Sony Vegas 9.0c, we are not seeing any green frames.

I could try your unrealeased firmware to test it in my versions of Vegas. Hopefully it is just that and crisis adverted.

One could download the free VLC Player, which does play our files.

This would allow one to confirm if the problem is ours or is a problem with Sony Vegas 9.0c.


Okay downloaded and played the same clip that produced either black or green frames and it's fine.

UPDATE:

I have re-installed all my Vegas Pro Software’s, in case anything has changed obviously something has, as I no longer suffering the Black Frame problem in Vegas Pro 8.0c or 8.1. So I will be editing in this NLE for now, as it works as it should!

The ‘Green Frame’ problem in Vegas Pro 9.0c (32-bit and 64-bit) still remains. I don’t believe it is a nanoFLASH firmware problem as I have tested in; 1.0.112, 1.1.150, 1.1.154 and the private beta 1.1.173. I shot in Long GoP, 100Mbps, MXF, 1080/25p. The results are the same the first frame is green!

I-Frames work fine! Vegas Pro 8 doesn't support I-Frames but in 9 works fine. So I guess its 9 for I-Frames and 8 for Long GoP, what a PITA!

Dear Paul,

Thank you for your thorough testing.

(Note: I sent Paul a Private Beta of our firmware. This firmware is still undergoing testing and is not ready for general release. In any case, it is not for production use.)

We are also testing in our lab.

I can confirm Paul's findings. I only have green frames in VP 9.0c (both 32 and 64bit versions); I never had black or red frames.

Using the latest official firmware, and Long-GOP mxfs at 100-140 Mbps.

Hi,

we will be in touch with Vegas about this.
ps I've noticed that if you move around in the timeline enough that eventually the initial green frame will go to normal video.

Tommy Schell

Any news from SCS?

Unfortunately, the green frame (in V 9.0/64bit) is not the only problem; there is also a shift in video (almost 1 sec - 24 frames), and in audio (13 frames), between the original EX and nano MXFs - even in version 8.0 of Vegas (with the nano version lagging behind by the aforementioned values)!

PS Just checked in Edius, and the nano clip also starts later by almost a full second when recording simultaneously with the SxS - is this normal?

Format: 100 Mbps, 1080/25p
latest nanoFlash firmware, triggered with TC increment

Dear Dan,

I realize it's a weekend, but since I can see you're active on this forum - could you please address my above points?

Thanks a lot,

Piotr

Dear Piotr,

Concerning the nanoFlash recording starting 1 second behind the Sony camera:

I am assuming you mean when we trigger on incrementing timecode.

Yes, it would certainly be possible that we take longer than the Sony EX1/EX3 cameras to start recording.

All cameras and recording devices have a lag between the time you press the record button and when they actual start recording. Sony's lag could be shorter.

As you are most likely aware, for many types of shooting the camera is "rolled" prior to the action.

For unexpected action, for many of our bit-rates, one could use our Pre-Record Buffer.


Tommy is our liason with Sony. I will check with him on Monday.

Dear Dan,

Thanks for your answer. So the "general" lag between the nano and camera when triggering by TC increment is normal - so I thought, appreciate re-assuring.

Having said that, what still worries me is that the amount of lag in video is not the same as in audio. Suppose I record the same to both the SxS and the nano; then I put the SxS clip in one track (Vegas or Edius - have the same problem), and the nano clip - in the lower track. After I slide one of them very carefully to match the video precisely, their audio tracks are still a couple of frames apart!

Is this also normal? What I'm worried about is that - when recording the SDI-embedded audio along with the analog straight to the nano - this may produce an echo, or what others have describe as "metallic" sound in another thread...

Dear Piotr,

No, the audio out-of-sync condition is not normal.

I assume that you are working on 1.1.54.

We expect to release a Public Beta. In this firmware, we have added significant new features, and have attempted to correct this "Out of Sync" issue.

Thanks Dan - both for the answer here, and the email:)

BTW - you have sent me 2 emails; isn't one of them intended to Aaron (or was it just a mistake with names - as you are kindly mentioning my surgeries)...

Or am I not the only one after surgeries among the nanoFlash users? ;)

Piotr

Dear Piotr,

My mistake, sorry.

Yes, I was referring to your surgeries.

Dear Dan, Mike and Tommy

I'm aware you are busy with implementing new great features (just downloaded the Beta firmware), but could I kindly remain you of the problems with nano mxf clips in Vegas 9.0?

Not only do I still get green frames in the timeline, but there is also another flaw: smart rendering nano mxf clips starts properly with the message "no recompression required", but after some 10% into the timeline, it gives up saying the render is finished. Unfortunately, all I'm getting on output is audio :(

Smart-rendering 100 Mbps nano clips in Vegas 8.0 produces an exact 1:1 copy of my nano clips, and of 100 Mbps too!

Dear Piotr,

We will call Sony and discuss these issues with them.

Thanks Dan.

When discussing the problem with SCS, please ask Tommy to keep in mind that the smart-rendering problem depends on the timeline selection size. For instance, a clip of 400 MB in size smart-renders OK, the problem starts with clips of 800 MB and above... This again points to memory handling problems with mxf format!

Dear Piotr,

Thank you for the additional information.

We will provide this information to our contacts at Sony.

Sorry for cross-posting, but this really as about nanFlash acquisition format, and its NLE processing capabilities. Here is what I posted in the Vegas area of DVinfo (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/what-happens-vegas/473246-mxf-vegas-pro-9-0c-under-vista-x64.html):

Guys, I'm experiencing problems with mxf file handling in Vegas 9.0c (both 32 and 64 bit versions) under Vista x64. SCS Tech Supp cannot help, but before I do a clean OS /apps reinstallation, could you please help me by answering the following questions?

Please note: it only applies to anyone running Vegas 9.0 under Vista x64, and having access to the XDCAM EX 35 Mbps and/or NanoFlash 100 Mbps MXF clips ! This problem is not showing for me in Vegas Pro 8.0c (under XP, Vista or 7), nor in Vegas Pro 9.0c under Windows XP, Vista x86, or Windows 7...Also, even with VP 9.0/Vista x64 combination, I don't have such issues with any other format!

1. Did you have VP 9.0 -64bit installer procedure failing at the very last step, with the "your system has not been changed" message?

2. When playing back a long mxf timeline for the first time, does your RAM usage (as reported in the Task Manager) increase at the rate of some 0.1 GB/sec (e.g. 3.0, 3.1, ..., 7.99, Slowdown, freeze, CRASH)?

3. When smart-rendering 35 Mbps mxf, does your RAM usage increase as per point 2 above?

4. When smart-rendering a 100 Mpbs 4:2:2 mxf file larger than some 0.5GB, do you get proper results (i.e. a 100 Mbps mxf file), or do you just get a clip with audio only?

Well, I guess answers to the above questions would help me tremendously...

Thanks,

Piotr

I encountered the same problems with the green frames in the start of every mxf-file regardless of the bitrate. I already discussed this with Tommy Schell per PM and he was very considerate with my problem, which shows to be also a problem for other people.
It is the combination with Sony Vegas 9.0c. I do not have the green frames in 9.0b.
Tommy noticed me that they are in touch with Sony about this matter, which is good to hear as I have the feeling that Sony sooner listens to them as to a few Nanoflash users

There is also a slight difference in lenght with the longer files when I compare them with the sames files recorded at the SxS cards in the camera.
When recording MPG files the video is even more delayed to the audio track than MXF files and quite a lot delay according to the SxS files.
I find the mpg video delay just out of the acceptable range, however simply to solve in the NLE to one's taste.
As mpg recording is a recent addition to the NF the mpg functionality could improve. I'm curious when this is going to be done.

It is also difficult for me to see a better quality picture when I compare longGOP MXF50 and even MXF100 with the Sony MPG4 SxS frames, Maybe with QT files this is different because I only use Vegas and have no QT functionality.

During a recent recording from a dance show out of a pro-SDI switcher I encountered artifacts in the files from the NanoFlash, which did not show up in the backup recording device files. Could be a problem with bad cabling (always use certified HDSDI cables!!) however I feel that it has to do more with the NF.

I work with version 1.1.154, I have not tried version Beta 1.5.31 yet (I have a 'Beta Trauma')

Dear Piotr,

Thank you for the additional information.

We will provide this information to our contacts at Sony.

Dear Dan

Any news on the leading green frame in long-Gop clips, or occassional black frame in I-frame ones, when put on Vegas 9.0c timeline?

Just installed Vegas 9.0d.

Unfortunately, the green frame problem (long-GoP) and black frame problem (I-frame) are still there.

when you load them in 9.0b and smartrender them (if possible) what happens then to the green frames in 9.0c/d?

Ron, let's stick to the 9.0d for a while.

The answer is two-fold:

1. Smart-rendering is now possible (which is good - see my post about on what happened before)

2. Unlike in 8.0c, smart-rendering using the 50 Mbps 4:2:2 template now produces exactly that - a 50 Mbps file.This is disappointing; I was hoping SCS would fix smart-rendering so that it works exactly like in the 8.0c (i.e. you can preserve the 100 Mbps bit rate). Of course, this has never been explicitly or formally supported (after all, the template is CBR 50) - but still a pity. The best workflow scenario would be to preserve the higher bitrates as long as only possible (certainly through smart-rendering)

3. Of course, the smart-rendered file doesn't show the leading green frame any more, but this is nothing new (also before, in 9.0c, after any kind of rendering, I could get rid of the green frame). This however is not a solution to the problem: as I said, the idea of acquiring in high bitrates is to keep that bitrate as long as possible into the edits, and believe me - editing a multi camera, multi take, multi event project with all single take / event starting with a green frame can be a nightmare!

I had earlier mxf files from other recording devices and they don't have the green frames. Why is it that the nano-files do this?

Dan & Tommy,

Any news from SCS about the green frames in long-GOP / black frames in I-frame clips from the nano?

It's been a while now :(

Dear Dan & Tommy,

Just wanted to update you on something you probably know by now - but here it goes, anyway:

- while the HD mxf clips have the above mentioned problems with green (Long-GoP) or black (I-frame) frames, the SD IMX clips behave perfectly on Vegas Pro 9.0d timeline. No green/black frames, and very easy to edit.

Please update us whether we can count on a similar behavior of nanoFlash HD mfx; have SCS actually comment on the problem (persistent with all minor versions of VP 9.0)? Any hope for fixing this in the future Vegas releases?

It's so frustrating to work with nanoFlash clips, while the basic (i.e. lower-quality) SxS clips display OK in this otherwise great NLE...

TIA,

Piotr

Hi,

With brief testing it appears Vegas 9.0d fixed a problem we were having w/ our I-Frame only files, which in 9.0c would produce a black frame every 15 to 30 seconds. 9.0d does not exhibit this problem that we can see.

However the initial green frame problem (1st couple of frames of a clip) with our long-Gop files is still there. We have been in communication with Vegas and are still waiting for news of a fix for this.

Tommy

Tommy, Dan and Mike,

Can we Vegas users count on CD seriously working on this problem with SCS? It's been more than half a year now...

Dear Piotr,

Sony Creative Software is responsible for Sony Vegas.

As far as I know, there is nothing wrong with the files we create.

Our files play fine in other editors.

Maybe you could try this test:

1. Render a file whose first frame is Green.

2. Place the rendered file on the Vegas timeline.

3. Check if any frames are missing.

Personally, I do not know why Vegas is showing the first frame is green. I do not know what they are trying to indicate by the green frame. I have searched in the Help system to no avail.

And we have reported the issue to Sony.

When I see a green frame in the timeline,the frame shows properly in the Preview Window.

Dan,

I know it's SCS who's responsible for Vegas, but it's some strange problem in the nano L-GoP structure/header that causes Vegas to display the green frames. I believe CD should press SCS to find and correct this.

Yes, when I render such a clip, it sometimes happens that the leading frame(s) are missing (display black) in the output file.

Piotr, have you been able to have Vegas "hear" the sound from your nF files? If so, how?