I'm going to DSLR this year and have two Canon 60D's. For my third camera should I get a conventional video camera like a Canon Vixia HF S20 or another 60D?

Hi Geoffrey,

I'm going to DSLR this year and have two Canon 60D's. For my third camera should I get a conventional video camera like a Canon Vixia HF S20 or another 60D?

Do you shoot alone or do you have help? Do you plan on delivering short-form or long-form programs?

60D, hands down. The quality will not match and you will notice it and I think your couples will too. We shoot on two 7D's and are getting a third to make our vids that much better.

Down paddle backwards getting a video cam. Embrace the change and go full steam ahead.

I was thinking the same thing, adding a version of the Panny 700 to GH models. I got one from Amazon, did one test clip of my dining room at nighttime and sent it back the next day. Part of the clip's quality seemed pretty darn close, and then I got to where the cam blew out the white woodwork which was completely unacceptable. If you decide to try the Vixia, get it from somewhere that has a liberal return policy. Try it out on the worst scenario and then see what you think of it.

It depends a bit on the product you deliver, but I'm guessing you deliver or have the option to deliver the full ceremony, toasts, etc? If that's the case, then I would make that 3rd camera a continuous-record variation to make your life waaayyy easier. We use one strictly for wide angle shots and cutaways for the documentary edits and it's totally worthwhile. Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you won't be able to match the footage to your 60D footage. We match to 7D's all the time and I guarantee you that no bride (or videographer for that matter) would ever know.

Weddings are live, one-shot-to-get it events and it's really useful to have at least one continuous-record camera in operation. Just my opinion.

I also match 5d2 footage with my XLH1 HDV and no couple has noticed. I notice that it's a little softer.

It's so nice to be able to run multiple XLR audio sources in, not have to worry about sync (or pushing record on a separate recorder).

Geoffrey, a lot depends on how you are shooting, but my advice would be to make sure you have at least one continuously recording camera.

Are you shooting alone or do you have assistants? DSLR's are almost useless as unattended cameras because of the 4bg limit. Normally my wide camera is recording for 12 minutes before the bride even arrives, and it is often in a location that I cannot reach easily or quickly during a ceremony. Even if you have 3 shooters, consider that you'll need to be able to communicate clearly and effectively (but also silently) during the ceremony to make sure you stagger your recordings correctly.

I have one shooting assistant and one assistant who would rather not mess with a camera. My product is short-form, cinema style, but in the past, I've offered to put the whole ceremony (and speeches sometimes) as a menu item on their DVD. Some brides liked to have this option.

I already bought the Canon video camera but was thinking about exchanging it for another 60D body. I was thinking after the ceremony it would be nice to have one body dedicated to the Blackbird steady-cam and that would still leave two cameras to cover the reception.

I don't know. More undecided than ever.

I shoot DSLR all by myself and use 2-3 camera's during the ceremony. I have no problem with the 12 minute limit and don't understand all the hysteria surrounding it.

Hi Travis,

Exactly my opinion. I'm able to match up an Canon HV30 very closely. It actually matches my T2i's better than it matched my XHA1. I don't run it at receptions, but instead as a catch-all angle for the ceremony. I sell a full-doc version so its important to get it all. If I just offered short-form or had an assistant I wouldn't need it.

It depends a bit on the product you deliver, but I'm guessing you deliver or have the option to deliver the full ceremony, toasts, etc? If that's the case, then I would make that 3rd camera a continuous-record variation to make your life waaayyy easier. We use one strictly for wide angle shots and cutaways for the documentary edits and it's totally worthwhile. Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you won't be able to match the footage to your 60D footage. We match to 7D's all the time and I guarantee you that no bride (or videographer for that matter) would ever know.

Weddings are live, one-shot-to-get it events and it's really useful to have at least one continuous-record camera in operation. Just my opinion.

Hi Geoffrey,

Three DSLR's is a good option if you want to get moving camera shots during the ceremony. I have an HV30 running on wide, two static T2i with 80-200 2.8 MF lenses that I reposition throughout the ceremony and one T2i that I use for the processional on a monopod, for creative moving shots during the ceremony and a then for a glidecam exit.


I have one shooting assistant and one assistant who would rather not mess with a camera. My product is short-form, cinema style, but in the past, I've offered to put the whole ceremony (and speeches sometimes) as a menu item on their DVD. Some brides liked to have this option.

I already bought the Canon video camera but was thinking about exchanging it for another 60D body. I was thinking after the ceremony it would be nice to have one body dedicated to the Blackbird steady-cam and that would still leave two cameras to cover the reception.

I don't know. More undecided than ever.

I shoot DSLR all by myself and use 2-3 camera's during the ceremony. I have no problem with the 12 minute limit and don't understand all the hysteria surrounding it.

I'm a fan of your work. Would you mind giving a rough idea how you'd cover a typical 20 min ceremony plus seating of parents and processional?? I'm trying to wrap my head around keeping 3 cameras going plus moving a couple of them.

Thanks!

I'm a fan of your work. Would you mind giving a rough idea how you'd cover a typical 20 min ceremony plus seating of parents and processional?? I'm trying to wrap my head around keeping 3 cameras going plus moving a couple of them.

Thanks!

hey Geoffrey. Thanks for the compliment. I have 2 cams locked on tripods and one roaming for slider/reaction shots. No big secrets here..sorry. For a 20 minute ceremony, the B&G pretty much stand in the same place the entire time so a closeups are easy to do from an unmanned tripod shot. Have one center aisle and one locked on the bride. I have more difficulty solo when the ceremony is only a few minutes long. Not enough time to get creative. In my opinion, I find that filming weddings are too much work for one person, but not enough work for 2 people.

Hi Travis,

Exactly my opinion. I'm able to match up an Canon HV30 very closely. It actually matches my T2i's better than it matched my XHA1. I don't run it at receptions, but instead as a catch-all angle for the ceremony. I sell a full-doc version so its important to get it all. If I just offered short-form or had an assistant I wouldn't need it.

Especially given how cheap you can get a small continuous-record camera for. To me it seems like a no-brainer to have one if you plan on delivering any sort of documentary edits. You probably already know this but you can use compressor in FCS to convert the footage to match the 24p frame-rate of the 7D or T2i. Not sure that everyone does this and that can make the footage look different.

Hey Travis,

...You probably already know this but you can use compressor in FCS to convert the footage to match the 24p frame-rate of the 7D or T2i. Not sure that everyone does this and that can make the footage look different.

I do - mostly because you couldn't use the HV30 clips with the XHA1's footage in a multicam sequence unless the frame rates match up - though the HV30 is shooting 24p its wrapped in a 60i container. The HV40 fixed that.

For a better looking conversion (fewer edge artifacts) I use JES:

Home Page of JES (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeschot/home.html)

But the workflow isn't a smooth. Below is a comparison of Compressor (on the left) and JES at 400%.

I also I have a Compressor droplet linked below if anyone needs it - converts 24p/60i to native 24p via Reverse Telecine.

http://tinyurl.com/45akmx3

I thought most wedding videographers used 30p.

Hi Geoffrey,

I thought most wedding videographers used 30p.

Many do. I'd be surprised if it wasn't split pretty evenly between 30p, 60i and 24p in the states. I think its a personal decision - you go with what works best with your shooting style and aesthetic tastes. Obviously slow motion isn't going to look as good with a progressive format unless you're shooting 720/60. Ever since 2000 I've been de-interlacing my mpeg2 files, and when I could shoot 24p I did, mostly to gain the extra stop of light. I stopped using slow motion at the same time because it just wasn't practical. I think it made me a better shooter - not having the ability to slow it down in post. If I really need slow mo for a certain sequence I can send it to Motion and it looks ok, but its time consuming.

I'm still struggling a little with some of this so I did my own tests. I also posted this on the Canon 60D forum.

I shot 4 very short clips at different settings to try and determine what is going to work best for my upcoming wedding season.

Questions: I can't find in the operator's manual, but the 1280x720 60 setting in the Canon 60D seems to be 60 progressive. I took a frame and put it in Photoshop and it appears to be progressive. But when I render in Vegas, there isn't a 60P setting - at least in "main concept AVC/AAC mp4. So, I rendered as 29.970 progressive and it came out fine. Is there a way to shoot 60i in this camera?

Does anyone have an opinion as to which setting produces the nicest camera movement? 24P looks the worse to me, with 30P in second place and 60P looks the smoothest. Is there a reason people on this forum always recommend 24P and 30P? Do they think it's more important to have that extra resolution of 1920 x 1080 and have choppy movement?

Is there a best setting if output to SD DVD's is most probable outcome?

Isn't 60P the best setting that would allow me to do decent slow-motion (in After Effects/Twixor) every once in a while?

Test 01 (1080 30P)
Camera setting
1920 x 1080 30
1/60th shutter speed
Vegas project setting
HD 1080-30p
Render setting
MainConcept AVC/AAC mp4
Video 29.970fps, 1920x1080 Progressive 20 Mbps
Uploaded to YouTube
YouTube - 30P test

Test 02 (1080 24P)
Camera setting
1920 x 1080 24
1/60th shutter speed
Vegas project setting
HD 1080-24p
Render setting
MainConcept AVC/AAC mp4
Video 23.976fps, 1920x1080 Progressive 20 Mbps
Uploaded to YouTube
YouTube - 24P 1/60

Test 03 (same as Test 02 except for shutter speed)
Camera setting
1920 x 1080 24
1/50th shutter speed
Vegas project setting
HD 1080-24p
Render setting
MainConcept AVC/AAC mp4
Video 23.976fps, 1920x1080 Progressive 20 Mbps
Uploaded to YouTube
YouTube - 24p test 50th.mp4

Test 04 (720 60P)
Camera setting
1280 x 720 60
1/60th shutter speed
Vegas project setting
HD 720-60P
Render setting
MainConcept AVC/AAC mp4
Video 23.976fps, 1920x1080 Progressive 20 Mbps
Uploaded to YouTube
YouTube - 60p

Questions: I can't find in the operator's manual, but the 1280x720 60 setting in the Canon 60D seems to be 60 progressive. I took a frame and put it in Photoshop and it appears to be progressive. But when I render in Vegas, there isn't a 60P setting - at least in "main concept AVC/AAC mp4. So, I rendered as 29.970 progressive and it came out fine. Is there a way to shoot 60i in this camera?

The T2i can only shoot progressive.

Does anyone have an opinion as to which setting produces the nicest camera movement?

60p will give the smoothest motion rendition by far. The higher the frame rate, the smoother the motion will be.

Is there a reason people on this forum always recommend 24P and 30P?

People recommend 24p because it is considered to give "the film look" of 35mm motion pictures. People recommend 30p because it is close to 24p, but still mixes perfectly with other 60hz (NTSC) sources such as 60i or 60p. For example, you can easily drop a 60p clip on a 30p timeline, and the NLE will just drop every second frame of the 60p clip.

Do they think it's more important to have that extra resolution of 1920 x 1080 and have choppy movement?

Yes, they do put too much weight on the spatial resolution. What they are not taking into account is the effect that temporal resolution (resolution over time) has on percieved sharpness and detail, espescially when shooting moving objects. 720p60 records roughly as many pixels per second as 1080p30 and therefore can show just as much or even more detail that 1080p30 in certain situations.

Is there a best setting if output to SD DVD's is most probable outcome?

No. The camera has a SD mode but it is smaller than NTSC DV. Just shoot and edit in HD, then figure out the down-conversion method which you feel gives you the best results when going to DVD.

Isn't 60P the best setting that would allow me to do decent slow-motion (in After Effects/Twixor) every once in a while?

Yes. Although you don't need to use Twixtor/AE to get good slow motion from 60p. Simply slow it down to 50% in your NLE (re-interpreting in Premiere is my preferred method for doing slow motion - I change the frame rate from 50fps to 25fps) and you now have perfect, smooth slow motion footage. Of course, if you want to go slower than that then Twixtor/AE will help.

I use a 5D II, T2i, and small camcorders (Canon HF11's). I wouldn't go without the small camcorders or a regular video camera, since it can keep recording beyond the 12minute or so limits that DSLR camcorders have. I just place them in various places, and keep them running. I check up on them every now and then to see if I need to change anything.

Then, you're free to move around with the DSLR's and do close-ups, extra wide, various angles, etc. Being able to have a video running till it reaches the 30 gig or so is just fantastic. ... and they're easy to review and analyze as far as which files you want to keep.