Steve Mullen, great post! I agree with you.

When Red first came out I hated it. It was too buggy and had too many problems. Now, I really enjoy working with it. The MX with latest firmware is a fantastic tool, and most important of all I can use it on a film set and it behaves like a camera should.

I have shot the new F3 three times now on three very different shoots. On a low light music video with fireworks it was a great picture, and it was lightweight for handheld with a focus puller - it worked... but there is a 5600k button on the side of the camera... for what reason!?!?! it is always getting bumped by the grip when he takes the camera from me.... bad design.

The next shoot was a mid budget TVC for a hotel. The camera was nice sometime, but having the monitors and viewfinders bolted on, and of course the nanoflash...we would have been better off with a Red. It would have been easier to move with (all slider and jib shots), and we would have not had to worry about powering all of the accessories.

Latest shoot, for a TV Series. We had been using my PDW-700, but the director bought his own F3 and KiPro. The tripod mounted interviews were okay, but the handheld was a disaster. Long takes, trying to see focus (which is impossibly on the F3's monitor) and terrible weight balance. It was a disaster.

Of course Sony and Panasonic will keep on bringing out cameras, with new features and keep the hype going. But I am a bit sick of it. I bought a PDW-700 and had to pay thousands to activate SD recording! A few months later, the PDW-800 comes out and the Production Managers are only interested in the 800 model number.

I have the EX3 and love it. But have to add a NanoFlash to it.... and it cannot record in SD (which is a very real request for day to day broadcast).

The new FS100... the viewfinder does not tilt down (try interviewing a tall person with that!) and it's hdmi only!

I am keeping my money in my pocket until Sony starts delivering real world workable cameras. Or until Red Epic delivers, or Canon or Nikon make a camera that has actually been tested in the field, and not just in an office.

I have had years of working with good Arri, Aaton, Panavision cameras. Why can't the Japanese copy the basic layout of these cameras... it's not rocket science.

I agree with Steve Mullens post: 'IMHO, either buy the best cheap camera HD-DSLR or buy a RED if you want to make films. Everything in between is a money and time waster'.

Not trying to speak for Mark, but I'd go with any film camera because the controls needed for photography are all present and where they should be.

Try the FS100 without the handgrip. Where is the start/stop button? The AF100 has a handgrip on the side which, because of the cameras weight, is a pain. Worse, it wants to tilt to the side. And, the VG10 with the bundled 18200 tilts forward.

I simply want today's wonderful electronic internals packaged into a film camera body. I want an 6X or 8X zoom lens that functions like ALL film camera lenses. In other words, the exact opposite of everything in the E-mount line.

And, I don't want to buy more gadgets to mount on the camera to try to get it useable.

This thread is getting weird. People are complaining the FS100 isn't comparable to a RED or a 35mm film camera - no kidding!

For those of you who aren't happy with the specs, or the layout, or whatever else about the FS100 - don't buy it! And it isn't going to change anytime soon. If it doesn't work for you, then look elsewhere. But coming to this forum and wailing about the camera's shortcomings isn't doing any good. It doesn't have an ND filter, it doesn't have HD/SDI, it isn't 4K - WE KNOW!!!
It is what it is - buy it, or don't - then, please, move on.

And as far as not buying any camera betwen a DSLR and a RED - seriously? Watch me make real money with this camera. Oh, I can make it profitable. I've made money with every camera I've owned.

My god, it's a $5,000 camera! What do you expect?? Way too much, obviously. You don't think it's worth $5,000? Fine, don't buy it. There are other alternatives out there. But let the rest of us decide for ourselves if it's worth the price.

I mean, only a handful of people have actually worked with this camera. How can you really know how good or bad this camera will be without personal experience? Here's a novel idea - withhold judgment until you've worked with one.

Strong words from someone who tried to kill Harry Potter! :)

This thread is getting weird. People are complaining the FS100 isn't comparable to a RED or a 35mm film camera - no kidding!

For those of you who aren't happy with the specs, or the layout, or whatever else about the FS100 - don't buy it! And it isn't going to change anytime soon. If it doesn't work for you, then look elsewhere. But coming to this forum and wailing about the camera's shortcomings isn't doing any good. It doesn't have an ND filter, it doesn't have HD/SDI, it isn't 4K - WE KNOW!!!
It is what it is - buy it, or don't - then, please, move on.

And as far as not buying any camera betwen a DSLR and a RED - seriously? Watch me make real money with this camera. Oh, I can make it profitable. I've made money with every camera I've owned.

My god, it's a $5,000 camera! What do you expect?? Way too much, obviously. You don't think it's worth $5,000? Fine, don't buy it. There are other alternatives out there. But let the rest of us decide for ourselves if it's worth the price.

I mean, only a handful of people have actually worked with this camera. How can you really know how good or bad this camera will be without personal experience? Here's a novel idea - withhold judgment until you've worked with one.

I agree with all of the above.

Strong words from someone who tried to kill Harry Potter! :)

Huh?
This one is like an airplane -it went way over my head. Sorry, I"m not a follower of Harry Potter.

Sorry just a joke about your name looking very very vaguely similar to the villain Voldemort.

Heh, gotcha. Did a little Google on Lord Voldemort.

Would it surprise you that Voldemort and I look alike?

T Here's a novel idea - withhold judgment until you've worked with one.

Well, some people can't even bother to walk over to the Sony booth at NAB and take a look at the camera when they live right there in LAS VEGAS!! But then they seem to have endless amounts of time and energy to bash the camera and speculate on it's performance. That speaks volumes right there.

I don't think they would even let me in NAB unless it is open to the public. Glen, I knew it! :)

This thread is getting weird. People are complaining the FS100 isn't comparable to a RED or a 35mm film camera - no kidding! It is what it is - buy it, or don't - then, please, move on.

A thread on any camera is not confined to those who love it. In fact, I've never seen a thread on any product that didn't include many many negative posts.

I think my original judgement made when Sony released the full description of the FS100 on Sunday night of NAB week have been fully vindicated. It's simply not as good as CAMCORDER as the AF100.

Moreover, it's really not worth my time to deal with either the FS100 or AF100 because both will be non-starters when Scarlet ships. And, if Sony does even a reasonable job with a re-spin of the VG10, It will be just as good as the FS100 at half the price -- for those of us that prefer 30p over 24p.

But, I'll hang until Phillips report is out.

This thread is getting weird. People are complaining the FS100 isn't comparable to a RED or a 35mm film camera - no kidding!
.

Nah, it's mostly just one poster who said he won't even visit Sony NAB stand because nothing is there, but he spends all time here on Sony forum about FS100 and F3. Just ignore him.

FS100 is going to be a huge seller among general consumers.

Nah, it's mostly just one poster who said he won't even visit Sony NAB stand because nothing is there, but he spends all time here on Sony forum about FS100 and F3. Just ignore him.

FS100 is going to be a huge seller among general consumers.

I agree with all of the above.

An "ignore posts" button for certain users would be a great addition to the forum, I'm getting fed up with the stalkers of doom around here

Moreover, it's really not worth my time to deal with either the FS100 or AF100 because both will be non-starters when Scarlet ships.

Guess you don't have any projects in the foreseeable future then. I'm sure Scarlet will be good, but when??? I can't put my life on hold waiting for Scarlet. Red's marketing is very clever. Lets announce an incredible low cost camera, available very soon. That's stops people buying the competition. That was in April 2008! then build up their hopes of an imminent release (NAB 09) only to dash them again with further delays, then as customers start to walk away build up hopes again with news of working prototypes (NAB 10), only to delay again and thus it continues. Now we hear there are lens problems for the fixed lens version. If I had held off since 2008 I'd have gone bust by now.

Is the FS100 perfect, no it is not. Is it a great camera for the money, yes IMHO it is. The AF101 may have built in ND's, but it doesn't have a Super35mm sensor and you only have to look at Phil Blooms side by side to see how big a difference that makes, foreshortening the image and increasing DoF. Can you add ND's to the FS100? Yes you can (and there will be E-Mount to Nikon (an possibly PL) adapters with 4 ND positions behind the lens coming). Can you change the sensor in the AF101? Very fast, very wide lenses are expensive.

I feel both Steve and Ben's frustration.

These cameras are all just tools that most of us here use to make a living. Firstly I want that tool to be reliable, usable and ergonomic. Little flaws become very irritating when in daily use under tight time pressures.

Sony have done the leg work designing a great sensor and all the internal electronics, why is it so hard to design an ergonomic casing? Companies, including Sony have been doing that for years! I have an old Video 8 camcorder from the 90s which has superior ergonomics than the F3 (and by the looks of it the FS100 although I will reserve judgment until I get hold of one). Why are ergonomics no longer deemed important? Should we complain about this? Of course we should! Otherwise nothing will change. These are professional tools and should be designed to meet professional requirements.

If you are comfortable using workarounds no one is stopping you from doing that but these boards are the perfect place to vent frustrations so that the manufacturers can read them, I know many do. JVC appear to be the ones nailing the ergonomics at the moment but lag behind on the sensor technology.

I'd love to see an affordable large sensor camera designed from the outside in. A little like a budget Alexa. That would sell by the thousand. Until then I'm sticking with my very ergonomic PMW350 and hiring if the job requires the oh-so-fashionable "shallow depth of field."

I can't put my life on hold waiting for Scarlet. Red's marketing is very clever. Lets announce an incredible low cost camera, available very soon. That's stops people buying the competition. That was in April 2008.

I second Alister on that. If Steve considers Sony's marketing BS, how should we call the Red's marketing of Scarlet?

Just compare that to what Convergent Design have done recently: while constantly supporting and perfecting their nanoFlash, they were working silently on the Gemini... No hype, no marketing declarations intended to stop people from buying the competing Aja's Ninja's etc. Until the revolutionary product is almost ready, and will hit the market soon after the announcement!

I feel both Steve and Ben's frustration.

These cameras are all just tools that most of us here use to make a living. Firstly I want that tool to be reliable, usable and ergonomic. Little flaws become very irritating when in daily use under tight time pressures.

Sony have done the leg work designing a great sensor and all the internal electronics, why is it so hard to design an ergonomic casing? Companies, including Sony have been doing that for years! I have an old Video 8 camcorder from the 90s which has superior ergonomics than the F3 (and by the looks of it the FS100 although I will reserve judgment until I get hold of one). Why are ergonomics no longer deemed important? Should we complain about this? Of course we should! Otherwise nothing will change. These are professional tools and should be designed to meet professional requirements.

If you are comfortable using workarounds no one is stopping you from doing that but these boards are the perfect place to vent frustrations so that the manufacturers can read them, I know many do. JVC appear to be the ones nailing the ergonomics at the moment but lag behind on the sensor technology.

I'd love to see an affordable large sensor camera designed from the outside in. A little like a budget Alexa. That would sell by the thousand. Until then I'm sticking with my very ergonomic PMW350 and hiring if the job requires the oh-so-fashionable "shallow depth of field."

Who says the casing isn't ergonomic? You? I say it is. Who's correct? It's all subjective. You may hate the design, I may love it. That goes to the "you can't design one camera to do it all." You certainly can't design one that makes everybody happy.

Again, bitching about it isn't going to change it - it will be manufactured and shipped exactly as you see it. Is that not good enough for you? Then move on to the next camera. It's really that simple.
Plus, it would help if you actually had time with the camera before you critiqued it. That's why I trust the opinions of Alister, Doug, Phil, Dennie and Nigel - they've worked with the FS100. I can ask them questions and they'd have an informed opinion.

Speaking of JVC, I didn't buy the new HM700 because I wanted a camera with full raster 1920x1080 chips. But I don't hang around the JVC forums whining about it. What good would that do? I recognized the features (or lack thereof) the camera had, and moved on.

Or, let's turn this around - how about that Alexa? What a disaster! Sure, it takes great video, but my god! that price! If only Arri sold it for $10,000 instead of $80,000, they'd have my business. They could sell so many more if only they dropped the price. What a marketing disaster that camera is. And the weight and complexity - what was Arri thinking? And now Sony has a camera that does 8K! Arri is so screwed! (Of course, I've never actually held one or worked with one, but I read about it on the internet.)

It all depends on your point of view, my friend. Either a camera is a good production tool for you, or it isn't. If it isn't, well....

The Alexa is aimed at a demanding market, camera people who tend to operate in certain ways because it works. It's being used on many high end TV dramas, but people are also using it on documentaries. If it continues to do well depend on how well the competition holds up to working in that environment. The high costs tend to indicate that they're going for a smaller market, with demands on quality control and build. It's not for everyone, but the targeted people seem to be liking it.

Like I told Doug, I really wish Juan Martinez didn't tell me the FS100 will be shipping in late July. I had seen on a UK vendor a May shipping date. I figured I'd wait till then to pick up the camera. Then I'm hearing as late as August for release. So I found a good deal on the AF100. I'm not necessarily stuck with the AF100 but I'd lose money selling it off right now and some extra usability that is really nice to have. There's no way I want to go back to using a DSLR while trying to switch to Sony. To hard to switch out in the middle of my event season. I'll have to join the group at the end of the year. Sigh, Thanks Juan Martinez. A potential FS100 user that has to buy next year during the slow season.

Like many others I have been waiting for Scarlet. In fact, the Epic-S would get my money right now. But it's not available and neither is Scarlet. I think it will be another 12 months before the new Reds trickle down to the general populace! Red have had a working Scarlet model for six months now, yet there is no footage. That is very strange. As a doc maker the Scarlet would suit me perfectly.

BUT THE FS-100 is here .... now! Abelcine just took my deposit which I would love to have given Red.

Even though I plan my projects up to a year away I have to know the camera I need will be in my hands!

.
Plus, it would help if you actually had time with the camera before you critiqued it. That's why I trust the opinions of Alister, Doug, Phil, Dennie and Nigel - they've worked with the FS100. I can ask them questions and they'd have an informed opinion.


Glen, please reread my post, I specifically point out that I'm not judging the FS100 until I've used it. I have used the F3.

Who says the casing isn't ergonomic? You? I say it is. Who's correct? It's all subjective. You may hate the design, I may love it. That goes to the "you can't design one camera to do it all." You certainly can't design one that makes everybody happy.


Ergonomics are subjective to some extent and yes, one camera will not suit every job but I am yet to meet a professional cameraman who thinks the F3 is a good ergonomic design. Absolute essentials like a good VF support have been left for third parties to salvage. How do you hand hold it without adding on 3rd partly accessories?

My comment about a budget Alexa is perfectly fair. I see no reason why F3/FS100 internals could not fit in a body similar to the JVC HM750 without adding more than a few K to the cost. That's what I'd like to see. If you are happy with the cameras that are already out then buy one and let me get on with my moaning :)

Now please can we stop the personal attacks, it's only a camera.

The Alexa is aimed at a demanding market, camera people who tend to operate in certain ways because it works. It's being used on many high end TV dramas, but people are also using it on documentaries. If it continues to do well depend on how well the competition holds up to working in that environment. The high costs tend to indicate that they're going for a smaller market, with demands on quality control and build. It's not for everyone, but the targeted people seem to be liking it.

Brian, I was being sarcastic to prove a point.
Obviously the Alexa is a very good camera. My point was, even as good as it is, you can find faults with the camera. And you are correct, it fits into a small niche, but it's a success at filling that niche.
Maybe the FS100 will fill its own niche?

I suspected you were, but yes, I'm sure camera crews can find points with the Alexa that could do with improvement.

I expect many people will use the FS100 as a module and come up with their own rig based on 3rd party manufacturers. In some respects, it a looks an easier mechanical base to start from than the F3.

Ergonomics are subjective to some extent and yes, one camera will not suit every job but I am yet to meet a professional cameraman who thinks the F3 is a good ergonomic design. Absolute essentials like a good VF support have been left for third parties to salvage. How do you hand hold it without adding on 3rd partly accessories?

My comment about a budget Alexa is perfectly fair. I see no reason why F3/FS100 internals could not fit in a body similar to the JVC HM750 without adding more than a few K to the cost. That's what I'd like to see. If you are happy with the cameras that are already out then buy one and let me get on with my moaning :)

Now please can we stop the personal attacks, it's only a camera.

I trust your judgements on the F3. Again, if the F3 doesn't suit your needs, don't buy it. Or buy it and live with its shortcomings.

I understand you want the handling and form factor of a JVC HM750. I agree, it'd make one heck of a package. But, this is what the FS100 is. Take it or leave it. Then, wait for another manufacturer to build the better camera for you.

There's nothing personal in my "attacks," I don't think. But I do wish some of you will recognize the FS100 for what it is, and not damn it for what it isn't.

As far as moaning about the camera - do you see a subject matter in this website for the AF100? No? Do you know why?
It's because too many trolls came onto the site complaining about a camera they never had even touched. The false info being spewed forth was making the thread unreadable and unmanageable. Therefore, it was shut down.

I don't want this thread to share the same fate. I want this forum to stay open, so we can glean any new info we can on the camera.
If you have any relevant, usable info based upon your hands-on experiences with the FS100, please post your thoughts. Share your experiences with those of us without.
If you have concerns about the camera, voice them. But recognize that most of us have heard it all, and it gets old.

I don't mean to offend, but there's so much whining on this forum that I'm close to just abandoning it. And I really am looking for good, usable info on the FS100, because I am a potential customer.

Mike, my comments aren't directed at you, but to everybody in this forum. I quoted you because it was relevant to my "rant." If I offended you, I do apologise, it certainly is not my intention.

And I really am looking for good, usable info on the FS100, because I am a potential customer.

Glen, apologies if my opinions came across as overly negative. I own and use cameras from Sony, Panasonic, Canon and JVC and they all have their place and their compromises.

What I would like to add to the box of tools is a lightweight, large sensor camera with top-notch image quality. I was hoping the FS100 would be it but it looks like it's outer design does not live up to it's internals. I won't know for sure until I get my hands on one in two weeks but for the reasons already mentioned, I don't think it will work for me. I hope that Sony and others will read these forums and their next cameras will benefit from the opinions expressed here. I would like to see something designed more as a ground up camcorder and less as an improvement over DSLRs when used for video.

Mike, have you checked out the comparison videos posted by Philip Bloom? Really great stuff, and he outlines the good and bad with each camera:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-avchd-nex-fs100/495018-upcoming-hands-comparison-f3-fs100-af100-philip-bloom.html

He agrees with you in many ways - the FS100 does have awkward control placement. Kudos to your judgement call on that ;-) (Eh, what do I know?) And the F3 doesn't have the best form factor.
Still, it seems to make up for that in the incredible images.
After toying with my VG10, I am wanting to buy a large sensor pro camera. Pricewise, the choice is now between the FS100 and AF100. And it's a tough choice.

You would want the FS100 as a shoulder cam? Keep in mind that its small size to some extent will allow you to build it into whatever size or form factor you may prefer. The FS100 as it is (I have held it) is not a shoulder cam or an SLR. I prefer this because it means I can break it down and put a very small lightweight camera on the a small car mount or mount it inside of a car instead of of a car where other cameras would have to be on the outside, and that goes for shooting in any kind of small space. The F3 is not large, but the FS100 is likely about 1/3 its volume. You can always add on weight or ergonomic attachments, but you cannot usually remove them from larger camcorders.

When you think about it, the difference is quite amazing even just in terms of power requirements as well. Alexa/RED batteries are about $300 and ~1.5lbs per hour of battery life. F3 batteries are about $100 and 0.3lbs per hour, and FS100 batteries are about $16 and <0.1lbs per hour. That means for a full 10hr day of exteriors on a RED/Alexa you need about $3000 of batteries that weigh 15lbs, for F3 $1000 of batteries that weigh 3lbs, and for the FS100, you only need about $160 worth of batteries that weigh 1lb. This doesnt even account for the fact non-sony brand batteries in the same mount would allow you to run the FS100 for 10hrs straight on one $50 1lb battery.

Thanks, Noah. As I get older, I appreciate the trend to lighter cameras. I didn't think of the battery costs. That's quite a lot of money saved with the FS100.

I found the battery life on the FS100 quite amazing. When I picked up the camera in the morning the batter was flat. I charged it in the car for about an hour on the way to the shoot. That 40% charged battery then lasted for the rest of the day, probably 3 to 4 hours of filming.

You would want the FS100 as a shoulder cam? Keep in mind that its small size to some extent will allow you to build it into whatever size or form factor you may prefer.

Personally I would like a compact shoulder mount but I think a more ergonomic palmcorder design would also be possible. Sony could offer both as they do with the EX1 and EX3, although I also have issues with both those designs. Like I said before, the FS100 appears a development of a video SLR design which is the wrong approach to take IMHO. I would be interested to see what the brief was when the camera was made, I would guess it was deliberately crippled to keep it off the heels of the F3.

That 40% charged battery then lasted for the rest of the day, probably 3 to 4 hours of filming.

Hi Alister, sorry to pick over the crumbs of your conversation...

So, even though your test unit was pre-production, we can look forward to a reasonable battery capacity readout within the viewfinder? That may sound a bit odd and lame from an EX1 viewpoint, but from a DSLR, that's major news. Even though we won't trust the minutes, at least there's some resolution to the power readout unlike the cheaper end of DSLRs...

There was both a battery symbol with the usual gauge inside plus a number display. I can't remember whether it read percent or minutes (I think it was minutes) on the camera, but it did seam accurate. The charger I had gave the charge percentage.

I can confirm Alister's experience. The battery life was amazing when I had demo FS100 for a few days. I charged up a couple of my old Z1U batteries anticipating that I'd need them, but I never did.

I'm pretty sure the battery display in the viewfinder was shown as a percentage, but don't quote me on that.