Just received a "save the date" email from Canon USA... hmmm.

Message contained an image (attached here) and nothing more.

"Canon is making an historic global announcement." Speculation?

camera with a "4th pixel"? ala Sharp or whoever had that on TV... since I see a yellow light in there...

Let me guess: the long awaited and oft rumored large sensor, interchangable lens, 4:2:2, 50mbps XF codec HD Canon camera.
Why do I think this? Because I just bought an FS100. It would just figure....

The dream camera:

1. Using same codec as XF 100/300 series.

2. Large sensor: Same size as the Canon 5D, but lower pixel count to control or eliminate moire and aliasing issues. Also with a selectable filter for reduction.

3, EOS mount to support all Canon lenses.

4. Has XLR inputs. Tracks are individually adjustable.

5. Has internal NDs.

6. Low noise up to 6400 ISO

7. external outputs 4:4:4 for external recording.

8. Component design for accessory add on.

9. 5 inch HD on camera monitor LCD, with swing down slightly magnified eyepiece.

10. Twin card slots for continuous recording.

11. Price point. MSR: w/o Lens: $ 3999


Edit:

Oh, lets add a set of Canon CInema lenses for $2500.

Let's remember that Canon USA announced a pair of PL-mount 4K cinema lenses at NAB back in April:

Canon U.S.A. Introduces Two PL-Mount Digital Cine Zoom Lenses With Full 4K Image Format Performance (http://usa.canon.com/cusa/about_canon?pageKeyCode=pressreldetail&docId=0901e024802da80a)

Sounds like you are thinking high end cinema competition for Sony ? Well I said dream camera,,,,,:)

If I actually knew something about it, I wouldn't be at liberty to say.

But I haven't been NDA'ed on this deal so I don't know *anything.*

I just awoke from a feverish daydream and think I have this figured out.

It's a headworn unit that shoots 4k images 24/7 365 and streams them via a new Canon H-595 compression encoding so efficient that it easily stores everything you'll ever shoot in your entire life on old cast off 2gig Sony MemorySticks.

Now every teen on the planet who can afford the unit will be able to archive his or her entire life, moment by moment, hoping that something "chill" happens to them so that their "headcamfeed" gets picked up by Tosh.0 and makes them a star for 73 seconds.

Unfortunately, Sony and Panasonic will sue them claiming that the 24/7 nature of the audio feed makes the whole system illegal under existing "wiretap" laws so the system will remain tied up in litigation until after everyone reading this is long dead.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it...

I think Mr. Hurd is on the right track. Those PL mount lenses weren't designed for the EOS line of cameras, were they? Canon is shipping lenses for which they have no matching cameras. And the announcement will be made from Hollywood, so this is likely more for Spielberg than for soccer moms and dads. Whatever it is, the poster makes it look significant.

If Canon makes a big pro announcement, I wonder if they will put some of that technology to the next generation of DSLRs. It's always nice to link the identity of consumer models to the quality of pro stuff.

It would be cool if it had a yellow pixel. (Disclaimer: I work for Sharp Laboratories of America (http://sharplabs.com).) Four color TV technology is unique to Sharp's Quattron models. The picture quality on the new Elite models is stunning, BTW. But let's please don't take this thread off topic. There is already a related thread here: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/478357-better-colour-rendition-thanks-4th-pixel.html

I have no inside information on Canon will announce. I can't wait to find out...

I finally can exhale ..........a bit...........

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

ps-Chris I saw this 2 mins after you put it up but we were too busy here......

For the past several years I've gone to NAB expecting Canon to announce a cinema camera built on some of the 5D technology.

I really wonder if this will be it.

As a Canon video dealer who also sells all the competitors, I have been waiting patiently for something on my side of the fence as opposed to the photo market. Now I have my hopes up again...

Allan Barnwell
Omega Broadcast Group - Professional Video Sales, Rental & Services (http://Www.omegabroadcast.com)

2. Large sensor: Same size as the Canon 5D, but lower pixel count to control or eliminate moire and aliasing issues.
The 5D's chip is too big.....it would be like Vistavision....

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Where does one go to register?

I expected the same (a video camera with 5D2 technology.)

Now that we're nearly three years on, I expect that this will be well beyond 5D2 technology. I also expect it to not have DSLR artifacts (line-skipping moire, 25ms rolling shutter.) In 2009, a video form-factor cam with a DSLR sensor would have been fine. In late 2012, I expect more from a large sensor dedicated video/cinema camera.

BTW, how do we know that this will be a camera? It's a really good assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. For all we know, Canon will go to Paramount on November 3rd to announce that it now owns Paramount. ;)

The DSLR artifacts I except it not to have are a mirror, a penta-prism and an optical viewfinder.

Love a camera announcement although generally they end in disappointment. Would be great if Canon really pull something out of the bag and hit all points... well nearly all

Here is the specs on Digic V. I've read that Digic V cuts noise reduction by 75%. Whatever camera it is, its going to see in the dark.

Canon U.S.A. : About Canon : Newsroom (http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/about_canon/newsroom?pageKeyCode=pressreldetail&docId=0901e0248039439f)

Yeah, the thing that bothers me about the poster is the title "The Story Begin" . Kind of has the same feel as the Story Beyond the Still contest. May be this time the Studio is going to let the winner or winnters make a film at the studio, with Canon paying the bill.

I don't think it has anything to do with a contest - its a product announcement, and with the 'historic global announcement' line...a fairly significant one!

Canon have so many options and 'room to move' on this. Sure they could go the predictable FS100 competitor and a higher end F3 competitor. But what if they upped the stakes...with the entry level between the FS100 and F3 and the top model somewhere in the middle of the F3 and an EPIC.

Now THAT would shake things up for everyone.

Personally, I doubt it will be a camera announcement. It might not even be a product announcement at all. I think others are on the right track and it is more likely something to do with a major business/marketing event such as an aquisition or partnership.

If I had guess, I'd say it will be a press conference to announce that in future, all Canon's product launch's and marketing will copy Apple's techniques with announcement dates being published well in advance to generate hype. =)

The DSLR artifacts I except it not to have are a mirror, a penta-prism and an optical viewfinder.

Point taken. I have yet to notice those artifacts in my footage though. :)

In fact, the DSLR form factor doesn't seem to be a problem for digital cinema, where cameras are on rigs, rails, and heads. If anything, its small size has been a boon. Rodney Charters (24 DP) noted that you can put a bolt in the ceiling and mount a DSLR, while a film or digital cinema cam generally needs the crew to build a frame if you want a down-looking shot.

The following production compared the ONE, Alexa, and EPIC, and found the EPIC to have the best ergonomics, but it's still not as small and light as a DSLR.

Sharp Shooting for Guerilla Warfare – Part 2 – Ergonomics and Operation with Red MX, Alexa and EPIC | Digital Cinema Demystified (http://dcinema.wordpress.com/2011/09/08/sharp-shooting-for-guerilla-warfare-part-2-ergonomics-and-operation-with-red-mx-alexa-and-epic/)

Anyway, it's interesting that the DSLR form factor was initially seen as problematic, but for some applications, its small size is superior to the pro competition. And to think that people initially laughed when they first saw these small DSLRs attached to large lenses, rails, and matte boxes.

Anyway, remove the mirror, prism, and optical viewfinder, go with an EVIL design, and the form factor gets even smaller.

I can always bolt stuff together to make a small camera bigger. Adding smallness has always been the tougher challenge...

Arri are now offering a detachable sensor head version of the Alexa. The Epic isn't that much larger than a DSLR, the problem is that once you start putting serious data processing into a camera you need to dissipate the heat generated.

There always has been small profile cameras for mounting into tight places, unfortunately, they usually also offered compromises in the image quality and I'd include the current DSLRs in that.

While a new S35 camera would be the most popular announcement, it might just be related to this:

Project Imagin8ion (http://canon.thismoment.com/)

Hopefully not.

And if is a multilayer sensor?
in the image in the first post we can see many color
may be a foveon like sensor with more layer?


Bye

Sorry for my bad english

I am pretty sure this is way past my budget, I think just the lenses are way past my budget, but I am hoping.

Chris, Why the ""Paramount Studious Hollywood CA."" address ??

Not that it has anything to do with this, but it is unusual that B & H shows the 305, 300, 105, 100, and XA 10 all back ordered ? ?

Expect server traffic to increase abruptly ! ! ! ! time 8:10 EST.

I don't know what will be announced on november, but it seems logical for canon to eventually announce a camera to use their new 4K lenses and another one to use the EF serie of lenses and to keep customers gained by the HDSLR revolution. Seeing what is currently on the market from other manufacturers, it seems logical.

My guess is that Canon will announce a High end PL camera, maybe 4K, in the 50K-100K$ bracket and an other one to use EF lenses, perhaps via an adapter in order to have a short flange distance and also accomodate PL lenses, in the 10K$ bracket.

Is that what will be announced in November? Dunno. But I guess that this is the direction Canon will take.

it might just be related to this: Project Imagin8ion (http://canon.thismoment.com/)

On the surface, that seems like a reasonable conclusion to jump to, but the problem with with this is revealed if you dig a little deeper into the contest details (http://canon.thismoment.com/contestdetails.html): the most public event for Project Imagin8ion which people would be invited to attend would be its premiere, and that's happening in New York City, not Los Angeles.

Chris, Why the "Paramount Studious Hollywood CA." address?I was waiting for someone to ask me that! This question gives me a chance to lecture on my favorite topic, which is History. Because history is cyclical and tends to repeat itself, the future becomes easier to predict. At any rate, back in the summer of 2006, Canon USA hosted a travelling roadshow for the XL H1, and one of the stops was Paramount Studios. I was there for that, as was Robert Sanders, who posted earlier in this thread.

So no, I don't think it's directly connected to the Ron Howard / Project Imagina8ion contest, and yes, there is a precedent for Canon USA doing something camera-related at Paramount Studios. Hope this helps,

Where does one go to register?I think this email blast was just a "save the date" kind of thing with more details such as registration, etc. to follow later on (hopefully). That's my take on it anyway. Do these pics bring back any memories for you, Robert?

That's an interesting bit about the 2006 XL H1 camera, since that also happens to be the long standing hole in Canon's HD camcorder line up ... ack ... my tummy just went topsy turvy. Sounds like the smart money's on a camcorder with interchangeable lenses, and that makes a lot of sense, since Canon loves to come late to the party (and also loves to sell lenses), but still lots of questions on how they've implemented it. Hope Christmas comes early.

Personally, I prefer to have either the DSLR form factor or a true shoulder mount. For me, all the in-between designs just never have the elegance and functionality of the extremes.

Putting something like this out there could almost mean anything...

However, I would like something like the following...

XF100/XF105 form factor/size around there
EF Mount
True 35mm sensor (ala 5D2)
1080/60p
Global Shutter
Codec in 4:2:2
2x XLR Ins
HD-SDI/SDI/HDMI Out in 4:4:4

Its not gonna happen but while we're all having fun speculating, I might as well too!

Now here is a silly question, what will a 4k resolution production be displayed on, digital theatres only ??

If they also have a mid/lower price unit, what technology has evolved since the inception of the XF 305 ?? Of particular interest is the shutter, lenses, bit depth, memory cards, 60p, codec etc.

If there is a lower cost unit my guess (and I bet all of you of a virtual beer) is competition for the F3. With time to listen and see the F3's strengths and weaknesses, Canon could punch the competition in the gut with the added time to perfect a 35mm.

I think it will be their entry into the digital cinema space (2K+, S35 or full frame sensor).

Mr. Valentine (RED) has set the price, and Canon will compete in that space eventually. Everyone will.

The dream camera:
1. Using same codec as XF 100/300 series.


They are releasing this in Hollywood, so lets aim a little higher then a codec used in the XF100!!!

Anything less then a cinema style camera with the option of PL and Canon mounts in the league of epic or scarlet would be a let down. Unless it's a new line based on the 5dmkII beefed up for cinema use to compete with scarlet for the indie market would be great! Full 35mm, 2 or 4k images, no jello cam, hi-end raw or at the minimum Proress HQ codec, and proper audio with XLR would be nice

Canon have so many options and 'room to move' on this. Sure they could go the predictable FS100 competitor and a higher end F3 competitor. But what if they upped the stakes...with the entry level between the FS100 and F3 and the top model somewhere in the middle of the F3 and an EPIC.

Paul, I think canon was surprised by how big the 5d and 7d was for filmmakers. Red changed the game, and the 5d took advantage of that thinking, without being designed for it. I have no clue, but I think the 5d must have doubled or tripled canons expectations for sales. Plus guys like me who bought a full line of L-series zooms. If canon were not realize the potential of a camera that did so well, but lacked so much, what could they do if they deliver a camera that was 80% t 90% of what people want.

The only other option is a 4k camera to compete with red epic at a higher market value like epic. The 5d is better to compete with scarlet.

On the surface, that seems like a reasonable conclusion to jump to, but the problem with with this is revealed if you dig a little deeper into the contest details (http://canon.thismoment.com/contestdetails.html): the most public event for Project Imagin8ion which people would be invited to attend would be its premiere, and that's happening in New York City, not Los Angeles.

Maybe the Project Imagina8ion final product was shot on this possible new camera and is being used to showcase it's capabilities?

Who knows.... but something is near...

The only other option is a 4k camera to compete with red epic at a higher market value like epic. The 5d is better to compete with scarlet.

The high end 4k market has or will have a number of cameras competing, the EPIC, the Sony F65 and the Aaton 4K Delta Penelope, never mind if Arri come up with one in the near future. It's an area where Canon have only operated in optics, however, the larger market is a camera that is capable of quality 2k or 1080p HD, which has been demonstrated by the uptake of the F3, even with a non broadcast HD internal codec..

The Scarlet is only on 2/3", but it should outperform the 5D in many respects unless you want a very shallow DOF.

They are releasing this in Hollywood, so lets aim a little higher then a codec used in the XF100!!!

Anything less then a cinema style camera with the option of PL and Canon mounts in the league of epic or scarlet would be a let down. Unless it's a new line based on the 5dmkII beefed up for cinema use to compete with scarlet for the indie market would be great! Full 35mm, 2 or 4k images, no jello cam, hi-end raw or at the minimum Proress HQ codec, and proper audio with XLR would be nice

I am a not a hollywood production company, nor do I ever expect to be. My hopes are based on my needs as an enthusiast who is deeply involved in no to low budget production.

For years Canon has been heavily invested in the low end film maker market. An early adopter of 24p in most of its cameras, as well as 16:9 aspect ratio, I think it has shown a commitment to film making on the independent level. This comes from someone who was a very heavy Sony man for many years. In recent years, since the Canon 5D, which admittedly was a bit of surprise to them, that tradition was continued. I think the the DSLR craze probably delayed plans that Canon had to push further in to the "indie" low end market. The recent T3i demonstrates Canon commitment to additions (within economical limits) to the DSLR line that had been lobbied for by film makers.

But with more cinema dedicated cameras like the FS-100 and the VG-20 soon to be released ( coincidentally a November shipping date ?) hitting the market, I think it is clear Canon recognizes it will have to enter the dedicated big chip cinema style camera. Perhaps with the new Digic 5 chip, and a redesigned large chip (Super 35mm ?), it hopes to jump out ahead again.

Price wise ? I am hoping Canon believes a volume low end camera will be better than competing in the $ 7 to $15 k market. I am hoping for an under $ 4 k price tag in a unit similar to the FS -100 or the AF100.

Now here is a silly question, what will a 4k resolution production be displayed on, digital theatres only ??

Even if you will deliver 1080p or 2K, having 4K acquisition can be helpful when compositing. It also makes your content more future proof.

I'd differentiate between oversampling with the sensor and the format you're recording onto. Most productions only have a limited shelf life and even the uptake on HDTV in the market has a way to go, currently the hype is for 3D anyway and 1080p is where most productions will be distributed or screened . So, unless you're planning for theatrical distribution, 4K is probably overkill as a recording format for a few years yet.

I hear it has a woodpecker in the back of it that looks through the lens and chips the image into a piece of wood. A user installable woodpecker update will allow you to use stone slabs instead of wood.

A dual woodpecker model will be available in 2013... probably to the chagrin of all those who bought the single woodpecker model.

On the surface, that seems like a reasonable conclusion to jump to, but the problem with with this is revealed if you dig a little deeper into the contest details (http://canon.thismoment.com/contestdetails.html): the most public event for Project Imagin8ion which people would be invited to attend would be its premiere, and that's happening in New York City, not Los Angeles.

I was waiting for someone to ask me that! This question gives me a chance to lecture on my favorite topic, which is History. Because history is cyclical and tends to repeat itself, the future becomes easier to predict. At any rate, back in the summer of 2006, Canon USA hosted a travelling roadshow for the XL H1, and one of the stops was Paramount Studios. I was there for that, as was Robert Sanders, who posted earlier in this thread.

So no, I don't think it's directly connected to the Ron Howard / Project Imagina8ion contest, and yes, there is a precedent for Canon USA doing something camera-related at Paramount Studios. Hope this helps,

I think this email blast was just a "save the date" kind of thing with more details such as registration, etc. to follow later on (hopefully). That's my take on it anyway. Do these pics bring back any memories for you, Robert?

Wow, has it been that long ago? Hard to believe.

Putting something like this out there could almost mean anything...

However, I would like something like the following...

XF100/XF105 form factor/size around there
EF Mount
True 35mm sensor (ala 5D2)
1080/60p
Global Shutter
Codec in 4:2:2
2x XLR Ins
HD-SDI/SDI/HDMI Out in 4:4:4

Its not gonna happen but while we're all having fun speculating, I might as well too!


Yup. Small-ish form factor. Large sensor. Proper audio controls. Interchangeable lenses/mounts. 1080p backbone with a healthy codec/data-rate. All for under $10k.

This is just my opinion, but I doubt very much Canon is going to announce a 4K camera. Anyone who knows Canon, and more importantly their history, knows that Canon is a very conservative company. But being conservative isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Even though RED has successfully changed the product landscape of the electronic's world, Canon isn't going to compete with RED directly. They're competing with Panasonic and Sony. Which means they're competing with the F3 and the FS100. I would look at those cameras and their configurations to gain an insight into what Canon's up to.

Canon is smart by coming to the party late. This is their history. What this gives them is an insight into how to make a better product. They examine the weaknesses of their competitors products and develop something that is unique enough to compete (and steal market share). The VX1000 jolted the world. But that XL1 stole the show. Panasonic proved 24p was available for the masses. Canon coupled it with true 16x9 chips (even though the XL2 was a sales disappointment). The HVX brought HD down from heaven, but Canon's H1 resolution was hand down superior (remember the old 24F vs 24P arguments of yore?).

So what are the weaknesses of the competitors?

F3 is a tough camera to beat. In fact, the F3 is awesome! But it's expensive. So price is where Canon can compete by keeping it in the $10k sweet spot.

FS100 was a good first step by Panasonic. But the sensor is a little too small, the mount is limiting, and the codec is a little weak. But the price rocks. So I expect Canon to use their badass chip foundry mojo to introduce a custom large-format sensor (probably APS-C or APS-H) coupled with a healthy codec (of which flavor i have no clue).

Anyway. Just my thoughts.

Problem for Canon is, a large-sensor 1080p camera is hardly new or earth-shattering at this point -- not even a cheap one is novel, as Sony will have a 24p model, the VG20, at about $2K. Nothing less than 4K would be exciting. And 50-Mbps MPEG2 for 4K? Utter crappola. Canon needs to license AVC Ultra or maybe even consider something mature and proven, like 12-bit CineForm RAW.

Regarding the next 5D, the only sure fire predictions are better noise reduction, more AF points, and improved AF. Why? Because Nikon's full frame competitive model currently wins in those areas.

Find other specs where Nikon wins on the photo front and you can bet that Canon will tweak those areas.

As to video features, Nikon is behind. What Canon does for video is anybody's guess.

This is just my opinion, but I doubt very much Canon is going to announce a 4K camera. Anyone who knows Canon, and more importantly their history, knows that Canon is a very conservative company. But being conservative isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Even though RED has successfully changed the product landscape of the electronic's world, Canon isn't going to compete with RED directly. They're competing with Panasonic and Sony. Which means they're competing with the F3 and the FS100. I would look at those cameras and their configurations to gain an insight into what Canon's up to.

Canon is smart by coming to the party late. This is their history. What this gives them is an insight into how to make a better product. They examine the weaknesses of their competitors products and develop something that is unique enough to compete (and steal market share). The VX1000 jolted the world. But that XL1 stole the show. Panasonic proved 24p was available for the masses. Canon coupled it with true 16x9 chips (even though the XL2 was a sales disappointment). The HVX brought HD down from heaven, but Canon's H1 resolution was hand down superior (remember the old 24F vs 24P arguments of yore?).

So what are the weaknesses of the competitors?

F3 is a tough camera to beat. In fact, the F3 is awesome! But it's expensive. So price is where Canon can compete by keeping it in the $10k sweet spot.

FS100 was a good first step by Panasonic. But the sensor is a little too small, the mount is limiting, and the codec is a little weak. But the price rocks. So I expect Canon to use their badass chip foundry mojo to introduce a custom large-format sensor (probably APS-C or APS-H) coupled with a healthy codec (of which flavor i have no clue).

Anyway. Just my thoughts.

Sorry Robert, but the FS100 is the consumer version of the Sony F3. The Panasonic camera is the AF100/101. I agree with your other comments though. :)

Daniel Weber

Looking forward to this...!

Based on what little is known (and what has been said here already) I think the following assumptions are fairly safe:

-Given the timing of the announcement, location at Paramount, and Canon's history, it is a revolutionary new camera announcement and will be aimed at the creative indie filmmaker since they already have the XA, XH, and XF series for corporate/event video. The big-budget studio arena is crowded with $50-100k competitors and Canon's never really had a seat at that table anyway. The $3-10k segment has some great offerings from Sony and Panasonic, but all have their flaws as well. Canon has had just enough time to design a model that will one-up the competition.

-It will be a large-format sensor - probably APS-C to reduce heat build-up - and with the DIGIC 5 processor. The 3x 1/3" chip market is already flooded and practically obsolete for digital filmmaking moving forward. Larger sensors with better low light & shallow DOF are what creative filmmakers want.

-It will have interchangeable lenses. Canon already has a huge offering of great glass; with the discontinuation of the XL-H1 it makes sense that they would want to sell a camcorder to put behind their lenses. The only question here is: will it have an EF or PL mount? I think it will be EF.

-It will have full manual controls, but will it be through physical buttons/dials, or via touchscreen?

Other stuff like codec, bitrate, features, I/O connectors, storage medium, etc. remains to be seen, but my gut feeling is that it will be designed to compete with the AF100, FS100, and Scarlet.

Earth shattering would be F3 specs at an FS100 price. At this point in time, having listened to the professional consumers, Canon could easily make earth shattering news by going through the isles with their shopping cart selecting the best features of all. One that stands out in my mind is not needing to purchase an external recorder, 444 recording internal, dual cheap memory, large optical or HD monitor, great imaging chip, and could dual configure to shoulder or front (think about that one) . I think all of us would love to push that buggy, we could easily pick out a dream camcorder. Perhaps Canon has.

What is the difference between the F3 and FS 100 electronics wise ?? probably a $ 1000 worth of components and better software and maybe some licensing. In reality, I bet the F3's actual cost is not far from the FS 100. Maybe Canon will target this gap.


A new sensor technology is probably going to be the big bang on the 3rd, perhaps the huge increase in dynamic range rumors are true ! ! !

http://www.canon.com/news/2011/sep15e.html

"Through the further development of distinctive CMOS image sensors, Canon will break new ground in the world of new image expression, in the areas of still images as well as video".

Daniel, the FS100 is hardly a consumer camera. It's professional all the way.
Some of the guesses as to the nature of the announcement are really becoming pie-in the-sky. I think some of you are setting yourselves up for a big disappointment. It's OK to dream and all, but there's just not enough info for any type of serious discussion.
I'm leaning toward the announcement having something to do with the "Imagina8ion" contest. That way, if the announcment is on the contest, I'll expect as much. But if it is a new whiz-bang camera, then the announcement will exceed my expectations.

I agree Glen, I was mainly speaking of price. I would love to own the FS 100 and have thought several times about it but held off.