Here is the email I got today from my friend, DS Gant at AbelCine in Chicago(Oakbrook),
"Sony recently announced firmware version 1.20 for the PMW-F3. The new firmware, which will be released in November, will enable the use of the zoom rocker found on the F3, as well as some other very cool features. The first is the ability to turn on the 3D Link function in the camera with a new add-on key called CBK-3DLO1. On the back of the camera you’ll find the 3D link port, which will enable two F3s to be linked together for 3D. When combined with a Sony paintbox, both cameras can be controlled at the same time. Additionally, if Sony’s upcoming 14x lens is used on both cameras, a matching zoom, focus and iris can be achieved at the same time. (Read more about this new lens on our blog tomorrow.) This makes the F3 very straightforward to set up for 3D use. The CBK-3DL01 option key has a list price of $5,500 and includes the cable needed to connect both cameras.

Perhaps the most significant addition of all is Exposure Index S-Log mode. You will still need the S-Log option installed to make this work, but if you already have the S-Log option on, this will be enabled right away. The Exposure Index mode works differently than the standard S-Log mode – it sets the camera at an optimal ISO (800) and maximizes the sensor output, giving a full extra stop of exposure. Then when the gain switch is adjusted, instead of adding gain it adjusts the exposure index. A practical explanation of this is that when gain is increased the camera will push up the exposure values, and when it is decreased it will pull down those values. Because the ISO is set to get the most out of the sensor, the exposure index change works more like an adjustment in post. The extra stop in exposure is big news though, and I can’t wait to try it out.

We also learned about another firmware update coming out at the end of the year. Version 1.30 of the F3 firmware will be available around the end of December or January 2012, and will coincide with the release of Sony’s wide angle 11-16mm PL mount lens. The firmware will add one really important feature, which is the ability to output S-Log in 422. When S-Log is enabled (with the optional key), you will be able to send a 422 signal out of the Dual-Link ‘A’ output. Right now S-Log can only be sent out via the regular SDI output, by turning off the output LUT. With the new firmware, we will be able to send out S-Log over the ‘A’ output, while sending out another signal with the LUT applied over the regular SDI. This is a great feature for anyone using aKi Pro Mini, PIX240 or other external recorder."

The 2 features I am VERY excited about are the new EI S-Log and output 422 S-Log via SDI A. I was getting ready to do some tests with S-Log and recording to a PIX240 and Cinedeck Extreme, but will now wait for the EI800 S-Log. According to Sony, the Dynamic Range will increase another FULL STOP! OMG :)

Seeing how the F3 handles highlights with and without S-Log, this camera was definitely made for S-Log. And now with a rating of 14 stops for under $17,000, this is a game changer. Red can boast about its resolution, but DR is much more important to me. I would love to see a test between the F3 + 444 S-Log versus the Alexa and Red Epic.... and the F65.

On a side note, I know some are looking forward to the Gemini, but you should consider the fact that it will cost as much or more than a Cindeck Extreme (adding $1400 each for 4 512GB SSDs) while the Cinedeck gives you several Codecs, 422, 444 and uncompressed. Then, add in extra storage costs for the Gemini and the Cinedeck is looking really affordable.

So EI mode will keep the gain on the sensor the same, and adjust the exposure in DSP, it sounds like? Applying a "LUT" in DSP, in other words?

This is essentially what Red does. Sensor gain always stays the same, and you pull the image up after compression because they figure since everything is recorded in 12 bits, it doesn't matter if you do it before A to D or after.

Unlike some other companies, I trust Sony if they say "this new way is better". Having just got my S-Log an hour ago, I'll be keen to try it out.

I took a chance on buying a PIX240. Looks like my gamble may pay off.

I'll certainly rent a 4:4:4 recorder if I ever get a project that needs it. Its going to be great to have the choice of quality levels to match the project requirements.

I took a chance on buying a PIX240. Looks like my gamble may pay off.

I'll certainly rent a 4:4:4 recorder if I ever get a project that needs it. Its going to be great to have the choice of quality levels to match the project requirements.

How do you plan on powering the PIX240? I don't know if you saw my post about when I tested the PIX a week or so ago and had issues with the Sony L batteries.

So EI mode will keep the gain on the sensor the same, and adjust the exposure in DSP, it sounds like? Applying a "LUT" in DSP, in other words?

This is essentially what Red does. Sensor gain always stays the same, and you pull the image up after compression because they figure since everything is recorded in 12 bits, it doesn't matter if you do it before A to D or after.

Unlike some other companies, I trust Sony if they say "this new way is better". Having just got my S-Log an hour ago, I'll be keen to try it out.

Hey Nate,

What will you use to record the S-Log output?

You will definitely be pleased with the S-Log recording. I just can't believe the image quality of a $13k camera when you add another $5500 for the S-Log upgrade and a recorder.

I went back and read the part about the extra stop of exposure because I am confused about whether we get 1 more stop of DR or we just get one more stop of increasing the exposure. It would be amazing if the DR was increased another stop to 14 stops putting it in Alexa and F65 territory, not to mention film.

I'll be getting a Samurai at first to give it a whirl, since two separate friends are getting Pix240s for me to try out soon.

Funny, it's size I'm most concerned about, not price. Well see how it goes.

I'm already thrilled with S-log to SxS, it fixes so many ugly picture traits of the F3 like the busted highlight handling, yellow highlight casts, etc etc.

It grades back to a normal look even in 8bit pretty well. I can see the posterizing as it hits black, but I'd rather have that than neon green foliage when it's overexposed.

Can the Samurai remove pulldown because the Ninja cannot.

From what I have personally seen, no external recorder has a great LCD but the PIX240 has the best screen and is sooo easy to setup and use. Its no TVLogic but it works good enough for viewing and playback. It took me all of 2 minutes to set it up, format the SSD and go. For my money, I would go with a trusted manufacturer who has a proven track record of reliable equipment. I have seen how cheaply made the Ninja and its accessories are and it would make me nervous to use on paying jobs. Also, I really like the 'caddy' idea of the PIX and that it can record to an internal SSD or a CF card. I like that I can record to the CF card and take home with me while my friend takes his PIX with him. This would also work for giving a client a copy of footage at the end of the day on a CF card.

Can the Samurai remove pulldown because the Ninja cannot..

I hadn't thought of that yet, but apparently it can.

I would go with a trusted manufacturer who has a proven track record of reliable equipment.

I have no doubt the Pix is the one to have. But it's bigger, and I have access to two.

I'll try the Samurai and if it's NG, I'll pass it on and lose $150.

Not alarmed by reliability questions quite yet, since as I understand it I'll have to have SxS cards in the cam to roll to anyway (need rolling TC, therefore need in cam media)

How do you plan on powering the PIX240? I don't know if you saw my post about when I tested the PIX a week or so ago and had issues with the Sony L batteries.

I'm using one of the aftermarket batteries with a D-Tap connector. Got the power cable and plugged it into the battery. Works perfectly.

I also ordered the D-tap connector with my Pix and plan to power it from the Switronix 96 battery

I'm already thrilled with S-log to SxS, it fixes so many ugly picture traits of the F3 like the busted highlight handling, yellow highlight casts, etc etc.

It grades back to a normal look even in 8bit pretty well. I can see the posterizing as it hits black, but I'd rather have that than neon green foliage when it's overexposed.[/QUOTE]


Do you feel the s-log to the internal SxS card is a big enough improvement that a producer can tell the difference?

Do you feel the s-log to the internal SxS card is a big enough improvement that a producer can tell the difference?

Savvy, experienced, high-end producers and clients, yes. They won't know how or why, but the people I work for would say, "yes, that looks a little more pretty".

In my circle of D.P. and director friends, we loved the F3 but had to admit to ourselves that given the choice of using my F3 or my friends Red MX, for instance, the MX would win out just based on it having a more natural, organic image. The F3 still felt a little video.

With S-Log, even to just XDCAM codec, I think that look has been erased and replaced with something more gentle and flattering. Refined is another word I'd use.

Personally, internally at Sony, I think it was two different sets of people that did the camera tuning. The team and eyes that did the basic picture processing, and then the folks responsible for S-log. They seem to take very different approaches.

Savvy, experienced, high-end producers and clients, yes. They won't know how or why, but the people I work for would say, "yes, that looks a little more pretty".

In my circle of D.P. and director friends, we loved the F3 but had to admit to ourselves that given the choice of using my F3 or my friends Red MX, for instance, the MX would win out just based on it having a more natural, organic image. The F3 still felt a little video.

With S-Log, even to just XDCAM codec, I think that look has been erased and replaced with something more gentle and flattering.

Personally, internally at Sony, I think it was two different sets of people that did the camera tuning. The team and eyes that did the basic picture processing, and then the folks responsible for S-log. They seem to take very different approaches.

At least it should be possible for Sony to fix the highlight handling in the regular gammas by releasing a firmware update to alter how the DSP processes highlights OR Sony sees this as an opportunity to sell more S-Log 444 upgrades.

That Zacuto SCCE should have been postponed a few months so they could have included the Epic and F3 + S-Log. These 2 cameras are very popular and most people I know would have preferred to see these 2 cameras more than the others. For $20-25k, these cameras are amazing and they have no competition anywhere close in price.

You can dramatically improve the way the F3 handles saturated highlights with the Cinegammas simply by using the Cinema matrix or reducing the Saturation level. Part of the issue is that to comply with REC-709 you can only have a peak combined chroma/luma video level of 140 IRE and anything above this clips. So when you have a highly saturated image with a high luma level you will run into chroma clipping issues. reduce the chroma level and you will have far fewer nasties and you can always tweak colour in post.

RGB Slog does not have these issues as the video does not have to comply with REC-709 so illegal record levels are just fine.

I'm shooting with a pre production Gemini and 4:4:4 Slog in Mumbai and the latitude is very impressive indeed. You can also push it very hard in post, far harder than you can with the Slog on the SxS cards.

I'm already thrilled with S-log to SxS, it fixes so many ugly picture traits of the F3 like the busted highlight handling, yellow highlight casts, etc etc.

I don't understand what all this talk is about highlight handling problems with the F3. What problems? I don't have any problems with handling hightligts. Do you have any examples of what you are referring to? I just got back from a trip out West with a lot of outdoor shooting in mixed lighting and I didn't have any trouble at all controlling exposure. Most of the of this video is ungraded except for adding some vignetting in a couple of places. Contrast, color, etc, are right out of the camera.

Autumn in Utah, Colorado, and Wyoming with Sony's PMW-F3 on Vimeo

I don't understand what all this talk is about highlight handling problems with the F3. What problems? I don't have any problems with handling hightligts. Do you have any examples of what you are referring to?

If you shoot with preset white balance, anything over 100 or 109 (depending on CG), goes yellow. Midtones go green. Chroma isn't rolled off as it goes into clip, which cameras like the Alexa, Canons, and Red do.

If you don't have anything that's saturated and about to clip, then you're fine. I don't see a single frame in your video where you're clipping, although all the whites are going yellow (which looks nice in your case), but I personally am not into that on every job I do.

These are traits I've seen in the entire XDCAM line starting with the PDW-F350 I had years ago.

I pulled this still from a video Douglas Villaba posted on Vimeo, hope he doesn't mind! I should mention that the below is about the worst I've ever seen what I'm talking about. Most of the time it's more subtle, both the chroma clipping and the color casts.

Quote: "I don't see a single frame in your video where you're clipping, although all the whites are going yellow (which looks nice in your case), but I personally am not into that on every job I do."


Yes, I take care to expose properly -- thus no clipping. Problem solved.

So, "alll the whites are going yellow"? Really? You better take another look. Yes, SOME of the whites are going yellow -- that is the whole point of shooting at certain times of day. What am I supposed to do, white balance at sunset/sunrise and remove the natural tones that exist in real life? If you want pure white clouds, have a late breakfast and shoot at noon. If you look at any scenes shot around mid-day, (such as 2:24 and 3:04) those whites are not "going yellow".

Any whites that ARE going yellow, were captured that way correctly by the camera. If someone is having trouble with clipped highlights shifting colors, then the solution is simple -- expose properly. Problem solved.

I don't see what we are supposed to learn from the freeze you posted from Douglas Villaba's. If you want to see badly shot video, I can point out many examples. How about if I post a still that is out of focus and then use that to prove my point that the camera has a focus problem? The so-called color problems with highlights from the F3 are attributable to operator error. Build a good PP, expose properly, and all is well.

For a great example of poor highlight handling, look at the Zacuto SCCE test and the 1st video with overexposed background. It is clear as day there. And it wasn't some schmuck operating the F3. It was being recorded to a Codex or SR recorder and was set up to its best ability.

Doug, if you don't agree, then can we agree to disagree? My observation is about the camera, not your shooting.

I myself, kept the opinion to myself until I found other shooters who, unsolicited, expressed the same opinion. Then I knew what my eyes were telling me wasn't completely off base. In addition, it's not practical at all times to expose so nothing in the frame is clipping. Often, I WANT some aspect of the picture to go white. But I want it a graceful, neutral white, and while the F3 stock will do it sometimes, other times it goes ugly for me.

By the way, below are some RGB values. What I see there is the same thing that the parade scope in Davinci tells me. Another thing, somebody has mentioned to me the problem is mitigated when doing a manual white balance.

My aim is not to argue about it...if you don't agree, then that's ok with me. You seem to make great pictures no matter what the case is.

Like a GOP Debate Nevada Style.
Doug, yes you captured yellow as it was , yellow. Nate, yes there is an issue with clipping whites when over exposing, but not in Doug's correctly exposed examples. So lets move on to what Alister has pointed out. 709 limitations when over exposing.
I too have moments when overexposing is a must due to the nature of my work. I do not have the liberty of fixing it on the spot. News Doc work is WYSIWYG. You have to let it go to get the subject exposed enough for the audience to experience what you are experiencing. Given time I'll quick grab a different Cine setting or Hyper Gamma to raise the mid/low tones, but it usually sacrifices the best bite. So I often let it ride.
But when I have the time(>3 sec) I'Il try to set exposure and gamma for the situation at hand.

Like a GOP Debate Nevada Style. Doug, yes you captured yellow as it was , yellow. Nate, yes there is an issue with clipping whites when over exposing, but not in Doug's correctly exposed examples. So lets move on to what Alister has pointed out. 709 limitations when over exposing.

No. :)

I greatly value Nate's views because he comes from a colorist background and is doing exactly what I am trying to do - be a DP and Colorist (once Resolve is released on Windows in a few months) in addition to my love for VFX.

I also value Doug's views, but he is shooting for stock footage and almost zero post processing. If anyone has purchased his DVDs, then they will know how much knowledge he has to give. I love the post production part of my job where I can be 'artsy' and manipulate images with many tools - AE, Nuke, Resolve, C4D. So, I tend to shoot for manipulation in post. For example, I shot at 56k at night so I could get orange lights to go with the orange leaves (using SLog to a PIX240).

Like I said before, the 1st video in the Zacuto SCCE test shows the F3's highlight handling of an overexposed white background. I will be conducting some tests next month when the Gemini is released and the new firmware with EI S-Log in addition to the PIX240 and Cinedeck Extreme. From past use, I still think the Cinedeck is THE recorder to use with the F3 and SLog. It gives you several Codecs (PR, DNxHD, Cineform 422/444 & uncompressed).

Steve,
I also value Nate's and Doug's contributions to the craft. And yes Doug has demonstrated how incredible the F3 can be without post grading, and Nate is all over the capabilities of what the F3 can be with post processing.
That is the beauty of the F3. Enjoy it with or with out grading. It fits a lot of markets.

Nate, no problem. I enjoy the debate and being forced to justify my own opinion and hear other people do the same. I'll bet we both nudged a little bit towards the other's point of view. Actually, learning Resolve has been on my back burner for several weeks. I'm hoping to have a break over the holidays (after I also get my new Sony OLED monitor) and start to get my feet wet -- but I know it will be a long time before I will be proficient.

I'm also hoping to have the time to do some serious testing of S-LOG in the near future and really find out for myself one way or the other if it is worth the extra workflow hassles. So far, I have not seen that proof anywhere -- not even from Sony. I've got S-LOG enabled on my camera, but my initial dabbling with it is inconclusive. I want to set up a test where I shoot a couple of difficult scenes perfectly exposed with my best PP setting using a Cinegammas. Then stop, step back, and setup the camera for the best S-LOG exposure at 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 on the same scenes. Then send that raw S-LOG material to an experienced colorist (I am not qualified for this step) and really find out which is better . . . and to what degree. The key with my testing is that the S-LOG clips and the Cinegamma clips will be recorded at separate times because it is impossible to record a PP and S-LOG at the same time. That is the main reason why I don't give a hoot about the "world's first S-LOG footage" that was shot in Vegas during NAB. You can't come to any conclusions when both methods are recorded simultaneously, thus a side-by-side test like that is meaningless.

Is S-LOG better? I'm sure it probably is, but by how much? What if it is only a 5% improvement but the workflow hassles slow me down 50% and I lose out on all the great workflow advantages I love about XDCAM -- then it won't be worth it to me to use S-LOG except for for special situations. I don't have the answers, I'm just thinking out loud.

Steve,
I also value Nate's and Doug's contributions to the craft. And yes Doug has demonstrated how incredible the F3 can be without post grading, and Nate is all over the capabilities of what the F3 can be with post processing.
That is the beauty of the F3. Enjoy it with or with out grading. It fits a lot of markets.

Hi Dennis,

I hope that I didn't come across the wrong way. I was just saying no to ending the debate and moving on. I then was trying to be 'diplomatic' with Nate and Doug.

My first shoot with the F3 a few weeks ago is where I personally experienced the yellow highlights. I used the F3 for interviews as part of a large parade with EX3/1/1r being used to record the parade. Because this was for broadcast and needed a quick turnaround, I shot everything with Rec 709 thus clipping everything at IRE100. The EX3/1/1r didn't have the yellow tint but the F3 did.

On a side note, I have a question for Nate and others: how do you usually bring video recorded with 109 IRE down to 100 for broadcast? In Premiere Pro, I have used the Broadcast Effect, Curves and any RGB effect which bring the levels to 16-235 without affecting the image like the Broadcast effect.

Steve,
You did not. I understood.

What if it is only a 5% improvement but the workflow hassles slow me down 50% and I lose out on all the great workflow advantages I love about XDCAM......... DJ

Doug,
Spot on for many markets. People who have not worked with F35, RED or Alexa et al., and their workflow demands, and view the F3 in 709 are blown away, but not $$$$ ready for S Log grading beyond basic WB correction. It has been a tough sell for my market. I have met with the tech side of both CBS and NBC on this. All they want to know is how much extra it is going to cost them.
When I demonstrate the savings of having 24+ international crews shooting S Log and having the CC punch up the "Look" of the show their eyes start to spin. I need more demo time, which is coming.

Dennis, maybe I need to make a trip to Florida and see what we can do with some testing. Very tempting.

Hi Doug,

Your view on SLog is definitely spot on when you debate whether its beneficial to YOU and YOUR workflow. Too many people think that just because Camera A produces a better image than Camera B, they should only use Camera A. 'B' might provide a better workflow which helps them produce a better video in the end.

Its funny because someone just asked me today whether he should buy the SLog upgrade or a Gemini. I explained how I view the order of quality: 1st is SLog to Gemini 444; 2nd is SLog to PIX and 3rd is cinegamma to PIX with internal 35Mb 420 last.

I have access to my friend's F3 with SLog and a PIX240 but the extra hassle of recording out to SLog is not needed for all projects. However, from my shots so far, I will use SLog as much as I can. My friend laughed at me when I said that I will record SLog to the PIX for a simple political commercial. The extra Dynamic Range and higher quality of 10bit Pro Res is worth the very small effort of using the PIX. A simple Curves adjustment brings the SLog image back to normal, and I must say that it looks stunning. I am a DR fanatic; so, the 13-13.5 stops of SLog versus 11 of cinegammas is worth it by itself.

For your landscape footage, wouldn't the extra 2+ stops of DR greatly help?

Dennis, maybe I need to make a trip to Florida and see what we can do with some testing. Very tempting.

Door is always open. Stone crabs are chilled in the same chest as the Stella.

Bring your Xenars and I'll have Dan send us a Gemini. The SR-R1 should be here soon.

I think Steve is right about the extra stops of DR.

On a third thought; Since we do not sell camera support stuff, and our opinions are free and clear, I'll have Alister, Nate, Steve, and yourself flown down here for extensive testing and have Sony, Peter C, pick up the tab. Peter?????

I just saw Dan last night and the Gemini is getting close, but still not quite ready. I could bring a Cinedeck Extreme.

Count me in on the big get together. In addtiton to the Xenars, you've got to try my RED 300mm T2.9. That is my new favorite lens.

Oh! We also need to wrangle one of the new SCL-Z8x140 lenses and see if it is any good.

Door is always open. Stone crabs are chilled in the same chest as the Stella.

Bring your Xenars and I'll have Dan send us a Gemini. The SR-R1 should be here soon.

I think Steve is right about the extra stops of DR.

On a third thought; Since we do not sell camera support stuff, and our opinions are free and clear, I'll have Alister, Nate, Steve, and yourself flown down here for extensive testing and have Sony, Peter C, pick up the tab. Peter?????

Don't tempt me because I might not leave ;) My only change would be the Stella because it gives me headaches even though its my favorite.

For several years, I lived in St Pete and then Bradenton. I absolutely love Florida, especially the warm and dry winters. If I still had certain family members down there, I would be a FL resident.

Well if I can fit it in to my schedule you can count me in. Would be a lot of fun and I'm sure some lively discussions would be part of the fun. I have a pre-production Gemini on loan at the moment, although I'm currently in Asia so wrong part of the world.

I did a sunrise shoot with a motion control rig last weekend and we got the almost inevitable chroma clipping as the sun came over the horizon when using a stock setup with CG3. However pulling the saturation down to -35 eliminated most of the clipping on later passes, same with S-log, no clipping problems there.

Sunrise at Corfe Castle - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnZ0UskWNRY)

For your landscape footage, wouldn't the extra 2+ stops of DR greatly help?

Sorry Steve, I almost missed your question.

Yes, I think a couple extra stops of DR would have been very helpful. The question is, can S-LOG really provide it, and do I will want to grade the three hours of good footage I shot on the trip? What I have posted at Vimeo is just the tip of the iceberg of what I acquired. So, the answer to that question depends on further testing with S-LOG. One of these days, I hope to have the time to set it up and do it right. As you know, it is not a casual thing I can just throw together in a couple of hours. I'm going to have to see the difference for myself using my PP, my scopes, and my exposure settings.

I shot camera tests with the F3 in s-log and with the various PP and saw firsthand how the s-log retained highlight information better. Sold me hard on the viability of the camera. Enabling 422 output with simultaneous LUT'd output will be a welcome addition, it's created a fair amount of workaround for me on the current show.

For me, I'd rather work with a recorder without a screen--chunky onboards and heavy-duty arms are an irritation especially in handheld and Steadicam mode. We tried the Cinedeck and it seemed like an ill fit physically on the camera.

I tried talking t the Samurai guys about making a version without a screen or just a small screen because they could never compete with a dedicated monitor for screen quality and most of us are very veryt picky about our monitors to begin with. I'm happy with my TV logic and don't need a second 5" screen cluttering up the camera . Oh well.

I think I'm waiting for the Samurai and the software that enables LUTs in 422 before considering making the jump to to sLog. Personally i would love it , but most of my clients are rush rush in post and don't want to bother.

To answer my own question, YES the new EI S-Log will add yet another stop of DR. Amazing....

Yes, I think a couple extra stops of DR would have been very helpful. The question is, can S-LOG really provide it, and do I will want to grade the three hours of good footage I shot on the trip?

But imagine it you had a few custom LUTs to apply to the footage and your grading was pretty much done. At least to the point your PP would have done, minor tweaking to finish.

That is a nice dream that sounds good on paper, but it will not give me the resutls I want for several reasons I won't bother to explain here. But if you believe that a couple of "one size fits all" LUTs, applied in post to all your footage, will achieve the results you want, then go for it. Have you actually tried it? I'd be interested to hear if you you have actually had success with that type of approach. I thiink the the key word in your post is "imagine". :-)

If one wanted to create a common look for example on a series that has multiple DP's from various locations, capturing S LOG and having predetermined Set/Post LUTs for varied scenes based on exposure ratios(Hi/Low con), and subjective gamut parameters. I can see the need.
I have a green light to implement this on a network program, TBA. Will post as it progresses.

I recently saw the result of a "one size fits all" LUT applied to rough cuts of my footage and it was frustrating. No bueno.

Not having worked with Slog this is all speculative:
I imagine that if you are not using the LUT to set your exposure then it would probably bounce around like crazy when applied later.
However once the next firmware upgrade that allows a LUT to be used even with 4:2:2, it might become more useful in post. Of course you may still have color balance issues. Does the new firmware allow white balancing - I don't recall that it did.

That is a nice dream that sounds good on paper, but it will not give me the resutls I want for several reasons I won't bother to explain here. But if you believe that a couple of "one size fits all" LUTs, applied in post to all your footage, will achieve the results you want, then go for it. Have you actually tried it? I'd be interested to hear if you you have actually had success with that type of approach. I thiink the the key word in your post is "imagine". :-)

Doug, reread the post. I think you misinterpreted what I said to me a LUT was going to be a final grade. It just gives you an idea where you're going. A few comments are in order:

1) Everything is milky in S-log unless you have a LUT somewhere between the camera and the monitor. If you have a LUT that's close to what you want you'll have a much better idea what you're doing.

2) In a very real sense a LUT is like your picture profile. You have a half a dozen favorite PPs in your camera. You pick one that's going to be suitable for that situation. You then do a color grade from there. A LUT does not eliminate color correction or grading.

3) You'll be able to record 4.2.2 from port A with S-Log and from port B with a LUT to the monitor.

4) There is a reason that LUTs are used with Red cameras, Sony 900's, etc. when you need more out of them. The fastest turn arounds isn't the reason.

@Lenny, I think you're still stuck with 5600k and 3200k.

Another benefit of combining S-Log and a LUT is being able to record that LUT'd image. You can create a custom LUT that looks like a simple grade and yet, still keep the extra DR of S-Log. If you want a flat image for complete manipulation in post, then just record the S-Log without a LUT. But if you want a *final* image while using S-Log, then create a custom LUT with Sony's software, download into the F3 and record the monitor output with LUT applied.

Doug, if you try the custom LUT method, then you might get your desired result of not needing to grade.

Doug, reread the post.

Duke, I did reread your first post and I stand by my reply.

Quote: "But imagine it you had a few custom LUTs to apply to the footage and your grading was pretty much done . . . minor tweaking to finish."

When you say "grading is pretty much done." that sure sounds to me like you expect the LUT to provide your final look. If that is not what you meant, perhaps you could have phrased it differently. I stand by my reply.

BTW, I do have an F3 with S-LOG so I am well aware of the workflow and the purpose of LUTs. Thanks for the refresher!!!

But if you want a *final* image while using S-Log, then create a custom LUT with Sony's software, download into the F3 and record the monitor output with LUT applied.

Doug, if you try the custom LUT method, then you might get your desired result of not needing to grade.

Steve, you seem to know a lot about creating custom LUTs, so let me ask you a few questions:

1) Can Cinegammas be incorporated into a custom LUT or not?

2) Can you create a LUT that will match every single setting of a Picture Profile?

3) Can you perfectly expose simultaneously for a custom LUT and S-LOG at the same time?

4) How will zebras be effected by the custom LUT? Or in other words, how how will I determine the correct exposure for S-LOG (assuming I am not dragging around a waveform monitor) if I am viewing a LUT in the viewfinder?

5) How will I be able to set a custom white balance for the LUT while S-LOG is activated?

Thank you in advance. Your answers will save me a lot of time testing.

Hi Doug,

I haven't had a chance to play around with the Sony LUT software but will do so sometime soon.

1) About cinegammas: I do know that 2 of the included LUTs are designed to replicate a Hypergamma with a grey point of 40 or 33. Also, the "P1: 709" is a very useful LUT which gives a decent S curve while still keeping the entire 13-14 stops of DR. Based off what I have seen and read about these LUTs and my personal experience with LUTs in vfx, I believe it should be possible to make custom LUTs to eliminate grading. For me, I think a simple Curves adjustment in my NLE makes the image look great, which should be simple to make into a LUT.

2) A 3D LUT only affects color; so, no ability to change detail and sharpness settings like a PP.

3) With a LUT applied, the image in the LCD changes; so, if you record from the monitor output, then exposing should be straightforward.

4) I'm not 100% sure about zebras and a LUT because my experience so far has been recording to non-LUT S-Log and I used a TVLogic for judging exposure.

I hope some of this helps :) I am not an *expert* on S-Log, but I like it so much that I am happy to help in any way including conducting tests on my own. So, keep the questions coming, and if I can't answer now, I will make a list and try to test them later this week when I get together with my friend and his F3.

Duke, I did reread your first post and I stand by my reply.

Quote: "But imagine it you had a few custom LUTs to apply to the footage and your grading was pretty much done . . . minor tweaking to finish."

When you say "grading is pretty much done." that sure sounds to me like you expect the LUT to provide your final look. If that is not what you meant, perhaps you could have phrased it differently. I stand by my reply.

BTW, I do have an F3 with S-LOG so I am well aware of the workflow and the purpose of LUTs. Thanks for the refresher!!!

Yes, I probably could have phrased it better. Sorry. It just sounded like you don't like S-Log with a LUT. But perhaps you're still evaluating because of the lack of Mac software.

Any word on when in November this new firmware will be released?

I'll be speaking with my Sony contacts this week. Last they told me was: "Very very soon"

Pardon me if this was answered already in earlier pages, but in Version 1.3 will the image with the LUT applied also be outputted through the HDMI out if that was chosen instead of SDI for the regular output.
That would be important for those of us owning or contemplating buying an HDMI EVF.
Thanks

Hard to say until it is actually available, but as of right now, there is no HDMI output at all when S-LOG is turned on.