I will be talking to their help staff Monday. Maybe there will something coming out of that.

Thanks for blazing the trail for us on this, Chris. You really deserve a lot of thanks from the community both for the work you're doing to get to the bottom of these challenges, but also for sharing the results.

The disconnect between Sony Japan and overseas units (including Sony USA) has been a problem for Sony for a long time, and partly explains why the company's profits and stock price have been declining for some time.

Personally, I am still interested in the camera -- all I need is manual shutter, iris and gain -- I adjust color in post, not in camera.

But I certainly understand where folks in this thread are coming from -- buyers should be very careful when dealing with a company that puts out inaccurate information in its marketing materials.

Cheers,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

Bill:

Last night I started looking a footage I shot during the day, on Friday, in an outdoor setting. Shot everything on cinematone setting. I am playing with it a bit to see how it grades. I too do my settings in post, usually shooting very flat. The cinama tone is not as flat as I would like.

I have lots of questions!

How's the manual audio control? Is it buried deep in menus or can you get to it quickly? Can you control the channels individually? How's the audio quality when fed from external mics - does it have headroom or does it distort easily? I assume it's mic-level only and can't take line-in?

And how is the peaking and focus magnification in use - quick and easy or clumsy? Is the peaking like the 5N - can you choose your color and intensity?

And just confirming, this does have manual control over gain and shutter speed, correct? Can you assign either or both on external controls? Does it have zebras?

thanks!

And I add my thanks also Chris for guinea-pigging this one and especially for sharing your experiences as they unfold. I check here regularly with much interest to read your latest comments.

The not-so-good news might be that Sony is guilty of false, or at least misleading, advertising while the good news, to be expected, is that the image quality right out of the cam is not too shabby. It is still on my wish list but having just purchased the NEX 5n and looking at a repair bill of $2100 NZ for a new lens on my EX1 placing an order won’t happen today.

Again, many thanks for your tireless contribution to the forum.

Cheers...

Bill:The cinama tone is not as flat as I would like.

CinTone is to color grade IN camera so one doesn't need to grade in post. It's the classic Sony filmllok.

What is missing from the VG20:

A set of gamma curves -- one of which is flat for grading in post.

Black streatch.

Black compress.

Adjustable Knee including fixed.

Sharpness.

External mic attenuator

In short. most everything we got on the Z1. But, the Z1 was over $4000. So the FS100 is the new prosumer camera. The VG20 is simply an expensive consumer camcorder. More expensive than then the traditional Sony consumer HD camcorder because it uses a large chip. Many fewer large chips can be made per silicon disc, hence the cost increase. Add to that the cost of an interchangeable lens mount -- and one can see the VG20 as a reasonable camera.

The fact you can get the same image quality and most of the features for only $650 is what creates a choice.

Now we know why Sony didn't give English speaking reviewers models to review.
If it had the same presets as the VG10 and 5n, I would have almost certainly bought this camera (esp given the total lack of new Canon products under $8K).

More than that, I would have bought the stock lens, the wide angle lens, and the wide angle lens fisheye/super wide angle add-on. And that's just to start. Assuming I liked the camera, I would likely have bought other NEX lenses and perhaps cameras - and extra batteries, etc.

This move by Sony seems even more unfriendly then what Canon's done - at least Canon's sales lit didn't lie.

And I'll echo everyone else's comments - thanks for keeping us updated, and def let us know how the Monday phone call goes.

In short. most everything we got on the Z1. But, the Z1 was over $4000. So the FS100 is the new prosumer camera. The VG20 is simply an expensive consumer camcorder. More expensive than then the traditional Sony consumer HD camcorder because it uses a large chip. Many fewer large chips can be made per silicon disc, hence the cost increase. Add to that the cost of an interchangeable lens mount -- and one can see the VG20 as a reasonable camera.

The fact you can get the same image quality and most of the features for only $650 is what creates a choice.

Steve. I was thinking this camera was the FX1 to the FS 100. I bought the FX1, and worked with the parameters there, I think successfully. That is all I wanted to be able to do here.

Thanks for the advice on Cinematone. After having worked with Cinematone last night in some footage shot in daylight, it is clear that it adds some things that give it the look, as you say.

My next test will be to shoot the standard setting and see if putting the footage into Firstlight from Cineform can give an iniitial flatter image to work with. Obviously, it could not widen the dynamic range, but my understanding is that Firstlight acts like change made in the camera.

This camera does have a backlighting adjustment, that you turn on or off. It is auto, though, and you have no capability to alter what it does.

" I was thinking this camera was the FX1 to the FS 100. I bought the FX1, and worked with the parameters there, I think successfully. That is all I wanted to be able to do here."

Thank you! That has been my expectation which I never really understood before.

Sony is not providing a large chip version of the FX1 -- which is what I think we are all looking for.

Panasonic and Canon haven't done so either.

Looks like it is DSLR or an AF100/FS100.

Now here's a question -- is there a major difference between the 5 and the 5n?

Especially if one plans on buying 15-85 and an $50 adaptor for old fully manual SLR lenses

I'm beginning to think the answer is buy the old now cheap one!

Just to let you all know that the manual white balance seems to work pretty cleanly. So if you are used to warming up or cooling your shots a bit, I would first take a manual white balance, using the menu. Then once your white balance is set for the scene, use the separate white balance adjuster to slide it toward red or blue side, The manual white balance works like most Sony white balance systems. Point the camera at something white, and tap the screen at the sample button, and the camera changes. You do have to go into the menu to do that.

Tonight I shot a short scene in the standard setting. I white balanced. I had zebras set at 100 percent, and then shot the scene adjusting exposure to make sure no zebras showed up in view finder.

After that, I converted the file over to a Cineform file, and then opened in FirstLight. There I reset the video output to a Cineon setting, which turned the footage to a softer, and seemingly less contrasty look.

I then opened in Vegas, and added some color and levels corrections, and it seemed work decently. I will play with this a bit more tomorrow.

I have lots of questions!

How's the manual audio control? Is it buried deep in menus or can you get to it quickly? Can you control the channels individually? How's the audio quality when fed from external mics - does it have headroom or does it distort easily? I assume it's mic-level only and can't take line-in?

And how is the peaking and focus magnification in use - quick and easy or clumsy? Is the peaking like the 5N - can you choose your color and intensity?

And just confirming, this does have manual control over gain and shutter speed, correct? Can you assign either or both on external controls? Does it have zebras?

thanks!

1. I haven't tried to mess with volume on sound yet. Adjustment is in menu system. The meter is a strange thing. It is intended to give you readings for all the 5.1 channels if you turn on 5.1 sound. I would rather have the standard levels meter, but I haven't really explored the menu on that to see if you can call up a different meter. I doubt it though, as I don't recall seeing it in manual.

2. Have run with external mics. yet. As I said, I took camera to golf course Friday. It was windy, and I used camera mic. Fairly noisy. But I was about 20 yards from green on one shot, with wind blowing, but I could still hear the golfers talking in regular voice levels. Seems like a nice mic set up, or an on camera affair.

3. So far, I have been shooting mostly auto focus. This is not my norm, but I was curious how well the camera keeps focus, I have shot mostly hand held. I have yet to even push the focus assist button. I will take some time tomorrow on that too. I don't have a 5n so I can't compare those things.

4. And confirming again, yes you can get full control of camera, and adjust iris, shutter speed, gain, as well as white balance shift mentioned above. Also, you can just select "Exposure" and camera will select what things to adjust. This is all done by pushing the Manual button on side of camera, then using the roller to select the parameter you want to adjust. You could even use it to shift the camera exposure level, when the camera is in auto exposure mode,

5. There are two settings for zebras- 70% and 100% If you set at 100%, make sure you elimated zebras from your shot because that area will definitely be in the highlight clipping zone.

There's obviously a lot of support for the NEX5 and 7 - I have a question that I cannot find an answer to.

Despite the NX5n having some settings not available on the VG20, can I operate an NX5 for 3 hours on a large battery, and will it shoot 3 hours of continuous HD - unmanned?

I currently use a VG10 for "snoopy" shots during music session recording, and despite its limitations, it works well, without too much attention, I don't need to change batteries, nor media, which is great, so maybe for me the VG20, with its increased sensitivity and 50P recording might just do the job, I'd love to spend less, as I need 2 units and len's - I simply thought to get 2 body only versions and pick specific lens' to add to my existing stock E mount from the vg10.

thanks for any illumination....

and are you able to upload a tiny tripod mounted slow wide pan shot Chris? just a 28Mb/s at 60P sample - 10 seconds would do it

Thanks


Paul :-)

Paul - sadly, the NEX-5N is limited to 29 minutes of video recording. This is true for both European and North American models. The VG10, VG20 and Panasonic GH1 & GH2 are the only large sensor, interchangeable lens still/video hybrid consumer cams with unlimited recording time (unless you're a "consumer" who can afford a RED cam;-))

Cheers,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

Thanks for that, I note that the GH2 only records 60P at 1280x720 and 60i at 1920x1080 - so the VG20 does have the upper hand in some ways - I need sensitivity, 60P or 50P at full HD, long record times, long battery duration, and the usual manual settings, expanded focus is a bonus, as are zebra's... and being able to switch lens' is a must.

I might find a use for the VG20 yet!

I wonder if you can stuff a 64gb card into it?

oh yes, of course I'll pick up a couple of RED's for sure!!! er, not!



Paul :-)

Paul - sounds like your requirements list is almost the same as mine. I would also add a headphone jack and full manual audio gain control as "must-haves" - which is why I am so interested in the VG20 as a B cam for my GH2.

Bill

From manual:

1. “Memory Stick PRO Duo” media of up to 32 GB and SD cards of up to 64 GB have been verified to
operate with your camcorder.

2 You can adjust the volume when recording. Reset Returns to the normal level.

Tips

We recommend that you use headphones to check the level when adjusting the setting.
Set a lower level to naturally capture continuous loud sound. To capture quieter sound at an
easy-to-hear level, increase this setting. The limiter is always working regardless of the
Audio Rec Level setting.

Thanks Chris,

Good to know, I wonder how long a record duration you can cram onto 64gb at 28Mb/s?

and if the audio quality from the VG20 mics is anywhere near as good as the VG10, I'd be happy, although I only use the audio as a guide, I'm constantly surprised at how good it is, making the audio from my EX1 mics sound awful !

I still use my Tascam DR100 for anything serious.

Paul :-)

Oh no...more things to consider.
Canon Cinema EOS (http://cinemaeos.usa.canon.com/)

more http://cinemaeos.usa.canon.com/products.php?type=Camera&model=C300

Canon EOS C300= $16k
Sony VG20= $2.5k

Let me think on this a while. :>)

Here is some more footage.

I wanted to look at extreme shooting situations, and see how much jellow was produced hand held, and if I could get moire and aliasing. You check it out and make your own decision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VssbNNKiK0

Way better than the VG10, for the money I think the picture looks pretty good, if you then factor in the fact that the next step up (FS100) costs at least 3000 UK pounds more, it looks even better!

Starting to see why Sony pulled back a bit on the features.

The Cinetone colour at the end looks a little strange, was this early morning light or colour corrected?

Thanks Chris

Thanks Chris,

Yes, very interesting and much better than the VG10, but I still see really bad blocky artefacts in still areas of some of the shots - can you verify the data rate at all, is it all shot at 28Mb/s? or is it related to gain settings - I'd love to see a 28Mb/s 0dB indoor lit shot at F3.5, with shadows and dark areas, to see if it is actually clean at these settings, maybe there is a shot or 2 in your compilation that reflects this.

Thanks for all you help

Paul

Way better than the VG10, for the money I think the picture looks pretty good, if you then factor in the fact that the next step up (FS100) costs at least 3000 UK pounds more, it looks even better!

Starting to see why Sony pulled back a bit on the features.

The Cinetone colour at the end looks a little strange, was this early morning light or colour corrected?

Thanks Chris

About the golf shot, I will review what I did this evening. I tried to do as little as possible to these shots. This was actually late afternoon. Because at the time I did not have the right size variable ND, the golf was shot with straight lens. As was noted in an early film from Japan, overexposure is easy to fall into. I had not yet played with zebras till this day, and figured I had some room, but turned out that if zebars are at 100, you will be clipping at those places. That may have more to do with the color issues than anything. With the golf shot, I was mainly testing 60p and slowing the footage to 24p for slow motion effect.

Thanks Chris,

Yes, very interesting and much better than the VG10, but I still see really bad blocky artefacts in still areas of some of the shots - can you verify the data rate at all, is it all shot at 28Mb/s? or is it related to gain settings - I'd love to see a 28Mb/s 0dB indoor lit shot at F3.5, with shadows and dark areas, to see if it is actually clean at these settings, maybe there is a shot or 2 in your compilation that reflects this.

Thanks for all you help

Paul

I am thinking some of the blockiness is from recompression at YouTube. What I will try to do is get some example shots into Vimeo this evening. I can upload original footage if Chris can let me know what to do.

I had not yet played with zebras till this day, and figured I had some room, but turned out that if zebars are at 100, you will be clipping at those places.

Clipping can occur in post or at Utube -- wherever a signal over 100% is sliced off.

For example, with a camera I had when I played to HDTV via HDMI I could see details in clouds. Wow. But, once edit, NO details. Answer -- iMovie will not pass anything greater than 100%.

But, you might want to import your Utube video and see the range. It may make no difference if your NLE passes above 100%.

PS: The missing Contrast control lets you adjust whether a signal greater than 100% can be obtained. If f you can record above 100% then you can allow some 100 Zebra. If you can't then you can not allow any 100% zebra.

I posted a segment from my eBook a few days ago that discusses the Contrast control.

PS: I have never understood using ANY service to compare camrea quality. However, it you want to do this, I recommend Exposure Room.

About the golf shot, I will review what I did this evening.

I am attaching a still lifted from my Vegas time line. You can tell I had to boost levels a lot to get what I got in the end.

Likes:
tonality, slo-mo, detail

Dislikes:
cinematone, moire on the roof tiles


Other:
blocking looks like youtube related artifact

could you answer a quick question that the inaccurate specs do not even bother to mention.

Does the composite video out work during shooting. The reason why I ask is that I have a classic Steadicam JR with a daylight viewable monochrome screen.

This appears to be a perfect match with the 16mm pancake lens for event work, if there is monitor out on composite.

I could forgive the shortcomings if this is possible.

Curtis:

I've had the component HDMI hooked up while shooting, but haven't done the component or composite thing. I will try to check it out later today.

could you answer a quick question that the inaccurate specs do not even bother to mention.

Does the composite video out work during shooting. The reason why I ask is that I have a classic Steadicam JR with a daylight viewable monochrome screen.

This appears to be a perfect match with the 16mm pancake lens for event work, if there is monitor out on composite.

I could forgive the shortcomings if this is possible.

Curtis:

Good news. HDMI, Component video, and composite video all work during recording.

Thanks for taking the time to test the line outs.

One point that needs to be made about the Manual dial:

All adjustments to exposure are in 1/3 stop intervals; it is not continuous. That means that on-the-fly adjustments are going to be visible in the footage. A further annoyance is that the VG10 has detents, so there's no hunting for the next 1/3 stop up or down.

I'll probably return the VG20, attractive as some of its features are. Quite disappointed.