1..As to bit rate, the question has arisen before. When you select in menu, you are advised it shoots 24 mbs in 24p and 60i, 28mbs in 60p. You can go lower on each frame rate, but those are maximum bit rates.

2. HDMI appears clean to me. I plugged into back of my small 15 inch DYNEX TV and image looked good.

3. Next to my FX 1 in looks like a midget, but next to the T2i it looks big.

4. Somehow I had gotten impression the battery charge is separate. Unless I missed something in packaging, it charges just like any other Sony camera... on the camera.

5. Comes with windsock for the mic

6. Comes with shade for the lens.

7. Jury still out on noise and speed, but I think it will keep close to the T2i there, so you probably won't be giving up anything. ( I want to do a side by side with the T2i, 5D, and Vg20.

8. Not seeing any way to adjust contrast, saturation, or sharpness, like is on board the DSLRs....Anyone know any different ?

Hey Chris - first, thanks a ton for the early review! After what I (and many others) consider the total fail of the Canon announcement, any news is good news.

The big thing for me is.... is the VG20 better in low light situations then the T2i? I love the T2i, but that sucker gets pretty dang noisy at 800 ISO or higher.

Hey Chris, what's the slowest shutter speed you can use? Thanks.

Hey Chris - first, thanks a ton for the early review! After what I (and many others) consider the total fail of the Canon announcement, any news is good news.

The big thing for me is.... is the VG20 better in low light situations then the T2i? I love the T2i, but that sucker gets pretty dang noisy at 800 ISO or higher.

I will try some testing tonight, and post something, hopefully.

Hey Chris, what's the slowest shutter speed you can use? Thanks.

there are an amazying amount of low shutter speeds on the film side. Lowest shutter speeds in manual= 1/4, 1/5,1/6,1/8,1/10, 1/13,1/15, 1/20, 1/25, 1/30,1/40, 1/50, 1/60

I just completed some testing the T2i, 5D and VG-20 side by side. I am pleasantly surprised. My preliminary conclusion is that going to the VG 20 may prove to be a step up, despite its price.

The scene was a living room with a single light source, screen right, and a bit of over head light from across the room.

I shot the T2i in the standard style. I shot the 5d in neutral and then in Cynestyle picture style, and the VG 20 with both standard and Cinematone settings. Cameras were shot with settings of 3.5 on the wide angle setting for each, resulting in a very close angle of view.

It would be great if I could upload all the test shots, but I will try to do something with still later this evening with stills

Ultimately I have concluded that I am not really going to lose anything with this camera, over either the t2i or the 5D. Both are noisey at similar settings, but it seems to me that the latitude of the Sony actually is an improvement. In addition, the noise seem softer and more viewable. It will be interesting to see how a denoiser plug may work.

I did some testing in windy conditions earlier in day today to see whether the codec was holding up. This YouTube video will give a feel for how it worked out. It does appear better in full render.

Sony Nex VG 20- Testing for motion artifacts - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrgOR6hblJM)

Looked good to me! I didn't see any banding or blockiness to speak of.

The shutter speed is def an improvement over the T2i...

You can confirm the same 6 presets as 5N/VG10?

The VG20 would seem to have several advantages over the Canon DSLRs - form factor, built in mic, longer record times, manual audio w/o a hack, true viewfinder.

BUT it's all about the end image for me. If it's a stop faster, or just cleaner period, it becomes an almost must have. If we're talking the same basic noise, then a Mark II seems to be the better bet.

Thanks again Chris, and keep it coming!

Here is a look at my noise test. Its long and boring, but compares 5DMarkII, and T2i with VG20 I think I am liking the Sony shot with Cinematone quite a bit. Certainly something to consider.

Testing of Noise In Low Light Sony Nex-VG20 H - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHYRSNjKyn0)

You can confirm the same 6 presets as 5N/VG10?



I cannot confirm any presets. I am not finding any in the manual. Nor can I locate it on menus anywhere. Can you tell me how it was done on the VG10

VG10/ NEX5 Choose -Menu -brightness/colour -Creative style -choose landscape, sunset,port,vivid,std,bw, -Exp, contrast and sharpness dial in settings then appear at bottom of screen.

If you can't find them, i'm thinking the VG20 has a 'split personality' with the NEX menu on the still side and the NX70/cx700 firmware bolted on for the Video?

Looking forward to your tests, from what limited footage I have seen, the VG20 is much improved over the 10

Regards

Hi Paul
Long time no speak. How is Parkstone these days?

I have a good mate buying the VG-20 in around a month. He used a VG-10 for a little while and shot some excellent stuff on that. I'll get him to report back on it when he has it sometime in December.

Cheers

ps. I think i still owe u a Stella, from way back when.

Just viewed the test (which, PS, is exactly the sort of thing I've been looking for - I mean perfect).

Is it my imagination, or is the VG20 producing cleaner images at comperable ISOs than the Canon's? That, or the VG20's grain is just of a finer quality?

What's your gut reaction as to a low light test winner?

Thanks again for posting.

I am not there with real life shooting conditions yet, but I feel that I can work with this camera on the low light level, as well as, or maybe with some more work, better than the Canon 5D. Now that is saying a lot, because I have loved my 5D for my purposes.

The big issue in my mind is that Sony only seems to give us only two shooting styles in this camera--- Cinematone and regular. I haven't found any capability of otherwise adjusting contrast, sharpness and saturation. I am early yet in investigation, and I may have missed it. If true, I want to shoot a bit more in different lighting situations to get more of feel for what that means.

But it seems clear that Sony was threatened that this would be bought in place of the FS100, so they may have removed stuff ( like the shooting presets referenced above) that would give the professional some working room.

After a day though, I do think the image as it is is spectacular, and that it can outshoot the 5D in detail. More to come. may take it to golf course today to see how it handle 60p, etc.

'I have a good mate buying the VG-20 in around a month. He used a VG-10 for a little while and shot some excellent stuff on that. I'll get him to report back on it when he has it sometime in December.'

Please do, the more user reports the better!
Has anyone found the VG20 manual on line yet by the way?

Stu- sent you a pm

Regards

Chris,

Any thoughts you can share on aliasing, moire, and rolling skew would be great.

Thanks,

Bumki

It would be crazy, not to mention false advertising, if the VG20 doesn't have "6 Creative Style Settings" as they mention in their specs of the camera on their website, not to mention it also says so in the description on BH's website product page. It doesn't specify that the settings are just for stills, so there has to be a way to access them.

I just ordered the camera and can't wait to test it out. I'm already in love with the NEX-5n and find the image more cinematic than my FS100. Sure the FS100 is cleaner and sharper, but it looks a little video-like, as does the F3.

I had it out at a golf course today to try 60p, and outdoor shooting. With a lot of sun, and trying to keep shutter at 1/50 while shooting 24p, I had to shoot with iris closed down pretty low. I am also learning some new things about interface that weren't obvious.

Hopefully, I will uncover 6 "creative styles". I thought I had seen that some where too, but wondered if I had gotten it confused with another product. I dont' see it in index of manual. I am attaching manual for all to read. Maybe some of you VG 10 users can dig it out. Meantime, that is what the rest of my Friday night will be about.

Chris, thanks for attaching the handbook. You're right. There is no mention of the Creative styles, but it is clearly in the VG20's specs mentioned everywhere.

This is a HUGE deal! That might mean that Sony got scared it might cannibalize the FS100 sales and deliberately handicapped the VG20 last minute. If this is the case, then we must let the news out as soon as possible in order for all the Blogs to make it public. This way we may try to force Sony into updating it via firmware. There is no way that the NEX-5N has more creative control over video filming that the VG20.

I sure hope you uncover the setting somewhere. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

TRY THIS:


Use the Brightness/Color menu to go to Creative Style. You can now select one of the Styles.

Press the Options (soft-button) to gain access to three image quality items: Contrast Adjustment, Saturation Adjustment, and Sharpness Adjustment.

* All three settings are controlled in the same way.
* Roll the Dial to increase a setting.
* Roll the Dial to decrease a setting.
* Tap the Dial to exit from the image quality items.
* Tap the Dial again to exit from the Creative Style menu.

The maximum setting is +3 and the minimum is setting –3.

Use the Contrast control to increase or decrease contrast.
When contrast is increased, minimum signal values (black level) are lowered while maximum signal values (white level) are increased. Increasing contrast when shooting in a high-contrast situation forces whites to be recorded as a very strong signal—well above 100 IRE.

When contrast is decreased, minimum signal values (black level) values are raised while maximum signal values (white level) are decreased.

If this works you might want to get my NEX eBook. There's a lot to learn! :)

Steve:

These are all unfamiliar terms from the Menu system I have on board. I am guessing they have rearranged this whole menu system ? Have you actually seen the camera yet ??


Here are items I have been trying to figure where they are, as posted in Sony's Features ad for this camera:

Eight White Balance Modes:

These help you get the shot by optimizing the camera for specific shooting situations. Select from Auto, Daylight, Shade, Cloudy, Incandescent, Fluorescent, Flash, and Custom modes.

Only 4 settings i can find- auto, custom, incadescent, daylight..


Six Creative Style settings

Control how the camera processes your images with six finishing styles: Standard, Vivid, Portrait, Landscape, Sunset and B&W. You can even fine-tune contrast, saturation, and sharpness to your personal taste.

Cannot locate it.

Dynamic Range Optimizer (DRO):

Dynamic Range Optimizer improves results with backlit subjects and recovers details hidden in shadows while maintaining highlight detail. Settings include Auto, Level with a choice of five operating levels and Off.

Unable to locate in book or on menu system.

It would be crazy, not to mention false advertising, if the VG20 doesn't have "6 Creative Style Settings" as they mention in their specs of the camera on their website, not to mention it also says so in the description on BH's website product page. It doesn't specify that the settings are just for stills, so there has to be a way to access them.

I just ordered the camera and can't wait to test it out. I'm already in love with the NEX-5n and find the image more cinematic than my FS100. Sure the FS100 is cleaner and sharper, but it looks a little video-like, as does the F3.
______________________________________________________________________________________

I dont have my VG 20 yet....but I have the Nex 5N. What ever setup you use on stills in the 5N are used when switching to video. On the VG20, are the 6 creative styles available in a separate "stills mode menu"..... Just a guess.

new youtube video with clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTy0sTCvl6g
Jeff

Just not seeing it. Anywhere.

Here is what menus operate like. See anything close to the 5n ?

Are There Missing Menu's in Sony Nex VG20H ? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEq6Mi9vRhM)

Yes, the menu is different than the 5N...
The 5n has a "brightness/color" click on the main menu. This contains the "creative style presets" etc. This is NOT on the VG20 it seems. Try selecting "stills" mode to see if the brightness/color menu appears.

Look here........ Sony Alpha NEX-5N Touch Screen Menus - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_PV6oPsPIg)

Jeff

Reading the manual it's now clear that unlike the VG10 which was born out of the original NEX-5's identical firmware and still camera divisions take on video, the VG20 has been passed over to the traditional Video division who have based the firmware menu structure for video and stills on the CX700/NX70

That opens up a few interesting scenario's that might work for or against choices

1/ Keep or buy the original VG10 to match with the newer NEX5N or NEX7

2/ If you have the NX70/CX700 and want to mix footage Buy the VG20

One thing I would NOT do is buy the VG20 with the view that you will have a chance of getting a firmware update giving you creative control over colour/sharpness out of Sony, as the Video division has dumped that choice for quite a while now on the last few CX models

Paul,
Good point..thanks.

I just noticed BH photo is changing their product description on the VG 20 with lens.
Sony NEX-VG20H Interchangeable Lens HD Handycam NEXVG20H B&H

Jeff

Steve:

These are all unfamiliar terms from the Menu system I have on board. I am guessing they have rearranged this whole menu system ? Have you actually seen the camera yet ??


Here are items I have been trying to figure where they are, as posted in Sony's Features ad for this camera:

Eight White Balance Modes:

These help you get the shot by optimizing the camera for specific shooting situations. Select from Auto, Daylight, Shade, Cloudy, Incandescent, Fluorescent, Flash, and Custom modes.

Only 4 settings i can find- auto, custom, incadescent, daylight..


Six Creative Style settings

Control how the camera processes your images with six finishing styles: Standard, Vivid, Portrait, Landscape, Sunset and B&W. You can even fine-tune contrast, saturation, and sharpness to your personal taste.

Cannot locate it.

Dynamic Range Optimizer (DRO):

Dynamic Range Optimizer improves results with backlit subjects and recovers details hidden in shadows while maintaining highlight detail. Settings include Auto, Level with a choice of five operating levels and Off.

Unable to locate in book or on menu system.

DRO is stills only.

FLASH is only for stills.
 Set [White Balance] to [Auto] or adjust the color in [One Push] under white or cool white fluorescent lamps.


There are four camera "modes" it seems:

Press the MODE button to Photo or Still

Use the MENU soft key to select Photo or Still.

My best GUESS is that setting physical MODE to Still will get you a different set of menu options than if you select Movie.

My hope is that in Still MODE you'll find one of the six LCD menus will have Creative Styles sub-menu from which you can get to the adjustments you want. They should apply to movies.

ALSO, look closely at every menu. Sony "hides" EXTRA content selections that are related to the item you are working with here. For example, the +/- lets you trim a WB setting by using the dial. The Custom WB setting lets you define your own Color Temp in degrees or your own Color Filter (G to Mg).

You may find the "missing" WB options here too -- for stills only.

You will need a Vario ND filter to get shallow DOF in bright light at 1/60th.

Steve

It's not going to happen.

The NEXVG20 has clearly left the NEX family and moved over to the Video side.(firmware at least)

If it was available we would have found it by now in the manual

Sony USA has cut and pasted the VG10 and VG20 details, a bad mistake, but nothing new for them, check the UK site plus the eu press release, no mention of any of the 'missing' features, Spec just as Chris's VG20 apart from pal frame rates

So how does the lack of preset/effects menu in the VG20, affect your opinion of the overall camera?
Will this keep you from purchasing the VG20 over the VG10?

Thanks,
Jeff

So how does the lack of preset/effects menu in the VG20, affect your opinion of the overall camera?
Will this keep you from purchasing the VG20 over the VG10?

Thanks,
Jeff

Not at all, yes would be nice to have the creative menu, but on the plus side apart from improved picture quality the VG20 gives me manual Gain, touch spot meter and focus. I use and like the cine gamma setting on the NX70 and CX700 and of course 50/60p is very handy

Perhaps we should be more careful what we wish for in the future. The VG10 forum spent a long time bemoaning the fact that there was no point in buying the VG10 over the NEX-5 for so much more money and just the same picture quality and feature set
I think Sony picked up on this, now in there eyes you have to make a clear choice - Handycam or NEX

Steve

It's not going to happen.

The NEXVG20 has clearly left the NEX family and moved over to the Video side.(firmware at least)

If it was available we would have found it by now in the manual

It's not in the manual I suspect. I was shocked at what I found by using the VG10 vs what I read in the manual.

On the other hand, as you say, Sony USA screws things-up.

Frankly not having Creative Styles makes no difference to me. And, the amount of adjustment is so slight I never used them. The VG20 is still far more adjustable than the VG10.

But, just like last year, I think I would go with the NEX-5n.

Please confirm this:

In summary, there is no means of changing the sharpness, contrast and color saturation of the image.

Not at all, yes would be nice to have the creative menu, but on the plus side apart from improved picture quality the VG20 gives me manual Gain, touch spot meter and focus. I use and like the cine gamma setting on the NX70 and CX700 and of course 50/60p is very handy

______________________________________________________
I was hoping you would say that....I have one on order.
The presets are not a big issue. Everything can be changed in post anyway.

I think the 5N and VG20 will make a great combo.
Thanks,
Jeff
__________________

Please confirm this:

In summary, there is no means of changing the sharpness, contrast and color saturation of the image.

Thus far, only method of affecting that is by selecting the Cinematone mode. It looks to me like Cinematone reduces contrast and saturation and sharpness, which is what I am looking for. Then you can adjust exposure level in manual mode. But there is no method of independently adjusting from what I can tell.

This is big issue to me, because I would like to set up camera with Cinemastyle shooting and add .luts in post.

I had an IM chat with Sony support last night. They didn't even have the manual yet. I was told to call a number today to talk with live support. I will report back when I have talked to them.

Again its these three advertized features right of the website that are bugging me as not being there:

Eight White Balance Modes
These help you get the shot by optimizing the camera for specific shooting situations. Select from Auto, Daylight, Shade, Cloudy, Incandescent, Fluorescent, Flash, and Custom modes.
Only 4 settings..

Six Creative Style settings
Control how the camera processes your images with six finishing styles: Standard, Vivid, Portrait, Landscape, Sunset and B&W. You can even fine-tune contrast, saturation, and sharpness to your personal taste.

Dynamic Range Optimizer (DRO)

Dynamic Range Optimizer improves results with backlit subjects and recovers details hidden in shadows while maintaining highlight detail. Settings include Auto, Level with a choice of five operating levels and Off.

But, just like last year, I think I would go with the NEX-5n.

Well, I think if I was using this for event shooting, the mic itself seems pretty nice on board. The whole sound issue with DSLR is eliminated. IF you want to go off camera or XLR, you still have mount an adapter, but I think a simple and cheap unpowered one is all that is needed.

I have never shot the Sony still cameras for film. I have use 5D and T2i extensively. I shot it hand held yesterday at a golf course, and it seemed so much more comfortable. To shoot my DSLR as comfortably, I have to mount them on a should mount. With the in lens stabilizer, and a lot of care, hand held can be accomplished with more ease.

I assume lens would stabilize in the 5n too. But I have maintained since I got my 5d that the reason these DSLR and still cameras show so much skew and such, is that people shoot them hand held with no support. A camera like the Vg20 has as different rotational axis introduced in movement than the still cameras, and that gets eliminated when still cameras are mounted on support devices, while the video camera design shape might get away without it.

Can I ask if the 60i is really interlaced or is it 60p in an i container, as with the VG10 which only shot 30p and the 60i was "fake" with each field carrying the same information.

thanks

Paul

Paul, menu system shows 60i and 60p as well as 24p. In 60i there are 4 levels of bitrate available:

24, 17, 9, 5.

Vegas reports it as:

Video: 00:00:09.009, 29.970 fps interlaced, 1920x1080x12, AVC
Audio: 00:00:09.009, 48,000 Hz, Stereo, Dolby AC-3

Its report upper and lower fields.

Seems like regular interlaced video to me. Do you have a test specifically or another way of determining.

I call the Sony support department today, at number given by online chat last night.

Sony Support guy was nice, but said their internal stuff said camera was not being released until the ninth. Obvious internal miscommunication. He apologized, and asked me to call back on Monday when they should have the manual and such on board. I tried to get him to give me an email so I could send the links I have generated, but he did not want that. He seemed to believe that he would be able to find the features. I left it at that.

Hi Chris,

Well with the advent of flat screen monitoring it's becoming more difficult to detect fields, I have a JVC HD tube monitor for grading attached to my system, Edius allows me to select which field I can view during pause in an interlaced project, so it is easy to see positional differences between the 2 fields on a fast moving object, Premiere Pro also has this feature.

Paul :-)

Paul:

I check out it Premiere Pro.... yeap, it appears to be true interlaced. When I select a frame and switch between field view in the source monitor on a panning scene, there was slight difference between the two frames. To me, that confirms true 60i.

Very interesting that B&H removed the VG20 product description - interesting in a bad way.

While I certainly wouldn't have expected the ability to alter the image as the FS100 can, I would expect the same presets from the VG10 and 5n to be available - esp as they were advertised at multiple places as being on the camera. The "sunset" preset in particular was of interest to me.

Chris - could you describe exactly what presets there are? Sounds like only two options - "Plain" and "Cinetone" (plus white balancing).

Is this correct?

Hi John:

Yes, its seems that there are only two presets available, as you defined. These seem to be only way of varying contrast, sharpness and saturation. To be fair, I think the Cinematone mode does get me close to what I want to allow a decent amount of color correction in post, but I would probably like to flatten things a bit more if I had adjustments available.

There are a couple of ways to adjust exposure in the camera.

When you are in Manual mode, you press the Manual button on side of camera, and screen brings up selections of Exposure, Gain (for movie), IRIS, Shutter speed, AE shift, and white balance shift.

You do not have to have LCD open, as selection is made by pushing the manual button again.

When camera is set at manual mode:

1. It looks like to me that Exposure operates on Gain, IRIS, and Shutter speed, in that order as adjustments are made, based on predetermined levels Sony has assigned as the best pick. Adjustment is made turning a roller next to the manual button. Feels a lot like the focus roller on my old Canon HV20.

2, If Gain, IRIS, or Shuter Speed are individually selected, the camera shifts only the selected parameter.

3. White balance shift can also be selected, to finally tune white balance, as initially set. To set white balance initially, you go into Menu (LCD open) and select either Day light or Incadescent, auto, or set up a custom white balance. Once out of there, it looks like you adjust further with the roller and manual set button. Actually probably not that bad in all of those.

4, If the camera is in AutoExposure mode, as selected in Menu, then you can adjust exposure level still using AE shift. I think this is ideal to discourage Sony's tendancies to let their standard exposures wash out.

There are sliders in the Menu system to accomplish these things in the camera too, but the manual button is handy, it seems to me.

Just need some way to affect contrast, sharpness, and saturation and it would be nice to have somewhere to store preset settings.

Chris, forget shooting movies for a moment and switch to Photo mode.

Are you saying there are no Creative Styles for shooting photos?

You certainly should see FLASH listed as a WB option.

Do you see +/- beside each WB setting?

Steve:

When I go to flash section under Camera/Mic when in Photo mode, I get three selections: flash, flash level, red eye reduction. When I try to select, it won't let me because I am supposed to have a flash attached.

Under image Quality, Size, only have Image Size, Raw/Jpeg.

Still only four options under white balance-- auto, daylight, incandescent, custom. I am guessing camera autosets WB with flash invoked.

.

Do you see +/- beside each WB setting?

This is not there either.

Thanks a lot for all the time you've put in Chris. I think we should just give up and accept that Sony deliberately crippled the VG20.

I love the NEX 5N and was hoping that the vg20 would give me the ability to manually control audio, and especially be able to tweak the image as the 5n does. I also hoped to not have the overheating issue. But once again Sony has let me down.

I've cancelled my order with B&H.

Sounds more like they just decided to "simplify" the menu systems for a prosumer cam... and someone forgot to pass it along to the web site manager. I wouldn't expect a lot more from a phone CS rep... voice of experience...

Chris - DRO is strictly a STILLS feature, which typically uses multiple exposures to improve the latitude of a still shot - not terribly practical for "moving pictures". IF it's not in the stills menu, I'd be rather surprised, but suppose it's possible.


More and more the 5n looks like the "bargain", and it is quite strange that features in the 5n firmware didn't pass over to the VG20. The VG20 again looks like a very nice, but overpriced camera, sort of staying in the same path as the VG10. It'll sell to those who walk into a store and ask to buy "the best", but don't even know why they'd want the "extra" features... and it will sell to those who appreciate what it WILL do and want a video camera form factor with a big chip. So far video samples look like it's a pretty significant step up from "last years model".



I'm getting more used to shooting the "still camera form factor" with the HX100V and the A55/580. Toss a small folding flash bracket onto the left side and it's a pretty darn nice handheld setup. Too bad there's limited manual control, but at least there's exposure compensation...

The NEX7 design still looks to me like the ultimate in control, with my finger itching to find a lightly used NEX5n on the cheap in the meantime...

I'd like to share a review I came across from Slashcam. They seem to have the same issues we have. Here's the Google translate link as I think it's in German.

Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashcam.de%2Fartikel%2FTest%2FSony-NEX-VG20---Zweiter-Anlauf.html)

I remember when folks first read about the VG10 and expressed their shock at how much Sony crippled it. Here we are a year later -- and shocked once again.

And, last year Sony USA claimed the camera shot 60i. This year they market it with wrong information.

This is beginning to feel like Vista and Windows 7.