Someone at IBC posted pictures of a new Canon camera... looks like an XL2 but all black. Obviously still a mockup, as there was nothing printed on it at all except for two things: "Canon" and "HDV".

Where are these pictures, Barry? I know you are a trustworthy source, but without proof, this thread may have to go to Area 51. :-)

-gb-

Never mind Barry, I just found out where they were. Should have known because of your other camera affiliation.

=gb=

http://www.larssteenhoff.com/blog/pictures/ibc/DSC_4410.JPG
http://www.larssteenhoff.com/blog/pictures/ibc/DSC_4342.JPG
http://www.larssteenhoff.com/blog/pictures/ibc/DSC_4408.JPG

Now, granted, it looks like all they did was spray-paint an XL2 black and put an HDV sticker on it. But still, it portends what they have in mind!

Just went to the other site and looked closely at the pictures. The only visible difference from the XL-2 (aside from being black), is the presence of two buttons above what would be the exposure lock on the XL-2. The lens looks like someone took the 20X and spray painted it black. Hmmmm....

=gb=

Maybe Canon will offer an XL3 upgrade kit that includes a can of black spray paint and an HDV sticker? ;-)

Can't wait to see some specs on this.

Maybe Canon will offer and XL3 upgrade kit that includes a can of black spray paint and an HDV sticker? ;-)

They will also include instructions on what keys to press when powering up the XL-2 to put it in HDV mode. AKA, the buttons above the exposure lock are the only visible difference. This must be a mock-up and not a real working camera. I bet those buttons are a focus assist of some type so that you can focus with the color vf which appears to be identical to the XL-2. We'll just have to wait a bit and see.

=gb=

Actually I think the Sony FX1 was first shown as a mockup at IBC and it bore the model number "DSR-000."

It looks like it was dipped in chocolate. If they do release HDV this soon after the XL-2 release, there are sure to be some PO'd XL-2 owners.

Ohhhh great- and I just bought the Sony- woulda rather had a Canon HDV with interchangeable lenses...........anyone want a 1 week old FX1?

Barry and Greg,

Yeah, tough to say for sure, but my wife and I also suspect this is trickery. Here's our thoughts after taking a close look (thanks to my wife's sharp eye and facility with Photoshop):

- TOO identical to an XL2 in form, right down to each button location, size, and shape -- but NO button marks.

- Multiple possible signs of image editing...not even a mockup but an altered image. (probable clone mark on the cover to the 1394 port at the rear, multiple areas of texture change where text appears to have been erased/cloned over, the seam for the audio door is "airbrushed" out on the DSC_4342 image...oops!)

- When is the last time that Canon showed a crude non-working mockup for a major camera announcement?

- The person at DVXuser who posted the pictures shows as a brand new member; registered in Sep 2005...maybe registered just to post fake pics?

There have been no reports back from our DVi reps at IBC yet. But I'm going to bite the bullet and call this fake and move the thread to AREA 51 unless and until we get some independent confirmation. If I fooled myself, and it IS real, we can move it to the new Canon HD forum (that doesn't exist yet!)

Exciting times!

That must be a bogus camera. Just an XL2 spray painted. That or at least I hope that's not the stock shipping version, notice, no real manual lens by the looks of things.

Aaron

I'm going to bite the bullet and call this fake

Great; that means there's still a chance that the real XL3 will have a cup holder....

I agree. Canon has not been one in the past to throw a mock-up camera out there.

I did just think of something, though. Is it possible to put a camera out that is HDV AND HD-DVC Pro? Now that I'm thinking about it, why didn't Panny do this? That way, you can use the tape deck for long form HD stuff, but go higher bit rates for the b'cast and indy stuff? I guess it would mean it was an HD only camera...no SD, but it sure seems interesting. I would love it if Canon did something like this, though I seriously doubt they will.

Kevin

I could be wrong also but this really seems bogus. I agree that this is totally out of character for Canon. They typically wait for a real working model before they anounce it and this lacks the usual polish that you see from them....so I tend to think it's bogus. Plus there is all kinds of news reports from IBC and no one has even mentioned this. Even if it's just HDV, it is still news worthy as it is Canon.

I smell a fake. And judging by the way that looks I hope I am right. I am not a huge fan of the "white" look of the XL2 but I like the it better than "black beauty" there!

I agree with Pete Bauer's wife. I looked at a couple of the images with Photoshop and see the same artifacts. In the first image at the edge of the camera right of the top set of volume controls there are pixels that form a right angle and do not blend with the background.

But beyond the pixels the exposure of this image seems screwy to me. I am wondering what kind of digital camera gets a very bright background (100% in the upper right) and such detail on the dim camera body. Also, in the first image, the depth of field from the viewfinder (fuzzy, no detail) to the camera body does not seem believable to me.

If you look in the directory those pics were stored, he has other pics from IBC, so he obviously was there.

I suspect it's what the camera will look like, minus the printing for buttons so the mockup or whatever it is will have "impact".

I'm sure we'll know more on Thursday morning.

I agree that this is totally out of character for Canon. They typically wait for a real working model before they anounce it and this lacks the usual polish that you see from them....You would think that, probably due to my constant hammering on that particular consistency of theirs. However... it hasn't *always* been this way. For example the first public showing of the XL1 was back in 1997 at MacWorld, and it was just a wooden mock-up under glass. Never mind that they haven't done that since... the point is, they *have* done it before. It's just highly irregular for them.

Well, it sure does make sense that it would be the EASIEST way to get into the market quickly. If Canon was caught with their pants down (thinking they'd have a hit with the XL2 only to have the entire interest turn towards HDV), then I can totally see them saying "use everything about the XL2 and just get the HDV camera out now."

I love my XL2, but I seriously think they came to market with it about a year or year and a half late. Wow, 24p?! Sigh...come on, Canon. Maybe the whole "last in" thing just doesn't work as well these days.

So, if these pics are correct and it's just an HDV version of the XL2, I guess I will get one take a big loss selling my XL2. I'm sure it will look excellent for HDV. However, I am constantly disappointed with terms of "revolutionary" when things are hardly that. IF this is just an HDV version of the XL2, it's MUCH more evolutionary. I still hope/wish that Canon gave us something from their "pro" division...and better than HDV.

Kevin

By the way, for all XL2 owners who would like a free upgrade, send your camcorders to me. I have a garage, an airbrush, and plenty of flat black paint. No masking tape required.

Ugh...that's depressing, Chris. A simlar joke on the DVX board said "paint and an HDV sticker."

Seriously, if this is the real deal, I wonder if they'd have some sort of upgrade plan. I guess not and don't remember them ever doing something like that, but if it was ever warranted...it is now. 1 year old XL2 already finished? (I'm assuming that this "XL3-HDV" would also shoot DV...making the XL2 basically obsolete.)

I can't wait to be "officially disappointed" next week.

Kevin

I really don't get this attitude from the XL2 owners. What the heck is Canon supposed to do? Just wait a good interval so you all feel like you "got your value" while they're losing market share because they're sitting on a product? I don't think so. The XL2 is great, but it was too little too late, and we all knew it when it came out.

My only hope is that if Canon does implement an HDV2 1080p24 mode, they have the brains to make sure the MPEG-2 codec goes at the images with progressive flags, does 2:3:3:2, and has "drop" frame flag for the middle one.

-Steve

If there is any truth to this why are we not hearing any legitimate news regarding it? This one guy is the onlu one to see it at the show? Nobody is asking questions? No other person there saw it or is it just "drab" in comparison to the almighty HVX debut that no one cares? I am really wondering why I am getting bombarded with emails about all the new products and software releases at the show but nothing about anything there that is Canon.

Chris,
I agree that this could be legit and just "not usual" operating procedures but why no press coverage or any other coverage? Even a few independent people at the show to confirm this would give it credibility. I am still very doubtful. The only good news if this were true is that my 16x manual lens would theoretically be compatible with the lens mount. And it's already black so it would match!

For what it is worth I personally can't see any photoshop work on the camera in those images. Like someone said earlier this is in a folder with other photos so that adds legitamacy to the photos. My theory was just based on track record of Canon...not on the qulaity of the photos.

Please, Steven, don't be too hard on us. :-) Sympathy is much more friendly sounding. I think many of us that know Canon product releases pretty well, thought that this was the best Canon would have out for a couple years. That's not a crazy notion if you read these boards and many others or if you look over their product release history.

I will be very glad if they break that cycle and get something really groundbreaking out now. But am I not allowed to feel a little depressed or bitter having just shelled out $4500 12 months ago? Jeeze, gimme a break.

My actual disappointment is that it's not HUGE jump to HD, if it is only to HDV. Some may argue that, but so far I've seen little from the JVC or SONY's that has blown me away compared to some of the shots I've gotten with the XL2.

My $.02...

Kevin

Looks either fake or Canon's design department has got some explaining to do! It really does look like a spray paint job. Unfortuately, it does look real to me.

Is it just me or did any of you feel very underwhelmed upon looking at the photos. I want to be impressed. Even though I didn't buy the new JVC...I was very impressed with the look and feel of it in photos and in person.

It's probably time for me to buy an interchangeable lense camera, but I think the JVC looks more HDV than these photos. Of course, we'll see..

By the way, if Canon bypassed the HDV thing and went solid state (cheaper than Panny) they'd kill all of them...maybe they will? This could be a trick to make it even more of a surprise when they announce!

C'mon, think about this, video fans! Canon's got a block of painted wood and plastic under plexiglass with an "HDV" sticker on it...while the competition is displaying a working model that does 1080/60i + 1080/24p + 720/60p camera at up to 100mb/sec? And nobody's reporting this but a newbie at a specialty site for that very competition?

Puh-LEASE! NO. STINKIN'. WAY. I still say it is a fake done with the guy's Nikon Capture Editor (check the metadata in the pictures -- anything useful is stripped out, except the software info in the advanced section).

Canon will do better than this, either at Canon Expo or not too long thereafter. And you know, I used to think that the WunderKam would totally kill new XL2 sales. A new camera would have to hurt the XL2, but now I'm thinking it may be viable for a while. After all, if they ARE going to trump Panasonic somehow, the WunderKam will have to be at least as expensive as the HVX200, which still leaves a lower price point for the XL2 to compete in for at least a while (maybe the $3500 range?). Not everyone will drop the kind of cash it takes for an HVX200 or a WunderKam for their market niche...plenty of folks who COULD have gotten HDV cameras have not done so (a few quite vocally like some of our WEVA types) because their customers aren't ready to pay for HD shooting that they can't stick in their DVD player yet. They'll be happy to pick up another XL2 at a good price for the couple more years of good use they can get from it.

That was too many words to say, "This is bogus. It's too soon to be disappointed!"

C'mon, think about this, video fans! Canon's got a block of painted wood and plastic under plexiglass with an "HDV" sticker on it...while the competition is displaying a working model that does 1080/60i + 1080/24p + 720/60p camera at up to 100mb/sec? And nobody's reporting this but a newbie at a specialty site for that very competition?

Puh-LEASE! NO. STINKIN'. WAY. I still say it is a fake done with the guy's Nikon Capture Editor (check the metadata in the pictures -- anything useful is stripped out, except the software info in the advanced section).

Canon will do better than this, either at Canon Expo or not too long thereafter. And you know, I used to think that the WunderKam would totally kill new XL2 sales. A new camera would have to hurt the XL2, but now I'm thinking it may be viable for a while. After all, if they ARE going to trump Panasonic somehow, the WunderKam will have to be at least as expensive as the HVX200, which still leaves a lower price point for the XL2 to compete in for at least a while (maybe the $3500 range?). Not everyone will drop the kind of cash it takes for an HVX200 or a WunderKam for their market niche...plenty of folks who COULD have gotten HDV cameras have not done so (a few quite vocally like some of our WEVA types) because their customers aren't ready to pay for HD shooting that they can't stick in their DVD player yet. They'll be happy to pick up another XL2 at a good price for the couple more years of good use they can get from it.

That was too many words to say, "This is bogus. It's too soon to be disappointed!"

I agree with you in so many ways Pete but I wish I had your convictions. The pictures looked real enough to me upon quick review. I suppose if you looked at the metadata of the images and there is something in there that doesn't jive with the other photos taken at the IBC show then you have a point. They should all have similar information if they are indeed all taken with the same cam at the same show. I am just not 100% sure. I am hoping you are right!

I don't have a photo editor here on the laptop so I can't do a thorough examination. I'll defer to Pete on this one. It does seem odd that somehow only 1 individual would have any info or news about this so-called new Canon camera. I smell a rat. And to answer Murph, I was definitely underwhelmed.

=gb=

Well, I think our own Rob Lohman is about to go in, so hopefully we'll hear from him soon.

This is sooooo whack!! It's funny because that DVXuser thread started with a bunch of rumor talk, exactly like here, and all the sudden out of nowhere this guy pops in and kinda goes... oh, and by the way, here's the new XL-3.
What??!!!!! That's how we're introduced to the new XL camcorder????Nobody else saw it there?? No official announcements?
I'm confused because the guy seemed legit and offered several HVX pictures.
Whether it's the real thing or not, I'm highly unimpressed.

No doubt we will get some more solid information soon, but I have seen a brief report from someone else who was at IBC and he mentioned a black painted HDV XL2 in a glass case, but said that Canon staff were completely tight lipped about it.

So I'm risking a bet on this being a teasing statement of intent from Canon. It does make some sort of sense. The general verdict is that the XL2 was not a well timed release, and I suspect that sales have been disappointing.

Look at how Panasonic have trailed the HVX200 well before it's available. Some people who would have bought a Sony Z1 have held off for the HVX200. If Panasonic had only announced the HVX200 a month before it was available then they would have lost those sales to Sony.

Even if it is real it will obviously be some time before stock is on the shelves and freely available (well into 2006?), so XL2 buyers still have time to get some mileage out of their machines.

Fake pictures or not, that wont be the camera. You can speculate all day why they would use a bogus dummy camera. Anywhere from last minute panic to get SOMETHING in the showcase to a clever deception tactic to make their announcement even grander.

They wont render their flagship camera obsolete...they wont use the same lens....they wont use the same BAD viewfinder and for the love of GAWD they WILL put markings on it. I cant believe you guys are getting worked up about this. I mean, if this WAS the camera, then sure it would be lame but its not.... period, endstop....




ash =o)

Chris, time to move this topic out of Area 51....

I hearby CONFIRM the coming of an HDV XL-style camear from Canon.

The pictures that have been posted are genuine.

The Canon reps here at the show are not aloud to talk abotu it. There will be a full formal announcemtnat the Canon Expo in NY in a few days.

And therefor that is all i can tell you about it. ..except that i does look considerably better in person than from the pics.. it's not just a shotty spray paint job.. but I doubt it's a production moddle either.

- Mikko

Ok, so...

It's like that girl you know who wears coke bottle glasses, hair tied back and everyone thinks she's a plain jane. However, underneith all that is a hottie?

I hope so! :)

Chris, time to move this topic out of Area 51....

I hearby CONFIRM the coming of an HDV XL-style camear from Canon.

The pictures that have been posted are genuine.

The Canon reps here at the show are not aloud to talk abotu it. There will be a full formal announcemtnat the Canon Expo in NY in a few days.

And therefor that is all i can tell you about it. ..except that i does look considerably better in person than from the pics.. it's not just a shotty spray paint job.. but I doubt it's a production moddle either.

- Mikko

Per this post by Mikko, this thread is moved from Area 51 and to the Digital Video Industry News forum. Thanks for the independent confirmation Mikko.

=gb=

Lars has posted his Canon HDV photos to our image gallery... the link is:

http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/browseimages.php?c=27

Lars, welcome to DVinfo. The pictures you've shared appear to be down-rezzed versions. Any chance you can share the original pictures (full resolution), and post any other information you may have learned? Thanks in advance!

Maybe we should move this back to area 51.

The person who told me the camera was coming three days. Didn't give me any information.

Now I don't know if he knows more or not about specs.

But he did say that he thought that Canon had been sitting back looking at the market.

Seeing what everyone was doing and then top that.

So maybe 1080p at 24p in 60p so the pull down would pull out the frames needed. Maybe recording to a hard drive, etc.

I'd say maybe even more than one frame rate.

Yeah, let's keep this thread for actual observations and links to official reports, and any speculation can go in one of the several threads on this subject in AREA 51.

I sure wish I could go to Canon Expo next week!

I'm half way there now across the country.

But next week I'll be back in California for two weeks working on my house.

So should I sell my XL2 now or wait to see fi there will be an upgrade path for current XL2 owners ?

Boy, I do like that black.

Ummm.... XL2S? The XL2, but now with HDV!!! *sarcasm* "Yay"!

It would be amazing if it were uncompressed HDV (since there is NO such thing), but I don't see what it could offer unless it recorded straight to laptop hard drives. Maybe they actually did get the formfactor right so original XL-lenses can work with it? Good for people with XL1/S's and XL2's, but what about those going in for the first time?

I'm just speculating and I'm honestly as excited and giddy as everyone else about it. I wonder what Canon's going to say. =D

Jack, I am exited too, but it's - somebody correct me if I'm wrong - impossible to let the lenses of the XL1/XL1s/XL2 to be compatible with a HDV version of an XL2. Because I think you need a lens that can resolve more resolution than your SD lens.

Decoy camera hopefully.
Kind of like what Chevy would do back in the seventies with some of their emissions strangulated vehicles. Doll the car up in flat black paint trim and stripes and re-package it as a "GT" with no other drastic improvements.
I'm sure Canon knows better than this.
Design issues aside, they really need to drop a high-yield nuclear device at the announcement phase or the party may well be over.
I really want Canon to do this right as I'm sure everyone else does.
The 15th seems so far off...

I have no new information on this camera, as Canon wouldn't say anything, however I took some better quality pics of it that are up at www.camcorderinfo.com
There will be more pictures tommorow.

- Mikko

Thanks for the link! Wow, I guess it's real. So, supposing they use something similar to JVC's ProHD that allows for 720/24p, does anyone else think this is another "too little, too late" debut for Canon? The only way they could make it stand out above the JVC is if they introduce HDV at 1080/24p. This would make it a step above the HD100, but still HDV so not as good as HVX200's 1080/24p DVCProHD. If it's only 720/24p HDV, I can't see it doing too well, unless they have something else up their sleeve.

They have potentially have a few things up their sleve:
First off is the fact that HDV is still cheap-long-format HD.. (consumers want cheap more than they want good. [VHS vs BETA]
then as they havent' released a ship date yet, there is always the possibilty (i'd almost bet the case) that they could ship before the HVX..
..and who knows what else it'll do.

- Mikko

Interesting news. But I have to agree I don't see this camera stilling JVC's thunder, unless it offers more. If it's just 720p 24,25 and 30, I don't think it will be much of a hit, unless Canon drops the price dramatically bellow the HD100. Just knowing Canon's products, this camera will most likely follow the XL series design very closely. The body seems to be identical apart of the color. That means no larger LCD display, no real iris ring and all the semi-professional menus and commands from the XL2. All against fully professional menus and features form the JVC. The HD100 just has a better and more professional form factor. This Canon HDV also seems to ship with a 20x OIS style of lens, where the JVC ships with a fully manual professional lens, with a real iris ring. You know, painting a camera full black doesn't make it professional.
Anyway, I think Canon is again, too late on the game and barely playing catch up. Since I really doubt this camera will have more professional features than the XL2 or will shoot 1080 24p or even 720p other than what the HD100 already does, if it shoots 24p at all, I don't see how Canon would beat JVC. The 24p feature is a JVC modification. So maybe this will shoot 1080i only?
Another question is, are they actually developing HD XL lenses or are they just using the XL2 SD lenses? That lens looks just like a 20x sprayed black. My guess is this will be nothing more than a HDV XL2. In this case, it will most likely not be competition for the more professional HD100. We will see how it develops.