Sometimes I think we might be overthinking the gear. What I mean is this. we look at every camera like the AC90 (btw, thanks to Tim for being our "scientific experiment") on this one since he was the first one on the block with the camera) as wanted it to meet our perfect design. A PMW-200 would certainly blow away the AC90 but from a financial point I can buy 3 of the 90s for the cost of 1 PMW-200.
I've shot weddings on all kinds of cameras and honestly 99% of brides don't know the difference nor do they care. We Do! Sure there are some brides and grooms that are very tech savy and want you to have the latest and greatest but most?!?! All they want is solid,stable, well composed, nicely exposed footage with good audio so that in the future they can re-live their wedding.
I'm a dinosaur. I'm still shooting on PD 170s. SD, 4:3 Tape for heavens sake but the quality of the image is still great! Do brides know or care? Not a single bride has complained about the quality of the workmanship for over 13 years since I started using the PD 150s before the 170s. They don't even complain about the 4:3 or it being stretched to 16:9 on their TVs and honestly unless you're doing an ECU on a fairly large person, it's not going to make a hugh difference in the look. Listen, I am not out to make Award winners but to give the B&G the BEST possible product I can on that day for the money I'm being paid. I still do a whole lot of weddings so appearently the gear hasn't made a lot of difference to the clients.
I KNOW I need to make some upgrades and based on the footage I've seen of the AC90 along with the price I can't go wrong with a couple of them for the work I do. Are there other cams that I think would do better? Sure at 2 and 3 times the price and frankly I could but don't want to spend that kind of money anymore.
That's what I mean about overthinking it. Value gotten for the dollar spent. Do I get MOST of the things I want from this camera for the money I'm spending or does it fall short and IF it does fall short how short and IF it does fall short can I live without the certain things it doesn't have?
I like the form factor of the Sony NES-EA50 and frankly I don't care if the stock lens is slower than what I'm used to (keep in mind the PD series can almost see in the dark and produce a great image) I can up the gain, the ISO, add more light but I CAN NOT live without ND filters on the camera. Whether switchable or automatic like the AC 90 for me not having NDs is a non starter. PLUS I can buy 2 AC90s for the price of 1 NEX50. I have battry's for the Sony so I save money there but not enough to offset the $1500 difference between 1 NEX50 and 2 AC90s. I'm not dead set on any camera. If JVC or Canon cameout with something newer and better in the price range I want to be in in the next few weeks I'd be open to looking at them as well but for now, it appears that the AC90s will fill my needs in most of the areas I need and for where it falls short, I'll work around it. I've stopped overthinking about my choice, hell, I've stopped thinking about my choice period. They aren't perfect, no camera choice is. If they don't work out, oh well, I don't have a lot invested but something tells me they'll be just fine for the work I do.

Good post Don and I think your right on. I didn't leave the 2100's because of my clients.......I did it for me!!

Hi Guys

I have said it many times here but I'll say it again...we are way too technical for our own good BUT without chirping on about formats, resolution and low light we simply wouldn't have anything to talk about on this forum so we become tech-heads here and it IS fun!!

Yep brides couldn't really care if you are shooting in 1D, 2D or 3D or whether its HD, SD or anything else..it doesn't concern them at all. Our mission at weddings is to be in focus, make sure the bride looks pretty and the sunshine yellow dresses of the bridesmaids are not orange in the video ...that's all that makes them happy!!!

Like Don I'm shooting with not the latest cameras at all and I have to use lighting at receptions BUT I love my cameras and they give me all I want and more importantly they give my clients what they want. I too have never had a bride EVER complain about IQ or colour ...then again, miss the cake cutting and she will be onto you like a ton of bricks. What really annoyed me was a nice wedding I did back in August and shot with the HMC82's and a GoPro ...the bride spotted the wide angle footage and actually asked if she could have much more of "Camera 3" footage as it was so nice (the $300 GoPro Hero!!)

The other important thing is the fact that we run a business and taking Don's cameras ...they must have paid for themselves a million times over and that is good economics indeed!!! For me I make around only $50K a year on weddings and $50K on Realty so if I can do the job well with a pair of cameras that cost me under $5K why on earth should I buy a pair of cameras for $20K just cos they are "cool" ...To me
over spending on capital equipment is eating into MY profits!!

Chris

I also agree with Don. I keep trying to convince myself of the AC 90's (and so far am leaning toward buying a pair). I shot a performance with a PD 170 last week and loved working with it. Recipients are eagerly waiting the DVD's which will look real good.
We have to always be aware of new technology, and where the industry is going. This is good for our own confidence and dealing with the occasional geeky client with questions about specs.
Why I am still leaning toward the AC90 is that I work with a lot of photographers and given the controls of this camera, the photogs should give it a little more respect then something that looks "more automatic."
A good word or not so good word goes a long way among professionals.

given the controls of this camera, the photogs should give it a little more respect then something that looks "more automatic."

Currently I film with handicams, these small ones that fit in the palm of your hand and 550d's which are also quite small compared to a 5dII, When I started to use these camera I did worry about how my clients and there guests would think of me but when I saw what I can do with these cameras as a soloshooter I don't care anymore what they think. The footage just looks much better now then when I used my xh-a1.

With photogs however I never did care what they think of my equipment and respect doesn't come from a camera but from a person using it, they might not take you seriously but that is one of my least worries, if they would act as if I was not there I"d tell them to take me into consideration, you'd be surprised how much effect that kind of personal approach has.

Noa, you are absolutely right when it comes to not being intimidated by what others think of our tools or methods.
I promote ad nauseum about having your own agenda and sticking to it, no matter what anyone says or thinks.
I guess losing a 20K gig due to my camera appearance sticks in a distant memory.
But lets face it, anything in this class will have it's place and limits.
I think this camera, the AC90 is going to become one of the best in class in years to come. Just a hunch but we'll see.

Hi

Sorry if this question is out of the discussion in this thread, but I would like to ask Chris (Harding) what was so bad about the 130 so you decided to sell it? I've looked through yor old posts on this forum but did not find anything indicating that you didn't like the 130.

I will probably buy a new camcorder soon and the Panasonic AC160 is one of the camcorders I find very interresting so your oppinion on the 130 would be very welcome.

Please start a new post if you find this thread wrong for this discussion.


Regards,

/Bo

Hi Bo

I mainly shoot weddings and Realty and always shoot solo so I do need to have a camera (I'm shooting on two) that I can leave to look after itself while I'm using the second one. Here were my issues (note that most are NOT camera faults...just unsuitability for me issues)

The 130 in autoiris only controls the aperture not the shutter speed so at a wedding if a cloud passes over the sun the camera will scream for a manual ND filter to be changed...if I'm not right there my shot is under-exposed ..if I change the ND the footage now has a "flash" as the filter changes. The entire exposure system makes seamless shooting (even in manual) somewhat difficult. Not ideal for weddings at all or any operation where you are filming a continuous sequence and the lighting could change!

The Autofocus is very poor indeed and locks up at times and also drifts very badly ...I had to use manual all the time which is tough if you have the camera on a stedicam!!

In ALC, the audio signal gets clipped rather than reduced so your waveform gets a haircut rather than a lower level.

The image is sharp but IMO the lens just has no WOW factor at all!! The image is flat and dull without any sparkle...the HMC series still used Leica lenses which knocked you out !!! The 130 needs a awful lot of scene file tweaking to get a decent looking image but for me still no wow factor at all!!

Remember these are simply MY experiences and your applications might be totally different..it's still a good camera for stuff like theatre and dance recitals where you have consistent lighting.

Chris

Chris, I'm getting the feeling you're going to stick with your 82's? Am I wrong?

Greetings Don

Yes as main cameras the HMC82's definately are keepers!! However I was thinking about getting just one AC-90 when they eventually are released on this side of the world to use on the Stedicam and as a third camera. The 90 also might be useful for doing my Realty shoots as it's lighter and each house is around an hour shoot so a lighter camera would win there even if it's not shoulder mount!!

The Sony sadly has been moved to the bottom of the list as I think that without a couple of fast lenses for wedding receptions I would be back in square one and with lenses the cost is over budget.

You can put me down for one AC-90 at the moment to join the current family At the price it's going to be hard to beat I think??

Chris

Hi Bo

I also forgot about the quite poor auto white balance on the 130!! I found it tended to favour white walls in a Church as more yellow ..(the GoPro on the same Church balcony got it right but the 130 favoured yellow)

I also found that even outdoors green grass was not at all accurate compared to the HMC cameras ..Most scenes with lush green lawn tended to be a sort of "lime green" and didn't look right and had to be corrected ... that was an outdoor wedding and beautiful light too. If you are going to use a 130/160 then I think manual WB is mandatory!!! On my HMC's I don't think I have ever had to colour correct and I shoot mostly with AWT on so it's pretty accurate!!!

Chris

Last test with FX1000.

FX vs AC90 Low Light Test - YouTube (http://youtu.be/AGP4RzGbIik)


The AC90 holds up great until the lights are completely out and then it's only minor difference. You can't see the bottom of the balls well and the green ball looks blacker than the FX footage.

I believe the 90 will need less on camera light than the FX. It just seems like it doesn't take much light for the 90 to look good. That's what I'm hoping anyway. Now during the ceremony when you can't supply your own lught.....I'm unsure about that.

Hi Tim

That's a very respectable image at 22db ...I think I would definately go manual at the reception and lock the gain at 18db which will be really squeaky clean and then squirt just enough light on subjects to brighten them up. All my on-camera lights have dimmers on them so what I do is blast the light so at 90% zebra white shirts are totally blown out then back off the light until all the zebras are gone and that exposes very nicely...otherwise set zebras at 70% and back off until zebras are gone from faces and you should be almost perfect.

Don't be concerned about Churches...I have shot ceremonies with my HMC's which are the same sensitivity and only one Church tipped the 18db mark (it was all dark timber interior) and the back panel behind the couple did have a bit of noise.... If there is a rehearsal, go to it too!! I have done a Church where I was able to open side doors and that spilled a neat amount of light onto the couple and saved my bacon.

Even simple things like making sure the Church lights are, in fact, on and windows have any blinds or drapes clear.

The 90 is really amazing in low light at 22db you seriously cannot see any video noise!!!

Chris

Thanks Chris for the reception tips.The 90 only has 80% and 100% zebra settings. So I guess go with 80??

I always try to go to the rehearsal, that's saved my butt several times. This is a new church. This will be the first wedding in it I believe. I do know it doesn't have any windows. I just hope the bride does not want a candle light ceremony, being so close to christmas.

This will most certainly be a learning experience for me with the panny, always used Sony. I'm selling one of the FX1000's Monday and if the AC90 works out, I may replace the other FX with a 90. I would like for that second camera to have a longer reach than the 90 though. The FX's are 20x which is nice in those long churches.

Hi Tim

My attendance at rehearsals is purely a survey to see if I can spot any problem issues and meet the priest as well. Don't be afraid to ask him/her nicely if you can turn on as many overhead lights as possible at the ceremony..it DOES help a lot!!!

I gave up doing long shots at Churches and instead I have a GoPro on the back balcony or on a lightstand and hoisted at least 10' in the air ....My main cameras I now keep up front!! No further back than the 2nd row..otherwise you are filming more guests than bride...I stay on the right hand side of the aisle so I favour the bride's face and that way I never need more than 3 or 4X zoom to get tight shots of the couple during the vows.

I you can, take the 90, slip into the Church and see what the iris wants in manual ...with the 90 anything better than 24db will work great ..on my cams I like to be around the 10db mark and no more and there are very few Churches that are dimmer than that so I can't see you having any problems.

It will be nice to see the 90 in action doing a real live wedding shoot ....any comments on the audio control would be useful for potential 90 owners too!!! At Church ceremonies I normally put a mic on the groom and one on the reading lectern and that's enough.

Chris

Around here the pastor/priest don't control the lights, the BRIDE does or the brides mother.

I always try to set up like you say 2 or so rows back on the right side. My wife runs the other camera usually in the balcony or in the back. That's why I need the longer reach. The third cam (GH2) is the wide shot in the back also.

I will find out Friday night what the lighting will be. I plan on getting there early to allow time with the AC90!!

One thing I noticed about the ALC on the 90 that is different than the FX is, you can still adjust the level when using ALC. On the Sony, if ALC was on you had no control nor did you need to have control, it did a great job with audio. I will have to keep an I on that at the reception with the band. I know they are loud because we have filmed them several times.

Tim

Hi Tim

ALC on the 90 seems to have reverted to the older GS series cameras audio style that was called "manual + AGC" With cams like the GS400 and GS500 you set the audio manually BUT if the audio level exceeds 8db it clamps the output.

Doesn't the 90 have an "auto" position on the audio panel...the auto usually takes over totally and sets the audio level according to what it hears...that's what I use when the band/DJ starts up and it works well.

I'm assuming, like the 130/160 you set ALC on or off in the menu???? With the HMC's auto IS ALC and manual is full manual. If the 90 does have auto then I'm not sure if you can actually set it to auto and also turn ALC on but I have a feeling that ALC on each channel is reserved for manual operation only so for live bands, if you have an auto/manual switch there I would tend to just flick it to auto for live music

Chris

Hi Chris

Thank's for the info. I ill definately take these experiences into consideration while I keep on looking for the ultimate camcorder! :-)


Regards,

/Bo

Hi Bo

They are all a compromise sadly! What's good on one isn't good on another..I always try to find the best cameras for my shoot style and workflow and at prest the HMC82's work best for me (also half the price of the AC-130) The AC-90 is a pretty good compromise I think..for me it would need a shoulder mount rig so I would need to do some comprehensive aluminium construction and also find a decent magnifying loupe for the LCD....What I always find sad is that manuafacturers never provide any sort of mounting facilities for things like audio receivers and such so even my HMC's have a rail under them so I can have brackets for my receivers

Good luck and tell us what you decide on?

Chris

This might help makes someones decision process easier. B&H has the AC90 which has an MSRP of $1999.00 (USD) selling for $1849.99 (USD). That's a savings of $150.00 or enough to buy an extra Panasonic battery or some SDHC cards or an off brand battery and some cards or enough to take the better half to a nice dinner or enough to take the netter half to a decent dinner and go to the gaming establishment and make a donation...Your choice.
I'm just sayin'

0|0
\--/

Here the camera should be available within a week but according to a shop owner most camera's where pre-ordered and probably 2 available to buy if ordered this week. Mm, very tempted to get one, should I ? :)

Dang! Anyone know if B&H has the 30 day price guarantee? Looked on there website under pricing and didn't see anything.

Tim

Here the camera should be available within a week but according to a shop owner most camera's where pre-ordered and probably 2 available to buy if ordered this week. Mm, very tempted to get one, should I ? :)

Let you know Sunday Noa.

Tim

This might help makes someones decision process easier. B&H has the AC90 which has an MSRP of $1999.00 (USD) selling for $1849.99 (USD). That's a savings of $150.00 or enough to buy an extra Panasonic battery or some SDHC cards or an off brand battery and some cards or enough to take the better half to a nice dinner or enough to take the netter half to a decent dinner and go to the gaming establishment and make a donation...Your choice.
I'm just sayin'

0|0
\--/

Thanks Don!! Just called B&H and got $150 credit. That will more than pay for the extra battery and 16gig cards I bought a few days ago.

Tim

Hi Noa

Down here Global Media Pro still have the AC-90 as a "preliminary product" You cannot order it yet you can only request a notification as to when it will be in stock. Sounds like you are getting them earlier than us!

I think it will be a useful camera at weddings ..If I'm using my 2nd shooter it also means I can shoot cutaways while she is doing reverse angle shots or maybe just locked down behind the altar so I have a reverse angle shot of the vows all the time. I think it might also be great on the Stedicam and save my poor back! It's at least 1kg lighter than the HMC82 so it means a lighter sled weight...I noticed on the stedicam even the small weight difference between the 82 and AC-130 made flying the rig a lot easier so this should be a breeze.

Chris

Hi Guys

For any "downunder" people, I see that Global Media Pro this morning have listed the AC-90 as "in stock" at AUS $2120 ...what is a little worrying is that my beloved HMC82's are no longer on the price list!!

I'd love Panasonic bring out an AC-100 (the AC-90 in the shoulder mount housing) They did it with the HMC40 and brought out the 80 as an events camera...Here's hoping they do the same with the 90??

Chris

Chris & Noa,

After getting my feet wet with the AC90, I am overall pleased with the picture I got out of it.

First, I want to say I am by no means a professional. I started filming weddings about 6 years ago for a friend because they knew I fooled around with handy cams and electronic stuff and it just kinda took off from there. I am self taught, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

The lighting was good for the ceremony. The reception lights were up for the formal dances and then turned way down, almost off. I had the gain at 24db and adjusted the on cam lamp as necessary. Also bounced light off the ceiling, from a light on a stand that was next to the FX1000 on a tripod.

Overall I was pleased with the PQ. Some of the reception footage is a little washed out when there wasn’t enough light. Anything over 8 or10 feet from the camera looks colorless but is without much grain.

Auto focus seemed to work fantastic.

I like the size, feel and weight.

Had trouble with white balance. Coming from Sony’s, the Panny is a little different. I used Auto WB most of the time and would lock it when it looked right. The lock is not saved like manual WB, so it is lost when the camera is turned off. The manual WB always seemed to look a little cool, got to work on that.

I’m not real sure how the ALC works. With ALC on you still have to control the audio up or down for proper levels. The Sony kept the audio at perfect levels at all times, never had to worry with it.

Rocker Zoom is nice and smooth. Has more travel than Sony FX which makes it easier to get nice slow zooms.

Battery life was good. Bought an extra battery and never had to use it. Probably shot about 45gb of footage with it.

The scene file I had set up was ok some of the time and not so good at other times. Gamma was wrong, made skin tone to dark. I’m sure it can be made better with trial and error or from someone with more experience than me with scene file settings. After looking at some of the footage, I wish I had just shot flat but with the fast pace of the day I just didn’t get into swapping them around and just used the one that I thought looked the best from all my testing at home.

Scene File settings were:
Detail Level 0
V Detail 0
Detail Corning-3
Chroma 0
Chrome Phase 0
Master Ped 0
Auto Iris -7
DRS off
Gamma low
Knee auto
Matrix norm1
Skin Tone off

1080/60p

Here’s the link to some sample clips. All shots are hand held except a couple shots on the Merlin and on tripod at the ceremony. All audio is from onboard mic. I included some clips from the GH2 and FX1000 for comparison. The FX was set for normal Gamma. I always adjust contrast and gamma in post.

Private Video on Vimeo

Password: panny

Hi Tim

AWESOME!! That really shows what the camera can and cannot do...it handles black at receptions very well too!! Is there any reason why you set the scene file autoiris to -7? If you use auto then surely it will underexpose the whole time IF of course you used autoiris? In manual exposure on my HMC's I use a dead flat scene file..everything set to default and it's perfect for me!!

The audio is still a little worrying...does the AC-90 have an auto and manual switch? On my HMC's I run on manual until the reception then let auto take over when the loud music starts. The ALC on the 130 allows the camera to run in manual audio BUT limits the signal if it gets too loud ..with bands and suchlike I still prefer auto as the levels constantly change!!

OK, Just my view here but the images from the 90 STILL don't have any WOW factor..to me (and only me) they seem very flat and a tiny bit muddy indoors and there is no sparkle to them. The GH2 was getting closer to a nice image during the makeup but the 90 just seemed too ordinary...I still think the Leica glass does something to the end result.

It would be interesting to see how the camera performs with no tweaking of the scene files and equally interesting to have Noa's honest opinion !

Thanks again for the upload

Chris

Tim
Overall I'd say the PAnny AC90 handled the job quite well. yeah some areas of the reception did go a bit dark but that can be easily taken care of by either adding a bit more light from an on camera light or boosting the gain slightly. Keep in mind that most on camera lights are only good for about 8 to 10 feet anyway, and in most cases if there's anything of interest going on past that we're probably going to move in closer for framing purposes.

the FX1000 did seem to handle the lighting quite well also but IMO there were some areas that appeared to be a bit hot while the GH2 also did the job nicely it appeared to me to be a bit cool compared to the AC90.

when the lights were off and you were getting footage of the band to my eye, that footage was very nice. the colors appeared real as did the exposure.

Overall I'd say the AC90 did a great job but like Chris, I have to question the audio control. When I do weddings, at the reception I use a hypercaroid on the camera and a Sennheiser Drum Mic with a wireless transmitter back to the camera. the mic is placed within about 4 inches of the speaker be it for the DJ or a bands vocals and it picks up a clean track of sound for me. I still have to wonder if this system that I've been using for many years and practically guarantees me almost perfect audio would be in trouble. I really don't have time during a reception to fiddle with sound levels since my job is to concentrate on framing.
I guess my question is how does the audio block on the AC90 work? I might need to buy one, set up my audio system and blast my 600W surround sound like I was at a reception. My neighbors will love me ;-)

Anyway, thanks for all the work and footage you've posted. I'm thinking my decision is getting easier by the day.

Chris,

I wasn’t blow away either. The 90 will be an improvement over the FX’s I think. I have only delivered one Blu-Ray since moving to HD anyway.

In good light I was in auto iris most of the time, so the -7 would have come into effect. At the reception I was locked at 24db after the lights went out. Playing with the camera it just looked like it wanted to overexpose, which I hate to do. You think the indoor stuff was underexposed?

Do you think the 40 has a better image than the 90? Does it have that WOW to it?

Remember, this was my first time with a panny. You or someone else might could take the 90 and make it go WOW.

Don,

As far as I know the only setting for the audio is ALC on or off, I had it on but I'm not sure what it does. Like you, I blasted my Yamaha receiver before the wedding and set the levels there thinking the 90's ALC would boost the lower sound. Not being use to checking sound levels, I never adjusted them.

I very rarely use camera audio except for syncing and never at the reception.

Thx for sharing Tim, that's very helpfull. the images are somewhat comparable with my sony cx730's, You can see the fx1000 keeps more details in the blacks while the ac90 crushes the blacks more resulting in loss of detail, my cx730 does that too. I also find the panny image and color more pleasing to look at compared to your Sony.

I did get the impression that you underexposed with the panasonic, you can always correct that in post but where you using the zebra's to check your exposure?

If I look at the image I"d say there is nothing wrong with it and very good for such a small sensor camera, that's an image you can expect from a recent camera.

I have given it a lot of thought and even after finding a UK supplier that sells the ac90 even cheaper then in Belgium I will not be buying it and most probably will cough up the double price for a Sony nex ea50. The few videos that you can find back on vimeo show a filmic image which I like so much and I think it's the best camera this moment and at that pricepoint that bridges the gap between regular videocamera's and dslr's and which can provide that "wow" factor in a better way then the ac90 can do.

I even had been thinking about the BMC but if you want to make it really production ready you"ll need to pay about the double for accesoires and then it's also the workflow to consider if you do raw. The nex ea50 will fit in my existing workflow allowing to be used at either weddings but also corporate videos. I only think it's much too big, I currently carry 5 small camera's with me in one backpack when I do weddings, the nex ea50 would require about the same size of bag to be carried along :)

Hi Noa,

I think the blacks are crushed because of the scene file I had it on, I really wish I had changed it some!

I hate to say I had zebra turned on but didn't expose for it, just let the camera work on its own. I think I had to much confidence in its ability to get it right, which it did some of the time.

I guess I need to add that the 90 might have done a better job if I hadn't had the Auto Irish Level at -7.

Double posted

Tim, the low detail in the blacks has as much to do with your choice of Low Gamma. Try Cine-d.

Without trying to over think the profile settings, I think the only way to have more wow factor is to have more light or a more expensive camera. As is, it does a pretty good job of returning a decent low light image that's clean of noise.

I set up a low light experiment with 3 cams, the Canon 5DmkII, the Sony PMW350K and the Panasonic AC90. For wedding or reception, each has its problems.

The 5DmkII with 85mm f/1.2L glass can really wow when the lights are down, but there's so much cmos wobble and skew from camera shake as to be unusable if handheld. Dof is similarly razor thin at f/1.2 but it really pops at ISO 1600, low noise, rich saturation, natural gradations.

The PMW350k stays sharp at f/1.9 and free from wobble and skew, noise is acceptable at 12db gain, the next step up 18db turns night into day but with plenty of chroma noise. The handling is great on your shoulder, as long as you're not smacking the guests with it. The image at 12db has some sparkle, not as much as the 5DmkII but it also doesn't have the wobble and shake or thin Dof problems.

The AC90 in the low light of a reception hall is a compromise of easy good handling, stable optics but a relatively unremarkable image that gets the job done in a non offensive manner.

If I had to choose one camera for weddings to balance all the compromises, it might be the EX1 or its newer replacement the PMW200. I really believe you need stabilization. I really believe that to get the benefit of the full, aps-c or super 35 sensor cams, you need either stabilized lenses which sacrifice some of the inherent benefit of fast lenses, or you need merlin, steadicam, glidecam...what a hassle.

There is one other wedding cam that sounds promising, Sony EA50 that has an aps-c sensor, built in stabilization, shoulder rest and a reasonable price. I haven't seen a report on the image, some of the people were already saying it has the sensor from an NEX, and thus would be compromised. But nothing surprising about that. Weddings are hard to do well.

Thanks Tom, funny thing I had a scene file set up that looked the best to me for low light (with Cine-D I think) and I didn't even try it.....what was I thinking.

What's your take on running Auto Iris Level at low levels? Do you use Auto Iris/Gain?

Tim,

Generally, if I am going to use auto iris/gain, I expose -1.

The pros will always say, "I shoot everything in manual." With some of those pro cams that may have 13 stops of latitude, you can. You can pan all over the place and the envelope always has enough latitude to contain the whole scene. The result ends up looking super professional. With little chips, you don't have that luxury so to answer your question, I will if necessary shoot with auto iris/gain. And I doubt most people will notice or complain because the ac90 is quite graceful across lighting transitions.

I would also remark that it's easy to look at a clip somebody else posted and think, oh yeah my ____handicam does as well. I've got drawers full of retired handicams where I thought that as well, that yes under the right conditions one could reproduce a particular scene as well, forgetting it could completely ruin the image in a less favorable circumstance. Just pointing out, the ac90 while not perfect, is thoroughly professional in the sense that it records a high percentage of keepers in many varying conditions, that don't inherently favor it, like low light.

Weddings are tough. Unlike cinema, you don't get to plan all your shots. The ac90, even with not the ideal gamma or exposure chosen, you get something usable. That's what I meant by calling some shots unremarkable, they may not always sparkle, but they also don't call attention to themselves for being bad. It certainly can sparkle however, in good light, with 1000+ tv lines of resolution, moire free. So detailed, it makes me wonder, with most dslrs and cinema cams struggling to make 650-900, that if they used all the resolution that the hd format supports, who would be calling for 4k?

Thanks for your input Tom, I really do appreciate it.

I agree with many of your settings. Detail coring -3 is what I like best (as well) for daylight. For low light indoors I go the other way to +3, but either way is not a big difference in noise. But as you've found, coring helps to crispen an image without outlines, or cancel random noise if the gain is up or when bringing up drs to reveal more shadow detail.

You're aware this cam like like many avchd records in 16-255. Anything going to hdtv should have the levels adjusted to 16-235, which is a good time for a light grading if desired. Since this needs to be done anyway, I prefer to watch the histogram and make sure it's all captured and none clipped. It makes the grading easier.

But I think you also moved the black pedestal which I leave alone. Moving the luminance/highlights clipping point to 235 is a good idea but if you alter the pedestal how can you be sure the object that starts on your histogram at 16 is truly black? Since the pedestal moves the whole gamma curve including mids, I think it's better to set pedestal at default and adjust something later in post. I realize you are trying to achieve a certain look, but you also mention a skin tone, which could be a slight consequence.

Hi Tim

I don't have the manual or the camera but looking at the photos I certainly don't see any auto/manual audio switch at all!! That essentially means that you can have ALC which is not level control but simply a clipping control (you still set the level manually) At weddings I just don't have time to fiddle with audio levels so if the camera has no auto/manual audio switch like all Panasonics then I would be VERY surprised indeed and that would be a huge design flaw.

No, your footage didn't look under or over-exposed at all....maybe a tad under as faces were never very bright or blown out at all. The way I see it if you turn the scene file autoiris down to -7 it's essentially the same thing as physically turning the iris ring in auto ....You are simply closing the iris just a fraction away from the setting that the camera decides. On my AC-130's I was "convinced" to set the autoiris to "+2" and my entire wedding was washed out so it went back to zero and stayed there. I can see the value of that setting maybe if you are filming in snow or in a desert.

Can you check in your manual about auto/manual for audio please...if the cam doesn't have an auto audio then for me it's useless for weddings.

I'll take another look at the footage carefully and see if I missed anything or if I can hopefully see some wow??

Thanks again for the upload

Chris

Here ya go Chris, from the manual:


- 49 -
Adjusting the audio input level
∫ Adjusting the input level of the built-in microphone (5.1 ch)
≥ Set the [MIC SETUP] to anything other than [2ch]. (l 45)
1 Select the menu.
2 (When [SET]/[SETr ] is selected)
Touch / to adjust the microphone input
level.
≥ Touch to activate/disactivate ALC. When ALC is
activated, the icon is surrounded by yellow and the
amount of sound distortion can be reduced. When ALC is
disactivated, natural recording can be performed.
≥ Adjust the microphone input level so that the last
2 bars of the gain value are not red. (Otherwise, the sound
is distorted.) Select a lower setting for microphone input
level.
3 Touch [ENTER] to set the microphone input
level and then touch [EXIT].
≥ is displayed on the recording screen when the ALC
is turned on.
≥ When [MIC SETUP] is [ZOOM MIC], the volume will be different depending on the zoom rate.
≥ You cannot record with the audio completely muted.
: [RECORD SETUP] # [5.1ch MIC LEVEL] # desired setting
[AUTO]: ALC is activated, and the recording level is adjusted automatically.
[SET]/[SETr ]: The desired recording level can be set.
MENU
A Center
B Front left
C Back left
D Front right
E Back right
F Microphone input level


Adjusting the input level of the built-in microphone (5.1 ch) using the operation
icons
≥ Set the [MIC SETUP] to anything other than [2ch]. (l 45)
≥ Set [5.1ch MIC LEVEL] to [SET]/[SETr ]. (l 49)
1 Display the operation icons and touch . (l 64)
2 Touch / to adjust settings.
3 Touch to complete the setting.
∫ Adjusting the input level of the built-in microphone (2 ch), external
microphone or audio device
≥ Set [MIC SETUP] to [2ch]. (l 45)
Adjust the input level operating the Audio control knobs (CH1, CH2)

Ok Chris you got me to checking in on the audio and it looks like you got to set the audio to 5.1 for it to have auto levels. Who needs 5.1 internal mics??

I'll figure out as soon as I can if will control the levels of an external mic.

From the manual:

- 45 -
This unit can record audio in 5.1 ch or 2 ch. (The voice recording method is Dolby® Digital ( ))
When recording in 2 ch, it is possible to switch between built-in microphone, external microphone,
or connected audio equipment for each channel.
Microphone setup
Recording setting of the built-in microphone can be adjusted.
Select the menu.
≥ If you wish to record higher quality sound and maintain realism even when zooming in, for
instance recording a music recital, we recommend setting [MIC SETUP] to [SURROUND].
≥ When the [BASS SETTING] is set to anything other than [0dB], it becomes impossible to select
[FOCUS MIC]. (l 94)
≥ When the [REC FORMAT] is set to [SA 480/60i], [2ch] is used.
≥ Display of the audio level meter will change depending on the settings. (l 106)
Recording
Audio Input
: [RECORD SETUP] # [MIC SETUP] # desired setting
[SURROUND]: Sound is recorded with 5.1 ch surround microphone.
[ZOOM MIC]: Sound is recorded with 5.1 ch surround microphone changing the
directionality in conjunction with the zoom operation. Sounds near
the front of the unit are recorded more clearly if you zoom in (closeup)
and surrounding sounds are recorded more realistically if you
zoom out (wide angle).
[FOCUS MIC]: The forward sound is recorded more clearly by enhancing the
directionality toward the center for the 5.1 ch surround microphone.
[2ch]: Sound from two directions is recorded in 2 ch by forward-facing
stereo microphones.
MENU

I'm with Chris on audio. For ceremony's I run 2 wireless back to my main camera and honestly for the last 8 or 9 years I've been running them on AGC (I'm still old school with PD170's) but I control the levels if needed on the receiver but obviously a ceremony is slow moving and I have never had one clip my audio.

Receptions are another matter. I run 2 mics. My trsuty AKG Blueline Hypercaroid to channel 1 and a Sennheiser drum mic with a plugin transmitter back to my camera on channel 2. Again I run AGC and I have never ever had a clipping problem. Between the 10db attenuation on the hyper and the level control on the receiver it works out great BUT to take a camera without some sort of automatic gain control could be the big non starter for me.

I'd hate to buy one, try it and then have to return it if the audio doesn't work the way I need it to. It seems though that that might be the only way for me to know for 110% sure.

Chris,

While plowing around in the menu for audio settings, I found where you can set the Zebra. So I need to correct something I told you earlier. I told you the 90 only had a choice between 90% and 100%, that is wrong. There are two Zebra settings that can be set from 50% to 100% and by pressing the Zebra button that toggles between Zebra1,Zebra 2 and off.

Tim beat me to it but I'll post anyway:

The audio works as follows:

The external switches;
input1,2, line/mic; 48v on/off
Ch1, Level, INT(L)/Input1,2
Ch2, Level, INT(R)/Input2

The audio menu;
Mic setup; Surround/ZoomMic/FocusMic/2ch
For Mic setup Surround/ZoomMic/FocusMic, choose Mic Level among the following:
AUTO
SET
SET+ALC

For Mic setup 2ch, choose MIC ALC On/Off. Choose EXT. MIC GAIN1,2 -50db/-60db
********************************
The short answer is AUTO is only available for the internal built-in mic. If you connect an external mic(s), you can set the level and input impedance, but your only choice after that is ALC on/off.

Tom correct me if I'm wrong but I think Auto only applies to 5.1 mic setup and not 2ch for the internal mic.

Thanks Tim (and Tom too)

Yep it looks like there is NO auto for external mics!! That's totally crazy...Barry Green did say that you can have ALC (more a clipping control) but you still have to adjust audio manually.

Sadly that writes off the AC-90 for weddings for me!! I have enough to do without having to worry about audio levels at receptions...The HMC's have a manual/auto switch which is a godsend when things get hairy!! I couldn't live without it!!

Hmmm how does that makes you feel Don??? I'm keeping my HMC80's for now as they do everything I need them to do and the Leica optics do make a difference to footage....Maybe we need to look at the Sony EA-50 again????

I'm sure Panasonic is getting a third party to design/manufacture the AC series (China??) The build quality is completely different from the HMC series and why would they leave stuff out??

Thanks again for all your work Tim

Chris

Tom correct me if I'm wrong but I think Auto only applies to 5.1 mic setup and not 2ch for the internal mic.

You are not wrong, I was forgetting 2ch recording could use the internal mic, not just the xlr's.

The ac90 reminds me a lot of the dvx100b I used to have, it also had a lot of image presets that you could or had to tweak to get the most of it. Allthough I do prefer a camera that get's it right from the start and which leaves enough room to color correct in post I must say the ac90 is a remarkable camera at it's pricepoint.
You could discuss about features they left out but considering what it costs I think you get a whole lot more then what other cameramanufacturers are offering at this moment.

I'm keeping my HMC80's for now as they do everything I need them to do and the Leica optics do make a difference to footage....Maybe we need to look at the Sony EA-50 again????

I'm sure Panasonic is getting a third party to design/manufacture the AC series (China??) The build quality is completely different from the HMC series and why would they leave stuff out??

Thanks again for all your work Tim

Chris

Hi Chris,
I totally understand about the omission of the audio auto level, but I don't have anything but praise for the lens despite not carrying the Leica brand. It's got a 5 axis stabilizer, 8 blade iris, nano coated glass, auto focuses perfectly, has extremely good slow speed creeping zoom, corner to corner sharpness and the camera label says made in Japan.