As the title says, this thread is for discussion and suggestions of the UWOL rules, suggestions of improvement to our procedures, and so on.
Let's keep the talk here and have everything in one place.

Over the years there has been a slow reduction in the number of players, resulting in a "hard core" of regulars, and only a few newcomers.

Any ideas of how to attract more people to join the UWOL challenges, are more than welcome.

Examples:
Sign up procedures - stay open or close, longer sign up periods...?
Number of challenges. We started with 6, currently we have 4 each year.
"Long form challenges" once in a while, or only one month from theme release to deadline.

Reaching out to schools and universitys that educate in media, suggesting the students participate would probably encourage more people. Being more active on Facebook and other social media is important! Not everybody uses forums in the same way as 10 years ago.

I vote for open signup until deadline.

If the signup closes in the future it is a must to have a email notification newsletter that reminds people to signup.

Hi Trond. You have been here from the start and I think the original idea was to challenge people to go beyond their comfort zone. To be given a theme and going out and making the most of it with what you could come up with. To have to get the footage for the current Challenge was to get people out and shooting and that is one rule I've always followed
.
I think the closing of the sign up before the theme is announced is what makes this interesting. If you know what it is before you make a commitment to do a video takes that away. If you don't like the theme you won't even bother trying but if you have already signed up maybe you will try to enter a video.
I like having the sign up closed before the theme is announced.

I do agree that maybe there could be a sign up list set up that people can have their email address entered in if they want to be notified of a new contest. Something simple that can be fired off to everyone on the list.

As for getting more people into the Challenge I'm not sure how to go about that. It can take a fair amount of time to come up with an entry so maybe that stops some. As for the time allowed to make an entry I don't know if allowing more time will help most people. It seems the more time you give the more time you think you have and before you know it the deadline is here.

Gordon

Good comments and thoughts you have. Thank you.

No matter what we end up with, some things are very important, and as Gordon mentions, it is about pushing yourself to improve your skills as a film maker, and to get out to enjoy the wilderness.

There are both advantages and disadvantages with the sign-up being closed before theme release.
I believe having it closed brings a little more commitment to participating.
Maybe just one week sign-up is too short? Maybe we should try 2-3 weeks?
But at the same time, leaving sign-up open, might attract players who feel the need to know the theme first.
The idea of an email notification is worth thinking about.

I feel responsible for having started this discussion, but I don't have particularly strong feelings to contribute!

Maybe the 4 deadlines should be fixed dates (with the seasons) so that we can just set our calendars in advance and check the forum? That way nobody needs to manage the emails and we don't have to worry about spam filters and maintaining a listserv.

I think I understand what Gordon is saying about the deadline closing before the theme is announced helping to gauge people's seriousness before the event begins. But I question the necessity. Does it matter if 30 people sign up but only 10 complete the challenge? It's not as though our agreement to participate is contractual anyway. Or, conversely, would it be bad if we ended up with some sub-par, spur-of-the-moment submissions that someone just throws together in the final days of the contest? Is there some kind of quality-control that we are trying to uphold as a group?

Finn, discussios and improvements are always a good thing, and it doesn't matter who start it. Do not feel any "guilt!".

As of today, the 4 annual challenges are set (March, June, September and December), with sign up the last week (minimum 7 days) prior to theme release, which is normally the 1st day of the month.
Deadline is normally the last day of the month, but I try to adapt it to give you as many weekends as possible, since that seems to be when most have time to work on their films.
This can of course be changed if/when we think the UWOL challenge will improve with new rules.

There is NO quality control what so ever, and there will be no minimum quality requirement!
Anyone from professionals to amateurs who got their first camera the same day, are most welcome.
The feedback process after each deadline is just as important as providing an entry for the contest. Everyone can learn a lot from both giving and receiving feedback. This is very much part of the UWOL spirit - the interaction between the players.
This will not change as long as I'm running the show.

Finn the original idea of the Challenge was that, to challenge a person to get out there. Signing up before you knew what it was you were getting yourself into was the more interesting part. Does it really matter. Most likely not. As you say you are not forced into producing a video and I suspect in some cases that is why some don't enter a video, as the theme doesn't interest them.
In the early days we had a fairly good turn out but maybe the the problem is people look at this as a competition more than a challenge. There are a number of people who have aways produced some very top notch videos and that may have other people thinking it is not worth participating. The Challenge was to let anybody participate no matter the equipment used or their talent. Just look at me!
As for the discusssion it never hurts. There is a lot of smart people here so I sure some good ideas will be brought up.
Also as Trond always points out Rule #11.

Gordon

Exactly! It is a reason behind the name choice of "UWOL Challenge" and not "competition".
Do not forget that.
Yes, the glory of producing the winning film is great, but it still is not the most important part of UWOL.

Personally, I could care less if I win or not. For me UWOL is about having FUN while I improve my skills as an film maker, and the interaction with all of you both during the challenge and before/after, is very important.

To me, not knowing the theme before signing up, has added to that challenge. No matter what I have thought about the theme, I have always tried to do my best anyway. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes not. That has been part of the game.

I have been with UWOL since challenge nr2, and it has been a pleasure to see how each and every player have improved their skills over the years.
Some players are not with us anymore for various reasons, and some new ones have joined in during the years. I hope everyone has fun participating.
Over the years, UWOL has become not only a film challenge, but also great friendships have developed.
The value of this can not be underestimated.

To everyone who have joined in, or think about doing so:
You are most welcome! Never be afraid to speak your mind! Every voice is equally important.
This will not change!

I must admit, when I first entered, to have been a little apprehensive - more of my own abilities that anything else.
I was attracted to the idea of the ¨challenge,¨,as Gordon says - it's to stretch yourself a bit, and move out of your comfort zone.

I love the idea of the limited sign up time, and subsequent revelation of the theme, and I think this adds to the original idea - half of the fun is thinking up something as an idea, and the other half in the execution.

I have very much enjoyed the feedback threads, and although I have never met another member of the group, we have had contact outside of DVInfo, and it does add to being part of a community.

Regarding the rules - I don't see a major issue with some flexibility in the sign up - as has been said, it has been done before, but we should also think about the added admin of last minute entries for Trond.

Four or six challenges per year will always fit with some people and not with others, as we all have outside commitments, and sometimes not the time to compete, even if we sign up. - That is important, because you are under no obligation to submit a finished film, even though you signed up, although the alternative ¨wall of shame¨is no place to be!

Summing up - Im quite happy with the current setup - the dates are set, and the time to produce is fine, but I am open to new ideas, and of course more competitors - one of the aims with the UWOL Round the World collection was to showcase the group to a wider audience, and that can still be done.

With reference to the the dwindling numbers I have long thought that critique has sometime been too pernickety and therefore put put people off from submitting further entries. I strongly believe it is an important part of the challenge but at times has been given where it is obvious that clips, cut aways and continuity etc were not able to have obtained/ achieved during the time frame of the challenge and often pointed out by the entrant on submission. We are after all dealing with nature that doesn't always perform to cue and therefore some obvious adaptations are made in order to submit an entry. Constructive comments are very important so maybe some broad guidelines on the could be drawn up?

Mick, I'll look into your suggestions of possible guidelines for feedback comments.
Not sure if it is needed, but I see your points about to detailed feedback.
At the same time, it is worth noting that feedback is meant to be constructive with the purpose to let you know how you could improve the quality of your films. And that should not change.
There will always be differences in the feedback based on the players' background and skills. Some focus on tiny details and some on the broader picture.

It's nice to see this topic opened up for discussion. I'd hate to see UWOL disappear because I still think it is both relevant and beneficial to nature and wildlife filmmakers of all levels.

I got in on UWOL on the ground floor. Meryem, Mat and I had all kinds of discussions about what it should be and how it should go etc. I wonder if I still have all those discussions.

There were a lot of good things planned for UWOL but at that time Chris was pretty busy with things so we really were just kind of left to our own devices and never really had a chance to grow UWOL like we wanted to.

Mat spent a LOT of time working on a stand alone website that some of you may remember where the films used to be archived. We did that all on our own. We paid for the domain name, the hosting and Mat worked his arse off making it a great site.

In the early days we were hampered by codec compatibility so that limited what we could upload.

Meryem wanted a format that was universal between Mac and PC and coupled with size limitations this made the films less than stellar from a viewers standpoint. I don't believe YouTube was available in HD and I wouldn't upload my stuff to YouTube anyway back in those days.

Can't remember if Vimeo was even around then. But I know we worked with what we had at the time and tried to make sure the field was level.

The big downfall I believe was when we had a judge break the judging criteria and we ended up with co-winners. It certainly created a big rift and we lost filmmakers for sure because of it.

But I think people lost the reason for the purpose of UWOL and that was to challenge YOURSELF and get feedback from filmmakers that had a passion for the same subjects you did.

I never went into a challenge trying to beat anyone but my last entry. My competition was myself and trust me, I kicked my arse many a time because I felt I fell short. If you're in it to win it you don't get what UWOL was originally all about.

Critiques can be hard especially on someone just getting started. But I LOVED Mat's critiques because he pulled no punches. He expected the same from me. We never took any of the comments personally.
I wanted him to be brutally honest and when he said this didn't work or he didn't like that I knew it wasn't to be mean but to help me become a better filmmaker.

When Mat was working on his award winning film about stag beetles, he asked Meryem and I to go over each new revision and shred it and we did. We had some great discussions with Mat arguing for something he did and us arguing that we didn't think it worked. I guess I shouldn't say arguing but when you have passion on your side, you discuss your point very passionately.

Sometimes Mat made a change that we suggested, other times he didn't. It was up to him to make the film he wanted but he knew along the way what we thought and why.

The why was a big thing. We never said, we hate this. We said this doesn't work and this is why. It was up to Mat to decide if changing it would stay true to his vision or not.
In the end he won a Panda award and now travels the globe working as a professional cinematographer. I'd like to think UWOL helped him get there.

Same thing with Per. You knew if Per and Mat were entered you had to be on top of your game because one of them would usually walk away with the win.

Marj is another. Her films are hard to beat. But I never looked at it as I had to try to beat any of them. Their work pushed me to play on their level. Most of the time I fell short and that was ok because this is a challenge after all, not a competition. I'm a better filmmaker today not because I tried to win but because I tried to learn from Mat, Per, Marj and all the other filmmakers here.

You have Trond, Geir, Ruth, Gordan and a whole slew of other filmmakers that I learned from. UWOL helped change my way of thinking. The idea of many filmmakers shooting the same thing taught me how to see something in a different light. Ruth's talking animals and putting her daughter in front of the camera made for some great films. It caused me to pause and really think about how I wanted to approach the theme.

So where have I been for the past year or so?

I've certainly had a lot of life changes. Some good, some bad. The bad ones are pretty much behind me now so hopefully there's still time for me to complete this current challenge.

For the past year I've only taken my camera out to work on a feature film that I was hired to shoot about the abolitionist movement in America. We wrap finally on July 27 after more than a year of shooting on my free weekends.

Just a couple weeks ago was the first time I've shot nature in several months. I'm hoping now that life has hopefully stopped throwing me curve balls, I can get back into it. I'd love to finish this challenge.

I think there are two tracts, maybe three types of filmmakers here.

The ones that just do it for the fun of it. The ones that are just getting into it and think its a fun way to learn. The ones that want to see how far they can go and really want to hone their skills.

So you have two groups basically. One that wants some good feedback on what we liked etc. The other wants more critical feedback with no punches pulled.

For someone new to filmmaking even minor criticism can be taken the wrong way and their joy in doing these challenges be ruined.

Reading a critique can be misinterpreted. You don't see the facial expressions or the tone of the voice. Its easy for a helpful suggestion to be taken as a slam against your film.

Me? I'd rather know what you didn't like and why so that I can see your point and try to make better films in the future.

So maybe we need two levels of feedback. You can either ask for general feedback or ask for a more detailed nitpick critique.

I don't have any problem doing either for someone. I can tell you all the things I liked about your film and what worked for me and leave it at that. Or I can nitpick and say this shot is a bit too hot or this edit point is to jarring.

As for getting new people involved, maybe we need Chris to put up a prize every now and then. Look when the DVC was giving the winner a Black Magic camera as a prize. You had all kinds of people fired up about that.

The other thing is maybe Chris can pony up a few dollars to pay for some targeted Facebook ads. I mean a lot of people who may enter don't even know we exist. We're a small niche as it is. I mean I see nature photographers often here in Iowa but have yet find anyone else filming nature here.

You can't play if you don't know the game exists.

It would be nice if we could get like Mat and Per to shoot some interviews for UWOL about what they've gone on to do. Heck, Mat's out filming sharks right now and I remember when he was in Sumatra filming police officers that ride elephants instead of cars. I'd love to hear how UWOL prepared him for what he's doing now and some advice for people that want to do the same thing.

Maybe some of our more advanced filmmakers can shoot tutorials on ways they got some of their shots or how they went about tackling a theme that they won.

If Chris or someone pony up $100 for a gift certificate for camera gear maybe you would get the full $100 if you signed up before the theme was announced but only $50 if you signed up after the theme was announced. That way the people who took the challenge without knowing what they had to work with benefit from taking the chance.

I tell you what. I'll even put my money where my mouth is. If you want to do a two tier entry into the next challenge, I'll PayPal you Trond a $100 US before you announce the theme to go to the winner of the next challenge however you see fit.
If I win, you donate the money to either C-A-L-F Animal Sanctuary in the UK or Last Hope Animal Rescue here in Iowa, both of which I support.

$100 US isn't a lot of money but would be interesting to see if we had more people sign up. Maybe Chris could kick in $100 too. That's only $400 a year if he supported all the challenges. Heck, my last hard drive cost more than that! :)

Anyway, sorry for the long rambling post. But I truly do believe the best of UWOL is still ahead of us. We just need to find the right formula!

Thank you for carrying the torch to keep the UWOL fire burning Trond! I know this flame can burn much, much brighter!

Not sure what all the *'s are about but that's what you get from copying from a PC to an iPad I guess. :)

Everyone, thanks a lot for your feedback. It is very much appreciated.

Kevin, you have some great words of wisdom from the source of UWOL, which should never be forgotten.
I'll talk to you soon.


Just for the record:
This thread will remain open and is meant not only for discussions now, but also in the future.

Great points, Kevin - and all the better from the perspective of your view of the beginnings of UWOL.

I must admit, coming from the world of the automotive industry, where constructive criticism is a fact of life (as is the other kind!), I found the level of comment here quite ¨tame¨ - granted, I am a relative newcomer to UWOL, but I find other views on my work, especially of the peer group we have here, to be excellent.

Look at the world outside - I rarely look at comments on YouTube because they are unbelievable - you'd think folks have better things to do - but here people understand where you are coming from, and what your are trying to achieve, and that makes a big difference.

I have had the good fortune to have studied with Den Lennie at F Stop Academy, and I can tell you - you never stop learning - as Kevin says, the inter web is not the best tool to chat - unless you are on Skype, and you can see the other person - comments left with the best intention, but viewed a day or so later, in a different time zone and maybe language can be hard to interpret!

Keep the discussion coming, folks!

Not sure what all the *'s are about but that's what you get from copying from a PC to an iPad I guess. :)

No worries -- fixed that for you!

There were a lot of good things planned for UWOL but at that time Chris was pretty busy with things so we really were just kind of left to our own devices and never really had a chance to grow UWOL like we wanted to.

Seems like I'm *always* pretty busy with things. Seems like there's never enough time, either. But I still have an old series of emails about UWOL ideas which can be re-visited. And I think there's plenty of untapped opportunity here.


The other thing is maybe Chris can pony up a few dollars to pay for some targeted Facebook ads. I mean a lot of people who may enter don't even know we exist. We're a small niche as it is. I mean I see nature photographers often here in Iowa but have yet find anyone else filming nature here.

Do targeted FB ads work? I'd sure like to get some feedback on that. DVi can push UWOL from its FB and Twitter accounts, plus the newsletter, no problem.

If Chris or someone pony up $100 for a gift certificate for camera gear maybe you would get the full $100 if you signed up before the theme was announced but only $50 if you signed up after the theme was announced. That way the people who took the challenge without knowing what they had to work with benefit from taking the chance.

Have done it before and will be happy to do it again!

$100 US isn't a lot of money but would be interesting to see if we had more people sign up. Maybe Chris could kick in $100 too. That's only $400 a year if he supported all the challenges. Heck, my last hard drive cost more than that! :)

You're on!

Thought it might be a good time to whip out this oldie once again... the original inspiration for the UWOL name. And, always curious to know if there are any other die-hard Midnight Oil fans like myself lurking about these parts...

Midnight Oil - Underwater - YouTube

While having $$ as an award for the winning film certainly can attract more people, (which is a good thing and what we want), I am not sure about have it for every challenge would be good.
We all need to remember the idea of what UWOL is, a challenge to push yourself first of all, and keep focus on that. To focus too much about a winner's award, is in my opinion a step in the wrong direction.

Trond,

That's true. Maybe once a year or something add some $'s to the pot as an incentive for new players to take part or something.

The charity film challenge drew me out of my funk and fog to do a film in the hopes I could win some money for Last Hope Animal Rescue which really needed the money.

So maybe we can make it a win win and the money goes to charity. Instead of the DVC/UWOL Charity where the pot is based on the filmmakers that donate, this could be a set amount.

I think the pot for the charity challenge I won was around $400 which I would much rather have go to a charity then to me. It felt good knowing that I could help out Last Hope by doing something I loved.

So not sure if a charity donation would be incentive for new players to come in but I still stand by my $100 donation to whatever is decided if we want to offer something to get people that are sitting on the fence to give UWOl a go.

Chris, Beds are Burning is one of my favorite tunes.
Midnight Oil - Beds Are Burning - YouTube

All:

Chris is willing to back UWOL however we can so we really need to take advantage of that and find some good ways to grow the challenge.
More traffic and entries means the more Chris will be willing to continue to help us grow the challenge.

The funny thing is that I had an idea for this challenge but discussing all this made me rethink it and I feel I have a better idea now to go out and shoot.

I think I'll work on an outline tomorrow at work and see if it al makes sense.

Anyway, lets get some ideas both in the box and outside the box on ways that UWOL can grow.

I agree that some fiercer comments would be helpful (for me at least). The negative (yet constructive) comments on the audio in my early submissions helped me to improve it immensely. You submit a video and have reviewed it so many times, that everything looks fine in your own eyes. A fresh pair of eyes see things differently. I have seen poorly made cuts in UWOL films, poor follow-focus, unnatural colors, etc, but have been afraid to say anything and be offensive. Perhaps the person who did the piece would have wanted to know. How about a place to comment anonymously, but still with sensitivity. Of course you can't be anonymous on DV Infonet, but perhaps someone could receive comments on everyone's films and repackage them, such as "Trond, here is what UWOLers said about your film".

I would also like to see the broadening of the rules pertaining to what video you can use for a challenge. I am a physician in the real world, and have limited time to go out and shoot. As a result, I only enter when a vacation coincides with a UWOL challenge period. That way I am able to get a variety of material, within certain limits. If I had to shoot only what I could access locally on weekends, my entries would become identical every time. I'm sure other UWOLers have the same problem. How often can you shoot your own neighborhood? Kevin had alluded to this, too, I think, when he said he was shooting too much water. Perhaps location boredom is one reason that the UWOL population has declined.

I see your point about using the same location over and over again. Been an issue for me as well.
As been mentioned earlier (by Mike?), maybe allowing more than the current 10% "old" footage is a good idea.

Not sure if allowing anonymously comments is a step in the right direction. One thing I really like about DVInfo is that you have to sign up with your real name. The result is a good civilized behavior without any trash talk.
But, if we should try it out, maybe those who prefer to receive comments anonymously could state that in their feedback thread, and people could then send comments for that particular entry to the uwol email, and then I as administrator could forward the comments without any names to that person.
Probably better/other ways this could be done...

In my original post I did agree that critique is important and like others had said it has been very helpful to them and likewise myself. The challenge has unfortunately now dwindled to a few regular participants with the odd new comer each round but they very rarely enter again.. Because of the rules on new footage many in the the past have submitted substandard videos in order to submit an entry, they have clearly indicated this in their synopsis, but have still received negative comments, we now no longer see them taking part. Many on here I am sure will have good ideas on how to update and promote uwol, my thoughts on comments were added in isolation, as my other concerns,new footage etc had already been raised.

Mick

Yes, I did mention that and in retrospect I wish I had been a good deal more tactful about it. I get the impression that I stepped on some toes and that some may have felt I was pointing fingers. In truth I was trying to avoid that. I apologize to any that found my words offensive. My point was that if this particular rule is so burdensome to many that perhaps we should consider revising it. I think there is little doubt that relaxing the rule will result in some films being better than they otherwise would be and perhaps some being completed that otherwise would not. I don’t like the idea of putting anyone in a position of having to make the difficult decision of whether to “bend” a rule or not do so and as a result end up in the shark tank. There is another consideration. This rule can severely limit the kind of stories we tell. It can be difficult enough to tell a story spanning the better part of a year without limiting oneself to only footage collected in less than a month.

I am not in principle opposed to anonymous comments but I wonder if they may sometimes result merely in the illusion of anonymity. [For example, I think my own style of writing may give the cat away. :) ] It can be very difficult to judge the intent of a written comment. As a result great care must be given when writing a serious critique. There is a UWOLer which in the past has provided me with much appreciated critique, but when I tried to reciprocate they took great umbrage. I don’t think my comments were either untrue or inappropriate but, to this day, they will respond to neither my posts nor my e-mails. This is something I deeply regret and it has certainly influenced my subsequent in-forum comments. Solicited private comments by e-mail are an entirely different matter.

I think we're talking about going in two different directions.

The whole part of the challenge isn't to use stuff that you've already shot, its about forcing you to think outside the box and challenge yourself to come up with something.

There's nothing right now from stoping you from using 80% previously shot footage if you want right now, you would just be exempt from judging but would still get feedback etc.

I haven't completed a lot of challenges lately because of time and life changes. Divorce and starting another life kind of takes a bit of focus away from filmmaking. :)

So I probably won't finish an entry for this current challenge, but I have a great idea.
I could put it all together with previously shot footage but where's the challenge?

Even if I don't submit an entry, I have the idea and I can still go out and challenge myself to shoot it with all new footage.

If you want to work on your editing or telling the story with previously shot footage, do it. There's no one here that says you can't. Just tell us. If you want to challenge yourself then shoot new stuff. But I don't think we should loosen the rules about previously shot footage unless we stop calling it a challenge.
I've shot enough over the years that I can probably complete future challenges without ever picking up a camera and going out. Not much of a challenge to me.

Since I've been putting my life back together I haven't ventured too far from Eastern Iowa. I've focused on the tallgrass prairie near my home. I work a day job 19 days in a row, many of them 12 hour days so I know what it's like to have limited time and limited locations. But again, it's a challenge. I've shot so much water that that when I look at all my challenge films, I've covered every inch of Indian Creek in them. So, I need to challenge myself to shoot the same locations and find something other than water.

I think we should have two tiers of feedback. Honest, general feedback and honest very detailed feedback. You decide which you want.

The shark in jaws was broken down for large portions of the film so they were challenged to tell a story Bout a shark while not being able to show a shark. Look at how that film worked out!

If your doing a film that hinges on one shot and you've already shot it, use it. But to say we can use 25%, 50% or even 100% previously shot film takes this from a challenge to an editing and story telling group.

That's my two cents at least.

Why are there so many UWOL entryes that have shared 1 place? There should be no room for more than one winner in a competition. It undermines the whole point of having votes and places.
Maybe this should be reviewed in the future?

Kevin makes a couple of very good points, especially that my approach would indeed water down the "challenge" aspect of the Challenge. If one really has to made good with what he/she can pull up under constraints, it certainly will improve one's videography. I continue to believe that the boredom factor is real, however. It may not be felt so much by folks who live near waterfalls and mountains, but for those who inhabit flat, gray-green environments with no seasons, and the ugly hand of real estate development at every turn, it becomes a bit of an issue.

Why are there so many UWOL entryes that have shared 1 place?
That's a mystery. But it does happen that 2 entries get the same amount of votes.
I continue to believe that the boredom factor is real, however. It may not be felt so much by folks who live near waterfalls and mountains, but for those who inhabit flat, gray-green environments with no seasons, and the ugly hand of real estate development at every turn, it becomes a bit of an issue.
Very valid point, Steve. And it happens with us who have both the ocean and mountains in our "back yard" as well.

The whole part of the challenge isn't to use stuff that you've already shot, its about forcing you to think outside the box and challenge yourself to come up with something.

There's nothing right now from stoping you from using 80% previously shot footage if you want right now, you would just be exempt from judging but would still get feedback etc.

I think we should have two tiers of feedback. Honest, general feedback and honest very detailed feedback. You decide which you want.

If your doing a film that hinges on one shot and you've already shot it, use it. But to say we can use 25%, 50% or even 100% previously shot film takes this from a challenge to an editing and story telling group.
This summarize it pretty well: UWOL is a CHALLENGE to challenge yourself as a film maker.

Each player can easily notify in their feedback thread if they want general feedback, or a very detailed one.

I get the impression that I stepped on some toes and that some may have felt I was pointing fingers. In truth I was trying to avoid that.
No, you did not step on any toes!
You should never be afraid to speak your mind, regardless if anyone might not enjoy what is being said.
UWOL can not improve if people are afraid to suggest changes since someone might not like it.
Keep speaking your mind, Mike!


Improvements are needed for sure. The clue is to find the right improvements and a good way to implement them, hopefully with effect from the September challenge.
Some will like the changes, some might not.
But even after changes are made, there will still be room for improvements and ideas and suggestions are most welcome, both now and at any later time.

I think the boredom factor of having nothing new to film is certainly an issue. I face it here. Look at my past films, most if not all have Indian Creek in them.

Then I think about That Tree. You know the project where this guy photographed the same tree every day for a year. So when I think about another challenge and shooting Indian Creek, I think about That Tree.

The stories are out there no matter what you have to work with. Someone could do a film about the battle of man vs weeds. I know it's a losing battle in my yard. If you live in a high rise in the city you could do a film about pigeons.
The stories are out there, you just need to see them.

I think the other issue is timing.

I'm leaving for Montana July 2nd. Plenty of wild there for me to film but it's after the challenge deadline.
Change the rules and allow more previously shot footage and I promise you'll see grizzly bears in the next challenge I shoot. :)

I'm sorry is I sound like I'm coming across as an ass but I think a challenge should be a challenge. Should it be so hard that it can't be done? No. But I think we've grown too complacent, myself included, with the shoot big or go home mentality.

UWOL should be a learning ground to improve your filmmaking. How many of us have entered a film that's not quite perfect then gone back and redone it after we were able to get the shots that we missed?

Why not post that to your feedback thread and then UWOL gets more traffic then just during challenge time?

Take the feedback you get, shoot the shots that you missed, re-edit your film and let's see what you can do.

Maybe we can do a end of year put a film together with everything you've shot over the past year and have like a UWOL Film Festival. No theme, just by the end of January you have to submit a film from footage you've shot over the entire past year.

So now I have five days to put my film where my mouth is and actually submit something, I'm working this weekend too so not much time, but I'll put something together,

Not an ass, by any means. Your opinions are always welcome, and, as usual, valid. In fact , you have given me the push I need to do the next one. (No entry this time as my camera has been in the shop since June 3).

I gave myself a push too Steve! :)

I'm prepping to go to Montana to film for a couple weeks so I've been focusing on that but now I've motivated myself to get an entry done this round.

We're a small niche compared to nature photography. How many other nature filmmakers do you run into?
Never seen another one here in eastern Iowa. So our numbers will always be low compared to filmmakers that shoot zombie flicks. You can throw a rock any direction here in Iowa and hot at least two filmmakers that shoot zombie films.

Nature and wildlife filmmaking is hard. I challenge any still photographer to tell me it's easier than still photography.

If most are like me, it's not easy submitting a film we feel isn't up to par. But I just got over it because it's a challenge and the perfect film won't always happen.

There's not one entry that I wouldn't go back and change something. If I can find the original projects, I may go back and revisit them. We'll see.

We all know that UWOL is capable of supporting more filmmakers. Just need to figure out the right recipe to bring them in.

In the early days the challenge was supported by many posters in the then strong UWOL forum when filming wildlife with the technology available then was more of a challenge. In recent times this forum has been largely neglected. Those few who still post there get very little response. Kevin has alluded to how specialised our art is. I do not pretend to know all the answers to rejuvenating things. Although the history of the challenge is important I believe we must start looking outside the present format, maybe make some painful decisions and redefine the UWOL definition of challenge in order to give more people with limit time a chance to participate.

A notification on my Facebook page from Kevin saying he had posted a long comment made me come here to see what's up. Hope you don't mind me chiming in.

Attracting more people to DV Info Net and this forum is important, of course. Then words, my friends, will help inspire people. Getting away from the challenge for awhile and now reading your comments makes me wonder what would happen if those of you who have participated would send Trond private messages with words on what inspires you to want to shoot nature videos. He could post one in every sign up thread to encourage those who love the outdoors to pick up a camera and shoot something, especially if they are just learning. And you would want to get some blurbs from Meryem, a master of inspiring words.

Indulge me in some ramblings, if you will. I only completed one UWOL challenge. The challenge to shoot something interesting AND make it as professional-looking as possible demanded time I didn't feel I had, and I sure wasn't going to submit another video with handheld footage that would be sub par by the naturally evolving standards set here.

Finding a way to tell people who may not even own a tripod that they have nature stories to tell is certainly a challenge. To attract a new crop of shooters you may need to reset, focusing on entertainment and creative thinking over technical achievement. The pinnacle of filmmaking is to make it entertaining AND technically professional. Some here have definitely reached that pinnacle and I have loved watching their entries. The veterans of UWOL need to keep up the great work, which is inspiring in itself. For the record, no one here has ever made me feel I wasn't welcome if not a pro shooter, so I'm not saying there's a fault of any kind. It is my opinion that where the challenge stands now is, as I said in the last paragraph, the result of a natural evolution.

Remember the kids who made a blind out of a rowboat and shot a video from it? Everyone celebrated it, partly because of the hilarity that ensued when they caught on camera the windstorm that blew their blind to Smithereens. I would watch enterprising and out-of-the box entries like that in a heartbeat, right alongside the lovely, professionally-produced and provocative films we have all grown to admire and appreciate so much...and everything in-between. There's room, and I think a need for the gamut; finding a way to convince new shooters of that and then encouraging them to keep at it is the challenge, right?

These are just thoughts, of course, a perspective from someone now on the outside looking in. Trusting you all will find ways to ignite some new flames. :)

The big downfall I believe was when we had a judge break the judging criteria and we ended up with co-winners. It certainly created a big rift and we lost filmmakers for sure because of it.


I remember that, I was one of the "co-winners" and the "rift" didn't last long. When I guessed (correctly) what the break in judging criteria was I totally supported Meryem's decision, congratulated the other co-winner, and closed off all further "discussion and dissension".

I don't think there was any lasting problem and I didn't see participation fall off at that point. I've kind of fallen away from the UWOL due to some personal things. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to jump in again.

Increasing the amount of time to do a challenge won't do much. We did a long for challenge and had a year to complete a film and most, myself included never finished.

I guess I'm just old school and a challenge should be just that.

Course, I also believe that kids shouldn't be allowed to use calculators on math tests, can't believe that kids have no clue what time a quarter to four is and couldn't make change to save their life if the cash register didn't tell them exactly how much to give back.

I still think a lot of it is that people come in, participate then life takes them elsewhere. I've never "stumbled" across UWOL searching for nature and wildlife filmmaking. If I wasn't already here, I'd never know it existed.

I think the key to keeping it going is to being able to be found.

What was the most people we had sign up back in "the day'? Thirty? Forty?

Back in the day, Kevin, we would have more like 75 sign-ups and up to 35 submissions. I think we averaged 20-25 actual entries for each contest. Usually roughly, half of the sign-ups would finish. Maybe a little less, say 40%

I put a ridiculous amount of energy into running UWOL - not saying that to toot my horn, just saying that is what it took to make the thing fly the way it did in the early days.

I ran it every other month consisently and, after two years of that, my head was ready to explode.

Trying the long-form contest was partly a way to give myself a break, as well as a way to introduce a new element to the contest and a way to challenge the "boredom" factor for the contest's loyal following. I would say it was the long-form contest which actually hurt the contest and not the "controversial" contest, (which as Bruce noted, was peacefully resolved).

(As an aside, Bruce and I had clarifying conversations about some mistakes that were made in the judging by my friend and mentor, who has now passed on from health-related issues which he struggled with, while judging UWOL. I can now say, for those who now remember that far back, that my Emmy award-winning friend made some procedural mistakes in judging which impacted the outcome. When I explained what happened - which I could not do publicly without discussing my friend's health issues, which I could not do without violating his privacy - then Bruce graciously accepted both the explanation and the outcome.)

Anyway, I think the long-form contest is what broke the continuity.

Although it gave a few some interesting experiences and challenges, it did not serve the many.

And honestly, by that time - year 3 - I was struggling to with burn-out. Three years of volunteering my time to anything - and especially something as demanding as UWOL was - is probably the limit of my endurance.

But here are the things that I think made it work so well up to that point.

1) consistency - running it every other month, rain or shine on the 1st of the month, let everyone schedule for it or decide against it, in advance. it kept the mojo - and it helped to draw in new players, so the core players didn't feel as much obligation to sign up for every round.

frankly, the more I was able to hew to this regimen, the more the contest thrived. That is really the big secret. I'm not trying to say Trond must do this - heck, I'm humbled and grateful to him and to Lorinda for caring enough to keep this thing going, for so many years! I'm just saying what worked.

in fact, between running the contest, finding the judges, putting energy into building the contest between the contests, I only had about 10 days-2 weeks every other month, before it started all over again. Plus, I was running a business and raising an infant - it was a little grueling.

2) I actually advertised the heck out of this thing, on my own accord. I forget all the names of the websites I would post to - but I didn't just post to DVinfo. I posted notices about it over all kinds of filmmaking and wildlife websites every month. I wanted it to be popular and fun and to build a following. I had link shares on our old website.

3) I paid for prizes out of my own pocket. These were pretty nice things. What became obvious, though, was it wasn't the prizes that were expensive, it was the international shipping! Dang those Norwegians for winning everything all the time, because the shipping usually cost more than the prizes! Eventually, I gave that up. It wasn't sustainable. I did it, because I was hoping that our numbers would help me to find some sponsors - and we did find a couple of small sponsors in DSC Labs and with an underwater company. I was grateful that they offered prizes - but they weren't things that they players themselves got that excited about....they never really became replacements for the goodies I was buying myself. So eventually, I was just giving away cash out of my own pocket. Which was cheaper than shipping prizes. But definitely not as exciting.

I think players would rather get a new $80 monopod than a $100 cash. It's more like a present, a gift, something you can point to and say "I won that!"

4) I tried to keep up the energy on the site between contests, keeping up with the players between contests, so it wouldn't just fade. I tried to make the community as important as the contest.

5) this should be #1, really, but I'm saving the best for last. The best thing that I did to build this contest was recruit Kevin and Mat to help me. I was never alone. I had their support, their brain trust, their loyalty and friendship, their commitment. I made two life-long friends who shared my love of the planet, of imaging, of playing together. Kevin may not have all of those e-mails we shared while building this thing. But I do. It was a special moment in time for the three of us, I think, to come together and try to do something which inspired ourselves and others.

I think those were the things which I did right -- and which I lucked into!--, to build the contest. It was always more than most people, except probably Mat and Kevin, could ever know or appreciate. Probably the one really big thing I did wrong was build an unsustainable schedule....but I did enjoy aiming high, for those 3+ years!

The online world has changed a lot since then, as Kevin noted. We used to have endless discussions over codecs! Fortunately, that doesn't have to happen anymore...

I think the new big discussion is outreach and marketing. How can UWOL stand above the fray? It was easy for Kevin, Mat, and I to do this because the fray wasn't as big. But I think that is the knottiest problem with it today.

Incidentally, I think the criticism discussion is easily resolved. Just build a scale. Are you a 1-2-3 on the criticism scale. 1= let me have it! be ruthless! I want to be the next Mat Thompson, and I want to crack into the professional wildlife cinematography at the highest levels. 2= I want to get better at this, but I'm here to have fun so give me good feedback but let's keep it light and fun as we do it 3= I'm not really here for the feedback as much as I am here to have fun and make stuff with people who love getting out there with cameras. I'm invoking Rule #11!

Put it in your feedback thread at the beginning, as in - On the criticism and feedback scale, I'm a 2 for this entry. That should help others understand better what you want from the contest.

The degree of criticism was another issue that Mat, Kevin, and I wrangled over - I think this is an easy fix for everybody. People really do come to this contest with different hopes and expectations. It's not one size fits all. But there's plenty of room for all kinds of players.

Trond has the right heart and soul for this contest. Maybe he just needs a coupla folks to step in and form a team. It's a lot of work to try to grow this thing alone, and it's a lot more fun when you don't have to....

Anyway, this is probably a lot longer than it needs to be, but there's my fifty cents!

I'm happy to see it still lives, muahaha!

The Yeti bows his humble head in reverence to his master! :)

Thank you, Yeti!

I'm not trying to say Trond must do this - heck, I'm humbled and grateful to him and to Lorinda for caring enough to keep this thing going, for so many years! I'm just saying what worked.
Thank you for your valuable inputs, Meryem. Much appreciated.

I'm already trying to spread the word about UWOL the best I can. (There are always room for improvements)
And as I have said before, ideas and suggestions are always most welcome anytime.

With regards to having someone to help. Several have already said "let me know if you need a helping hand", especially with theme suggestions. I might get back to you on that one guys and girls.

I found a email service thats free for up to 2000 people and 1200 email sends.

If you send out 1 email reminding on the signup tread before every UWOL signup (remember to link to the forum signup so people can press the link and sign up right away) that should go a long way with 4 emails a year.

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Try it out?

MailChimp is primarily for advertisers that want to send frequent ads and promotional marketing e-mails to thousands of customers. It is a bit overkill for us. Most e-mail client programs will allow you to set up a mail list. You send one e-mail to the list and everyone on the list receives it. It’s easy and the size restrictions are not limiting to us at the moment. I do it all the time in Thunderbird. If we ever get to the point where we would need to send out hundreds of reminder e-mails then MailChimp is one of several options available.

I'll have a look at it.

Just wondering if this is really necessary.

The UWOL Challenge happens regular as clockwork - March, June, September and December.

Simply put a reminder in your cell phone/calendar for one week prior to the next challenge and save Trond all this work.

This is a tool to make more people join the challenges. If you dont want to use it, dont sign up on the mailinglist, but i defenitely would!

Vergard's suggestion has the potential for for emails to be sent to organisations who do not necessarily subscribe to dvinfo.net. For example Jackson Hole FF, Wildscreen, Wildlife Film News, Universities etc. This way we can open to a much wider audience.

Mick

I can see the benefits of a regular email reminder going outside the forum as a form of advertising.

Just had the (mistaken) impression that this was only intended to be sent as a reminder to past and current UWOL Challenge members who already have the info - which would just heap more work on Trond unnecessarily - I could not see that idea yielding much fruit.

Vergard's suggestion has the potential for for emails to be sent to organisations who do not necessarily subscribe to dvinfo.net. For example Jackson Hole FF, Wildscreen, Wildlife Film News, Universities etc. This way we can open to a much wider audience.

Mick
I'll keep it in mind when I go through all the ideas and suggestions from this thread while looking at the rules/guidelines.

Maybe one "problem or cause" of the limited number of people participating in the uwol challenge, is a somewhat limited interest for wildlife film on dvinfo. Reaching out to a broad audience of likeminded people is worth checking out.

I was under the same impression as Marj. What is now being discussed is certainly a whole other kettle of fish.

I put a ridiculous amount of energy into running UWOL… I ran it every other month consistently and, after two years of that, my head was ready to explode.

Honestly I really don’t think we’d still be running this contest today if it hadn’t been for you, Meryem.

I actually advertised the heck out of this thing, on my own accord. I forget all the names of the websites I would post to - but I didn't just post to DVinfo. I posted notices about it over all kinds of filmmaking and wildlife websites every month. I wanted it to be popular and fun and to build a following. I had link shares on our old website.

That’s very much appreciated, but I’d like to give a word of caution to anyone else who tries this: some site owners might be sensitive to this sort of thing, so proceed with care. If it helps, I’d be more than happy to post shared links on DVi. In other words, if you can get some other site elsewhere on the web to help put the word out about the UWOL Challenge, then I’ll give them a link on DVi, and that’s a pretty good deal.

I paid for prizes out of my own pocket. What became obvious, though, was it wasn't the prizes that were expensive, it was the international shipping! Eventually, I gave that up. It wasn't sustainable.

You should never have had to do that. From this point forward those expenses will be covered by the sponsors and / or DVi. And somehow or someday I’d like to reimburse you.

I did it, because I was hoping that our numbers would help me to find some sponsors. So eventually, I was just giving away cash out of my own pocket.

I hope you can give me a dollar amount on that sometime. I’d sure like to pay you back.

MailChimp is primarily for advertisers that want to send frequent ads and promotional marketing e-mails to thousands of customers. It is a bit overkill for us. Most e-mail client programs will allow you to set up a mail list. You send one e-mail to the list and everyone on the list receives it. It’s easy and the size restrictions are not limiting to us at the moment. I do it all the time in Thunderbird. If we ever get to the point where we would need to send out hundreds of reminder e-mails then MailChimp is one of several options available.

DVi uses MailChimp for its occasional newsletters — for example, I just sent one out last night with a coupon code for the Cutting Edge Post-Production Tour with Adam Epstein. If you got it, it’s a big help to me if you click through and check it out.

I’d be more than happy to use our current subscriber list for any dedicated UWOL Challenge mail outs. Also, n the past I’ve added a UWOL Challenge banner to our newsletter and that can be done again at any time.

Vergard's suggestion has the potential for for emails to be sent to organisations who do not necessarily subscribe to dvinfo.net. For example Jackson Hole FF, Wildscreen, Wildlife Film News, Universities etc. This way we can open to a much wider audience.

All i need is the send list and the message and it can go out on DVi’s MailChimp account if y’all decide that you want to reach out to those folks.