Hi Guys

I know Pete Rush was having some issues in 50P with pixellation especially on cheek bones of people (because it tends to be a high lighted area). Peter also had a few issues with areas that are slightly over-lit or over exposed where the colour goes either weird or smudgy. Did you sort them out Pete?


Has anyone else had these kind of issues lately.

Chris

I did a few tests today as the morning was nice and sunny both in HA mode (17mbps) and PS Mode (28mbps) to see if I could pick up any posterisation or pixellation on objects and faces and nothing showed up at all. However I WAS using the no profile setting instead of my usual PP3 so I'm wondering if the fact that PP3 pushes detail in shadows means that it might also push details in overexposed highlights too?? I tried over exposing a face (reluctant wife) and the cheek bones are clean even if they are bright.

Pete? What was the outcome of your white toaster in the driveway test ?? The only other variable was that I was using my 28-75 and 17-50 Tamrons as opposed to the stock lens but I cannot see how the lens would contribute to the issue

Anyone else see the problem on 50P footage ..my 50i and 50P footage are virtually identical ..very hard to tell apart with a variety of objects/scenes/people so I'm really not sure what causes the issue.

Chris

Hi Chris - I'm right in the thick of it at the moment so don't have a ton of time but I can definitely tell you that using PP3 as soon as skin tones over expose I get posterization - not nice at all, and not the graduated blow out that even though incorrect at least looked nicer on my old Z1. It seems to affect skin tones more than say white shirts/dresses etc

The last few weddings were on really sunny days so I'm constantly concious of blowing out any highlights so I'm watching my Zebras like a hawk - resulting in somewhat underexposed shots to keep the wedding dress from blowing out etc, but they can easily be fixed. I haven't had time to do a 50p vs 50i yet.

Manual knee settings on my white toaster test tended to flatten the gradation - auto yielded a more natural blow out.

If I recall right I had the best results using no preset at all, pp3 was useful inside though as it didn't crush the blacks that much but no preset gave me the nicest image overall but that can be up to personal taste. I"m sure 50p/50i has not much to do with it, those presets mess with the image the most and can have side effects.

After tests today Noa I think you are right on the button. In 50P I could not detect any evidence of any of Pete's issues using no profile on the camera .. I must admit I never used Panny's scene files when I had my HMC cameras either. I am pretty sure that PP3 is the problem ... You can easily use it indoors as well but it does over saturate facial tones but that's easy to do by just dropping saturation level a small amount.

Funny I have never had the issue using 50i and using PP3 but then I have to put up with a tiny resolution drop and I do tend to get worse moire ..(well not really moire but like shimmering on something like brick paving) which doesn't happen in 50P

I do realise you are busy Pete as it's your peak season and it's our dead period due to the cold and wet weather in Winter here. Maybe you need to just turn off profiles ... the result is very consistent ...I'm not sure what "no profile" has applied but I know on my Panasonics, no scene file (or using their default Scene 1) they had everything set to default which was usually zero and they worked pretty well ...It's much easier to do a tiny saturation adjustment than try to "repair" posterisation problems.

Thanks again guys!!

Chris

I did a wedding fairly recently with no PP and it really does crush the blacks which then need lifting - maybe it's just my preference :/

Thanks Pete

Yep is does make black very crushed and sadly most weddings are snow white dresses and jet black suits so we have to contend with a huge contrast ratio. I also find that indoor footage with no profile needs a touch of de-saturation as skin tones tend to make people look a little over tanned!! That also seems to fix the blacks to a degree too!! However it seems to fix the posterisation issue though which is good.

In Sony Vegas Colour Curves I have a preset curve I made up that lifts detail in shadow areas and also kills the black level a bit which works very well with indoor footage ... Are you happy with colour saturation otherwise? It was hard with my test yesterday as it wasn't a very bright day. Dave Vickers used the "no profile" on his Golf Video and it looked pretty good to me. I think by controlling the black/white blowouts and using this preset we will not get any posterisation at all.

Chris

Hi Pete

I have just finished shooting a fun run this morning and checked the footage all shot in PSMode and there is no funny pixellation nor any weird colour even on blown out faces (it was an early one ! Yes I had to get out of bed at 4am and it was 5 degrees outside!) so as the sun came up during the race I had a few blown out faces but none of the issues you seem to have so it maybe looks like the trouble-maker is definitely the PP3 setting??

Just thought I would let you know

Chris

Thanks Chris - For now I'm going with PP3 for indoor work (ceremonies/speeches etc) and no profile for outdoor filming. When this season dies down I'll be doing some tests ready for next season.

Great Pete

When you get a chance Adobe must have some sort of colour curves and if you use a stock standard diagonal curve and just add a small bump in the bottom bit it kills any over crushing of blacks and also brings the skins tones back to normal using no profile. I was going to stick with PP3 indoors but I KNOW I will forget to change the darn profile ..I have done it before so I'll just add the curve in post. That way I don't have to remember to change it.

The thing that worries me is the time factor at a Church ..the bride walks out of the entrance after doing her exit and sometime during the time she leaves the interior and hits the sunshine you have to stop the camera and change the profile and maybe miss things that are going on.

I only have one wedding this month being freezing July so I'll just shoot with none ..My wedding next weekend is an outdoor one too!! Crazy bride !!

I'll let you know what I find with changing the black level in post for this one.

I must admit the fun run this morning looked rather good but I still had to tweak the saturation up just a tiny bit to make it perfect...it really works well in bright daylight! I had one staff member on the run actually looking straight into the sun (for some warmth I suppose) and her face blew out totally but still quite usable with nothing weird.

Chris

Here's another example - The marquee was quite dark so I let the outside over expose - look at the bridesmaid's face! This was using PP3

Hey Pete

I looked thru all my corporate footage from Sunday and there was plenty of faces from the fast changing light and not a single issue with the no profile so it must be the PP3 setting that doesn't like bright conditions in any part of the frame. Mine was all in PS mode too ! I did another shoot today with a talking head and again clean as a whistle so I really think that it's the profile that's causing the issue as it's designed to lift detail out of shadows and when it gets an over-exposed shot it also lifts the detail and causes the posterisation issue. Part of my shoot today was also indoors and yes, the blacks are crushed but I'd rather drop their level than have to contend with the weird colours. The no profile also pushes the range quick hard and I find that sometimes blacks seem to drop below zero and whites go over limit on my vectorscope waveform so I have a colour curve corrector have kills the top and bottom levels to keep them in limits and the pull the black level just a wee bit.

I think it's definitely the PP3 lifting the shadow detail too much. I'm shooting everything with no profile now. The curve is really simple ..it kills blacks below the 16 level and kills whites higher than 234 ...without the curve blacks go all the waway to zero and whites to 255

Chris

+1 Chris - I'm going to continue using PP3 for indoor work but will use no profile for outdoors - a bit of tweaking in post and it's good to go - think I'll keep the EA50 for next season as well - loving it with my Canon lenses!

Pete

i have Pixellation and blur video in Night Scene low light,with the stock lens,I do not have another lens 2.8 to compare.The Pixellation comes from the lens or the sensor camera?
50p not test in 50i

Here's another example - The marquee was quite dark so I let the outside over expose - look at the bridesmaid's face! This was using PP3

I didn't see that example before, it must have something to do with how the camera processes overexposed areas, I have not seen this kind of behaviour yet on my 1080p 50p camera's.

Hi Serggio

What picture profile are you using? Pete seems to get it when he uses PP3 and I think that's due to the fact that Profile 3 tends to lift highlights in shadowed areas. At night a bright light amongst all the black darkness will cause a highlight flare and that seems to be the issue ..when there is overexposed highlights and when you are using PS mode which is double frame rate.

To be honest I still shoot in 50i at 24mbps and then decode to a 25P timeline in Sony Vegas and I never have the issue ..My Panasonic cameras also used to pixelate in 50P mode but not posterize like Pete shows ...I can use any profile at 50i and never an issue on the EA-50's

I STILL think that when the camera has a very complex scene to digitize it's 28 mbps bitrate falls apart ...someone said to me that the minimum bitrate for 50P with AVCHD files should be 50 mbps. However that was someone else's comment not my opinion!

Can you post a frame grab from the footage and give us an idea of the profile used??? Maybe it will ring some bells in someone's head??

Chris

Chris i use PP3 for this video have Pixellation iso 2500/ 1/50 f 5.6
link for demo,download it is better from play
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7bv4uijv37xdhjz/00066.MTS?dl=0
i make test in 50i without profile.

Hi Serggio

Yep I see your problem!! It looks like to me that the camera cannot write all the 50P data fast enough to the card! Are you using at least a Class 10 card in the camera ... a slow card will also cause that issue and even poor brands of cards that are marked as Class 10 often are slower. I only use Transcend Class 10 and have had issues even with Sandisk cards.

In 50i the workload on the camera is way less, even in XA mode which is 24 mbps and I always use PP3 except I have lifted the colour level up 3 points in the profile as it's very flat. You can use PP3 very well in XA mode (50i) with no issues ..For indoors "no profile" is hard to colour correct . The blacks are VERY crushed with no profile and you will struggle with people using dark suits!!! so PP3 is way better

If you are going to work in 50P then I would suggest get the best and fastest cards you can find and stick with PP3 even with 50i

Go into the PP3 profile on the camera and change the colour level setting from zero to "+3" ..it's perfect for indoors and doesn't need too much adjustment for outdoor shots in the sun. It's a really nice modification!!

Your main problem still looks like a poor SDHC card but I still stick to 50i at the best setting and get awesome results.

Chris

I just looked at the clip but don't see where you see issues with the transferspeed of the recorded data to the card? I do see something that looks a bit like interlacing but where exactly do you see the pixellation?

i have this Sony SDHC 32GB Class 10
http://a.scdn.gr/images/sku_main_images/001859/1859854/large_12480348-Sony.jpg
Chris what is XA mode?
Noa i play this in my tv monitor 42 with Pixellation

That should be OK as a card so that's puzzling!!

The sample file I assume is direct from the camera as it's an MTS file. There is pixellation at the beginning especially on the guy's bald head. 50P mode tends to favour areas that highlight like bald patches on heads and cheek bones on faces.

Sorry Serggio I meant FX mode for 50i not AX Mode .. my brain wasn't working!!

I haven't experience the problem on my Sony's but Peter did find that it tends to occur only in 50P when you are using PP3 .... When I do use 50P on commercial shoots I don't use PP3 so I never see the problem.

Did any of your other footage have the problem or was it just this clip?

Chris

Noa i play this in my tv monitor 42 with Pixellation

Ok but where do you see pixelation? The footage looks fine to me.

Noa Maybe it has a lot of noise from the iso 2500,whats better to use iso or db and at what safe prices?

iso and gain is the same, they just use different values. Higher iso (like 2500 and above) will result in more noise but again, your image looks fine, even on my bigger tv screen so I don't know what exactly you are referring to. It might help if you would export a frame and draw some kind of arrow (in a photoshop aike program) pointing at where you are seeing the problem.

Maybe someone else can have a look? Maybe I need a pair of glasses :)

my glasses is fine,the lens glasses is not good in night shots this video is not good take it in 3 meters in more meter in low light the image video not see,very blur image video and in particular in the hair of humans more 3 meters in low light with video light Comer CM-LBPS1800
the day has good image

Hi Noa

The hair of the two guys serving themselves is very smudgy especially the one of the left? There should be any blur at 50P at all ... might be just due to the ISO level but I don't see a lot of noise in the picture so I'm not sure the iso level is at fault either. It's a very short clip ..maybe a longer one would help?

Chris

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dc1h7ofo5gqok4j/00043.MTS?dl=0
blur image video and in particular in the hair of humans more 3 meters in low light with video light Comer CM-LBPS1800
download not play

Ok I downloaded that and the video looks absolutely perfect to me?? There is no blur and no pixellation at all

Chris

the hair of humans is blur in your full hd tv 1920x1080 whats your monitor,is big full hd? i have default tv lg full hd tv monitor view from 60 Points and the the hair of humans is blur,what's the matter?

I'm looking at it on my computer monitor which is a 23" and I cannot see any issues. Are you connecting to your TV direct from the camera? If so are you using an HDMI cable ..using the video out cables will drop the format down to SD 720x576

Chris

using an HDMI cable from pc to tv and the video play from hard disc.
the Pixellation is the same in 50p and 50i see the dog's feet.With canon lens 1.8
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6buwnrp3gm4liqr/00016.mp4?dl=0

The camera has enough trouble in moire & aliasing,and this creates the Pixellation the sony does not see to fix it with upgrade firmware????

see the dog's feet.

Ok, I now see what you mean, btw, I was not making fun of you when I said I might need glasses, I actually do :) But in the previous videos I couldn't see what you where talking about as to me these looked fine and what I would expect from the nex-ea50.

The dogs feet are clear now what the issue is, I have seen this as well when I had the camera, I shot in a church with the nex-ea50 and a sony cx730 and in the distance there was a stained glass window with a saint pictured in it that had lots of fine detail, my cx730 was able to show the different lines in the glass so I could see a saint was portrait in it while the ea50 could not, there was some kind of shimmering going on (or "pixelation") which blurred the lines together, there I only could see there was a window but not what image was in the stained glass.

The ea50 produces quite some moire and aliasing and I believe this is what is causing that pixelation on very fine detail (like you said), not much you can do about it, that's just a limitation of the camera and that's not something they can fix with a firmware update, I believe the sensor is actually one not optimised for video but for photo.

button for photo not there should be a video camera, they do not need a professional, has much better photo with Canon nikon and lens 2.8 1.4 1.8. i take this camera for wedding but with this moire & aliasing I will not use it at all embarrassed at weddings,feel that I threw my money.
The previous camera hxr nx5 I had trouble in back focus issue and the nex 50eh moire & aliasing is the last time, I will not trust Sony camera again in any case we.
The Sony and introduced the well that has a large sensor, but we do not say they have enough problems in moire & aliasing,the large sensor in nex ea 50 is pure marketing for sales.
I have not taken a hoot with this camera I have only two months, I lost Opposite customers blame the moire & aliasing especially in long shots.
With the money that I gave you and buy lumix gh4
and money for me and many coffees, now drink orange juice, what you drink?

For weddings it's actually a nice camera, I have used it for a year and really liked it, I got rid of it mainly because I found it too big to use. Never had a client complaining about the image quality.

button for photo not there should be a video camera, they do not need a professional, has much better photo with Canon nikon and lens 2.8 1.4 1.8. i take this camera for wedding but with this moire & aliasing I will not use it at all embarrassed at weddings,feel that I threw my money.
The previous camera hxr nx5 I had trouble in back focus issue and the nex 50eh moire & aliasing is the last time, I will not trust Sony camera again in any case we.
The Sony and introduced the well that has a large sensor, but we do not say they have enough problems in moire & aliasing,the large sensor in nex ea 50 is pure marketing for sales.
I have not taken a hoot with this camera I have only two months, I lost Opposite customers blame the moire & aliasing especially in long shots.
With the money that I gave you and buy lumix gh4
and money for me and many coffees, now drink orange juice, what you drink?

I haven't noticed significant issues with moire and aliasing with my EA50. Maybe I don't pixel peep as much.. but it hasn't ever bothered me. And I've never had a client complain about the image quality.

People tend to forget that this is an entry-level camera, and it's very well-priced for what you get. If it had much better imagine quality, it would be encroaching on Sony's more expensive large sensor cameras.

Hi Serggio

Me too! I have shot many many weddings on my EA-50's and brides have been happy with the results ...These cameras are 14 months old now and no issues. I see a few bits of moire now and again but it doesn't bother me ...the FS700 and double the price can also get moire on detailed objects. My Panasonic cameras over the years with 3 chips also had the occasional bit of moire which never was an issue.

I simply don't get any pixellation at al with either camera but then again I shooting 50i and then blending frames into 25P footage at editing so maybe that is less noticeable??

You can always sell the camera and buy something else? I'm happy with mine! Maybe look at a JVC HM850? Brilliant camera but twice the price of course!!

Chris

Chris maybe you could pull my one minute video with the lens 18 200 at full zoom out a car sideways to see if your camera recorders or moire & aliasing?

Hi Serggio

Are you serious? You want to point the camera out a car window at full zoom and drive down the road ???

May I ask why??? That won't cause any moire but you will certainly get some blur at 200mm if the car is speeding down the road!

Moire is caused by fine patterns that the sensor cannot handle well ..I even see it on broadcast TV! Film someone with a shirt that has thin vertical stripes on it and you see moire or anything that has fine vertical or horizontal lines ..Often you will get it on roof tiles or slates as a shimmering .... 99.9% of viewers don't even notice it!!

I'm still wondering why you want to film out of a moving car at full zoom?

Chris

Chris maybe were not understood, if have the time wrote a car from the side stops the car not in motion static at full zoom out like this directly from camera not edit or convert original MTS file (download not play) https://www.dropbox.com/s/eyba2xqgu7xfql1/00020.MTS?dl=0

Hi Serggio

Thanks I have it downloaded and see your problem .. the hard edges of the car are shimmering ...

I'll shoot some footage of my car for you (it's raining at the moment though!) It's worse at wide angle too.

Comments from anyone else in the meantime??

Chris

That is pretty bad. I haven't noticed that with my EA50. Could it be a defective sensor or something?

Hi Jody

I would suspect it's on the PP3 setting and shot in bright sunlight and you can see how over-exposed the footage is too. PP3 has a knee setting that is designed to lift detail from shadows in low light so in bright sunshine it doesn't work so well as it's lifting highlighted hard edges on the car body which you don't want.

Serggio?? Can you tell us what profile you used..it looks like PP3 and was the camera on full auto??

I would suspect that the shutter was way up and the aperture was probably F16 at least so it would have more than likely over exposed badly. If you can remember what the shutter and iris indicated that would also be useful. Try the same sort of shot at PP4 profile and see if it does the same thing??

Chris

no profile f 7.1 iso 500 in new test with pp3 pp4 is the some problem and f 16 as much
ask all of you send me something similar to see and compare with my problem please!!!

no profile f 7.1 iso 500 in new test with pp3 pp4 is the some problem and f 16 as much
ask all of you send me something similar to see and compare with my problem please!!!

What was the shutter speed? It is possible that a high shutter speed could cause those issues.

I'll send you something similar tomorrow, it's currently night here.

thanks jody the shutter speed is 150 but and 50 shutter speed with f 16 have the problem

It's night time here as well and it's pouring with rain!

The clip looked very over-exposed to me Serggio ..was that manual exposure cos with auto the image should never be so washed out, with no profile it really crushes the black level down to zero or even lower so if anything with no profile at least the blacks should have been very solid and I see none of that.

I checked out the clip in Sony Vegas Videoscopes and the whites are blown out over 120% ...if you drop the gamma curve down 50% to try and correct the levels the shimmering has virtually gone but the overall image is still over-exposed.

Try a clip again with correct exposure or run the camera in full auto ... In progressive mode you do need to keep the shutter a LOT lower either with ND filters or smaller iris otherwise the highlights will still blow out in such bright light!

Chris

Chris i make 1 more test with full camera auto have the some broblem,you are melbourne???have good friend photographer there,if you want to get to know,thornbury victoria australia

Hi Serggio

Nope, I'm in Perth 4000km to the West!!

I looked at some of my wedding footage when the shiny limos arrive and there is a tiny sparkle here and there. In 50P especially you do need to keep your shutter speed low and if the camera iris cannot close any more you need to put on an ND filter to reduce the light and shutter speed. At weddings I sometimes just don't have time to do that so I put up with the odd bit of aliasing ... When you shoot in auto make a note of the aperture and shutter speed in the sun, then move the car into the shade and test again and you will see the difference!!

At weddings I have no choice where the car stops so I usually shoot that with a manual lens so I can stop right down so my shutter is at a decent speed ...At 50P try to keep it at 100 or lower ..in 50i you can usually get away up to 1/400th but in super bright sun in auto you still might get a few sparkles.

If you want to shoot and expose manually then use zebras at 90% and make sure ONLY stuff like skies have the stripes on them ...if the car is full of stripes then you need to close down the iris!!

Chris

persist in believing that my camera has a problem in the lens or the sensor,by the end of next week we will ship in Sony