I want to get a new camera since my Canon T2i is wearing old.

I asked around some say to get a blackmagic pocket camera. I want a camera that is not full frame, because then I have a little more deep DOF, but also if I want to use a telephoto lens, I can make the lens even longer therefore.

But I also want one where during color grading, I can separate the skin tones in Da Vinci, without having color noise issues. In a thread long before, I talked about how I was having trouble separating the skin tones, from the rest of the color in a scene:

https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv-discussion/536712-does-anyone-know-how-make-luts-better-than.html

I was told before that it was because of my cameras codec issues, so I want a camera where you can separate the skin tones, successfully, without noise issues. But can the blackmagic cameras do that successfully?

Or are there better cameras for these needs?

The BM Pocket 4K and 6K are great for grading.

Generally for good grading, you need at least a 10bit camera preferably supporting 4:2:2 or better supporting some log format.

Oh okay, well as I understand it, the Canon T2i I have is 8 bit and 4:2:0. Does the extra 2 bits and the extra 4:2:2: as oppose to 4:2:0 really make a lot more difference in grading without noise issues?

Yes, it makes a big difference.

Basically with an 8-bit 4:2:0 in Rec709, there is no much room for any grading.

Oh okay thanks. As long as the new camera with that codec actually works though, and I can isolate the skin tones, completely, with no noise :)

Oh lord.

The cam/codec is only a small part of it. If you dont light correctly and have art direction and set design oriented toward separating skin tones, the best cam in the world isnt going to help you

Conversely, if you DO do those things, even your T2i probably wouldnt have too much of an issue.

Dont go thinking buying a new cam is going to magically make DaVinci able to distinguish skin tones from similarly colored things around them with identical lighting levels. All those things have to work together.

He referring to Davinci Resolve ability to separate skin tones from the background. You can see it in this video.
https://youtu.be/AqTr_TuE-SY

This is a rehash of Ryan wanting to change the wall color of a location wall he wasn't allowed to repaint.

For that type of grade I actually think 10bit color would be helpful and BMPCC 4k is the most affordable camera currently on the market.

Yes it's probably the case there are far more important areas he should be concentrating on. The other thing is that many of these tutorials use video that would be easiest to employ this technique ie a subject that isn't moving, in front of a different looking background, and properly light.

I wouldn't get worked up too much since I can't see him being able to afford the necessary equipment and grading process.

I'm sure a better codec IS helpful but the question itself is flawed, since it should be "what things do I need to do when filming to pave the way for a grade that allows separation of skin tones from background" and instead, what I see is "I'm about to spend money on a camera and fail to realize it will not solve my issue".

With Ryan it’s mostly talk. Last year it was super telephotos, then cinema lenses, most recently gimbals and now 10 bit cameras. But I agree it’s an odd reason to buy a camera to solve such a specific problem.

Oh lord.

The cam/codec is only a small part of it. If you dont light correctly and have art direction and set design oriented toward separating skin tones, the best cam in the world isnt going to help you

Conversely, if you DO do those things, even your T2i probably wouldnt have too much of an issue.

Dont go thinking buying a new cam is going to magically make DaVinci able to distinguish skin tones from similarly colored things around them with identical lighting levels. All those things have to work together.

Oh okay thanks, but what if it's an outdoor scene and you cannot light because the sun has already lit everything much more powerfully than lights would.

How do you separate the skin tones if you are outdoors and it's uncontrolled more? But I do see movies where the skin tones look separated, even though it's outdoors though. How do they do it?

For example I watched the movie The Farewell (2019), and noticed that it had a teal and orange type of color grade, which you need to separate the skin tone in order to do. However, the outdoor scenes had this as well with the city streets in the background and the streets are blue. Unless they literally were allowed to repaint the entire streets and statues on the streets, blue, and this is not a teal and orange grade done in post?

The pick a location that facilitates the separation (colors that don't compete with skin tones) or more likely, they have a budget and they use lights and flags to control things.

Oh okay, but in the movie how did they make the outdoors look so blue? Did they light the background blue, but blue enough that it overpowers the sun?

Sorry I didn't see the part about the The Farewell.

It's a 50/50 thing...you dress people, pick locations, light, possibly design set/art direct with that look in mind for post, and you take it the rest of the way in post. So maybe everything blue in the final look was grey in real life or at least desaturated, if not grey, in real life...no strong colors.

In the video Pete posted, notice how she's wearing a nearly colorless shirt, and standing against a grey wall. If it was a peach colored wall or a red shirt or both, that colorist would have had some issues.

Oh okay, but what about videos I see where they have a very teal and orange look and it's outside though? A filmmaker cannot light in pure sunlight, cause the sun will over power everything, of course. So how do they do the lighting to separate the skin tone, when the sun is out and it's outside?

There are actually ARE lights that can compete with the sun, at least to a degree. Furthermore, there are flags, silks, etc....giant things to diffuse or block direct sunlight, at which point you can make your own sun/create your own outdoor lighting with an HMI or other powerful light, especially in closeups or tighter shots that don't show as much environment. There's also shooting at the right time of day in the right location, facing the right way...making sure the sun is hitting the things you want it to while leaving the rest in shadow. Any number of solutions for outdoor on a sunny day, with a proper budget.

And there's always frame by frame rotoscoping the grade (draw mask around skin, push toward orange, color inverse teal, move to next frame, tweak mask, rinse and repeat) when none of the above are viable.

Oh okay thanks. When it comes to drawing a mask wouldn't you have to track the mask around the actors' face and arms and wherever skin is showing, and track frame by frame though?

Also, if I shoot at a time of day when the sun is not in the background so much will that really be enough to separate the skin tones?

It was said that I should shoot against grey backgrounds in order to do that. However, where I live so many buildings are white and brown though, along with interiors being mostly white. Is it possible separate skin tones from white, without getting noise issues? Or would I have to use masking for that?

Reflectors are the way to go if you don't have large enough lights.

Programs like Resolve allow you to do secondary colour grading like this, however, you should ensure that you're using low compression media with good chroma sub sampling, otherwise you risk artifacts..

Unless you really know what you're doing, I wouldn't get too involved in attempting this in a low budget film. You'll probably put more effect into doing this than making the rest of the film.

Since you don't have a Gareth Edwards level of knowledge ( I remember his visual effects work on TV programmes in the 2000s) to do this nor the funds to pay for a good colourist, I would avoid painting yourself into a corner and do what creative people do with limited resources, come up with a new way of doing things, think of new ideas, alternatives.

Again, this is what directors do.

Okay thanks. How about this for an idea. What if I lit the actors so bright, that the walls were dark enough that maybe I can separate the skin tones, without the program being confused, because the walls are dark enough that the skin can separate easily, cause it's lit so much more bright than the walls. Would this be better?

Perhaps don't light with a fill light at all, or a very dim fill light, much more dim than the key light? Doing this may be create a very dark shadowy film noir type look though, but maybe that's good for separating skin tones, if the walls are white in so many locations?

Who is doing this colour correction work work? You or someone else?

I was hoping I could do it to save money. But if not, and someone else should do it, then I would want to shoot it correctly for them. I can talk to a DP and see what he says to, rather than thinking that I'll probably end up shooting it myself.

As is usual with these things, download Resolve, shoot some tests and see if it works. This is even more important if you're planning to do this yourself, because you won't get a definitive answer on if you personally can do this on a forum.

If you aren't going to do it personally, ask the person who is going to do it before you start filming. This is because they are going to dig you out of any holes they you end up in.

Regarding Lighting, it's the DPs job to balance the lighting so that everything works the way the scene needs.

Oh okay thanks, I downloaded resolve and ran tests in trying to separate skin tones, but I've tested footage where I did not have control of the lighting, and there was noise. However, in some projects I won't be able to control lighting such as a live event for example, so how do you separate skin tones in such events, where the lighting is uncontrolled? Or do you not, and cannot do that in resolve for uncontrolled lighting or outdoors?

You need a better camera, using a higher quality codec than your current DSLR camera uses for this type of work. Until then you're just playing around, because you need to test with the camera being used on the shoot/

In live situations you often have to go with the flow, using what looks good. "Correct" flesh tones may look unrealistic, however, using a key light with the correct temperature is the quickest way of doing this. There are battery powered LED units that can do this job.

Oh okay, when you say correct temperature, what would be the correct temperature? In my opinion I like the look of the 3200 color temperature cause the skin tones look less pink-ish, but that's just my opinion.

The correct colour temperature will depend on the type of lighting being used at the location. 3200K could look wrong if the location has 3700K, 4500k or 5000K. You have to use your eyes.

Like all of Ryan threads they start with a simple question and then expand out in multiple subjects.

You should rent a pocket camera, film similar things that you intended to use, then play around in resolve instead of asking us what if questions that we can’t answer.

Your other questions reveal that you don’t have good working knowledge of professionally lighting in different situations. I get the feeling you want to use color grading to avoid the time and expense of properly lighting a scene.

Aha! Exactly what I thought. Ryan is always looking for technology to get him out of messing up the basics. I cannot think of a single circumstance in the past 40+ Years where I had a problem separating skin tones. Have I totally missed some kind of real problem?

What I have learned is that some video roles I'me actually pretty poor at. While I can operate things like resolve, and have lots of plugins for LUTs in Premiere. Sadly, I just don't have the eye, so this is one Ryan topic I simply cannot add to.

The correct colour temperature will depend on the type of lighting being used at the location. 3200K could look wrong if the location has 3700K, 4500k or 5000K. You have to use your eyes.

Oh okay, but we are not using the lights in the location are we? Wouldn't we just be using our lights entirely, to get the color temperature we want instead of switching on the lights in the location as well? Or are you saying it will look awkward if there are lights in the location but they are not switched on? Do you think maybe the audience will pay attention to the story instead hopefully, and not think about whether the lights in the location are on, if the movie is already lit by lights they cannot see?

But if the audience needs the lights on though, I could put gel over the lights, to change the color temperature, but would they see the gel?

Your knowledge seems rather limited.

You can change the colour temperature of your light(s) to match that of the location, you can mix the colour temperatures, if that gives the look you want. Other colours can be added to your lights. You can just use some of the practical lights at the location ort all of them or none of them.

The only limitations are your and your DP's; imaginations and the requirements of the story. People here can't give you answers because they don't have the full information and it's something you should be discussing with your DP.

Oh okay thanks, but instead of matching my lights to the locations lights, shouldn't I rather get the location lights to match mine, if my lights have a better color temperature?

Now we've stopped talking about grading, I'll rejoin.

If you go into an office with dozens of fluorescent tubes, or a restaurant with loads of low wattage tungsten lamps, or shops, or practically any location with lighting how exactly would you recolour them all? You can buy the gel to do it - and it's quite expensive, but the killer is access and time. Much simpler to recolour your lights as a. they're fewer and b. designed to be tweaked. Lights do NOT have better colour temperatures - where did you get this notion from? The point of having them all the same is to prevent colour casts when multiple colour temperatures are in use, because for all intents and purposes, they are different colours - usually a bit redder or a bit bluer. Flu tubes tend to have a greenish cast. The usual decision on what to regel for matching is that you recolour the brightest light sources. Gels are lossy things, so a dimmer light source would be the worst one to recolour. It means that when you have mixed lighting with artificial and the sun, either direct or through windows. You can gel the windows of course, but that's expensive and time consuming. Surely you wouldn't shoot in an office and want to wrap every tube? Even if they'd let you.

Look at the scene, determine where your extra lighting goes and match it. It's really not rocket science, but you've not got much experience at lighting either it seems. If there is sunlight, then you need punch and a high colour temperature - so I'd still be looking at discharge fixtures. Lots of the newer LEDs are now bright and can have their temperature tweaked. Just keep in mind that the cheaper ones are still very spikey and can produce some odd colours that may stand out.

If you set the camera at 3200, and use tungsten halogen lighting white is white. Use 5600 and use discharge lamps and white is still white. What were you expecting? Something different. White balance just needs to be correct .

Oh when I say better temperatures, I just noticed that skin tones look better to me in a tungsten temperature rather than fluorescent or daylight, but that is just my opinion based on how the skin tones look in my camera. And I am talking about if the camera is white balanced. If I white balance to a 3200 light, the skin looks less pink then if I went balance to a 5600 light. So the skin looks better at a lower temperature white balance it seems. But I can just gel my lights to whatever the location has then, if that's better. Less gel and time like you said.

However, let's say I am shooting a large office space, and I want to separate the skin tones from the back ground, lighting wise. Wouldn't I want to use a different color temperature light on the actors, compared to the lights in the location because then the lights on ceiling, in the background would be a different temperature, and thus separating the skin tones more?

If I match all the light, then there would be no color separation for the skin tones, would there be?

You can fool your camera to give the white balance that gives the best skin tones. There are white balance cards that give a warmer or cooler white balance, I know plenty of camera people who use a 1/8 or 1/4 CTB lighting gel in front of the camera lens to give a warmer look in the skin tone when doing a white balance with a card..

Some cameras allow you to do this inside the menu when manually setting the white balance.

To separate the faces more, just light them a bit brighter than the background,

I'm not sure what you're up with different colour temperatures on the faces. However, you can do this with lighting, it's how they did it before they started playing around with everything in post.

Oh it's just I wanted a more teal and orange look for this project, where the skin tones are warm, but the background is a cool color. So I thought if the lights on the faces were a warmer color, but the lights on the ceiling in the background were a more cool color, than that would help get that type of contrast if that makes more sense?

Oh it's just I wanted a more teal and orange look for this project, where the skin tones are warm, but the background is a cool color. So I thought if the lights on the faces were a warmer color, but the lights on the ceiling in the background were a more cool color, than that would help get that type of contrast if that makes more sense?
The traditional way is gel the lights with the temperature you want. In a small space it's relatively easy to control the light and its temp to your preference, but often there are locations that a powerful light source is a given temperature that you can't change. For example, a room with windows, florescent lights you can't shut off, or outdoors. In these situations your lights will need to match the existing source.

In portrait photography and in video interviews, a common practice is to warm up the the person's skin tone a little bit to achieve a more flattering look.

Oh okay, but why does the light have to match the exiting source, when I am trying to create a color contrast between the skin tones and the background? If I cannot change the temperature of those powerful lights, then wouldn't it make more sense to light the skin with a much warmer light in order to create that color contrast between skin tones and background?

The teal and orange look is a bit of a cliche, it's been around for years.

The colour on the face doesn't have to match the background.

Well even though the look is kind of cliche, I think it can look good with the right amount of tweaking in the color grading. I don't the typical teal and orange lut we are use to seeing, but a more modified version I am trying to create.

So you think that all the light should be white balanced in a scene then and should all match white, and then just grade later with no lights being different color while shooting, is that right?

Also I tried separating the skin tones again in Da Vinci, and maybe the noise is not as bad perhaps.

I tried it on some test footage. Here is the original clip without the skin tone separated from the other color:

Training video draft - YouTube

And here is a test sample with the skin tone separated. Is the noise that bad?

skin tone qualifier test - YouTube

The skin stuff looks flat and boring.

Oh okay, but I haven't done any other grading yet. The only thing I did was separate the skin from the ungraded original. When I adjust the curves and add some more grading it will look less flat won't it?

If that's what you want, but it would look more interesting in black and white.

oh black and white? It was in color before, no?

So the blue clothes are now green, and you're trying to get the faces right?

I'm a bit surprised you're still trying to polish the turd on this one? This video surely has absolutely no need of a grade at all does it? The red short and the green short and blue walls are what there really was, and now we've got colour shifts making the wall that weird blue colour?

Or was it the other way around? This isn't really colour grading is it? It's and effect and colour replacement. I know I'm rubbish at grading, but it's never occurred to me that you'd use it instead of repainting a room. No wonder you're looking for unusual colour balance settings.

Probably best I do keep out of this one because it makes no sense at all to me what you are doing?

Oh well I wasn't planning on coloring the actual video this way, I just took the one shot as a test to try to get better at grading and separating skin tones. I also tested on other footage, but I got the same thing, where the footage looks somewhat noisier after.

However, if for my next project I actually want blue walls, but cannot paint the walls, can I at least light them so they are darker, in order to separate the skin tones better in post, and the color them blue in post?

I know it was said to separate the skin tones while shooting only, but other colorists in their tutorials are separating them in post, so it is something that can be done therefore, isn't it?

The only thing that video sample proves is how little color grading matters if all the other things aren't done right (direction, lighting, costume, location, acting, camera work, etc). Color grading is the final step, the icing on the cake so to speak. It enhances a good movie but can't rescue a poor one.

The colourists are doing more work than you are Ryan with their scenes. Your test would be unusable in a film because you'd need to keep the clothing consistent throughout the film.

Sometimes you have to give up on something because you don't have the resources to do it and a poor quality job will distract from more important aspects of the film.

I don't know why you're going over this stuff again, since it was gone over and over again in another thread,

Oh it's just in the other thread, certain variables were not mentioned that I wanted to go over, such as the how I was recently told that a camera with a better codec was better for separating skin tones, which is what I was asking about in the OP.

However, if the change in codec does not make that much of a difference, than I could try to make the background blue or teal while shooting. But if I do that and I am not allowed to paint the walls, then should I just light the walls blue, while keeping the skin tones separate?

I think I finally understand the confusion. Think for a moment what you are doing. You have taken the skin tone thing out of context. You want to change the colour of certain parts of the indivudal frames - a photoshop style process. We're not talking about subtle changes to colour balance and toning - we're talking about image processing, and pretty severe processing at that! You want to preserve the skin colour. That means big changes to make the heavy adjustment you have made go back. The amount of colour information in the data stream is already limited in the digitisation process - we get the best detail in the luminence and the colour is just at a sufficient level. Tweak too much and you lose the differences in colour, and putting them back creates colour noise. The 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 difference just allows more scope.Better colour quality, if you like.

Maybe an analogy would be to use audio. You put is a radical and crazy eq with a 32 band eq. You then feed that to another 32 band eq and try to recreate the original with the same cut and boost the other way. You'd get something similar, but noisy and far less 'quality'. This is what you are having trouble with the experiment. 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 do the mangling differently - but what you are doing is just wrong, compromised, pointless or just plain daft!

If you go to somebodies venue you CANNOT even consider starting to repaint the walls. You can't think about changing it electronically. You just light it so their skin tones and clothes look as good as you can. If clothes are important, then that is the costume department. If the walls are that critical, then your budget will allow repaining, and then probably restoration. If you don't have the money - choose a different location, or put up with it. You don't tell the client you can change the colour in post, because you can't do it properly.

Lots of people who need chroma keying see the differences in 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 in the sharpness of areas of changing colour - where the green becomes not green. That does make a difference to the keying. A small one perhaps, but measureable. You are just doing silly things.

Light the scene properly, or accept what you get. I don't think you should treat colour as something you can replace in post.

Oh okay thanks. But when watching tutorials on color grading, they are actually able to change the color in post though. In this tutorial:

The Summer Blockbuster Colour Grading Tutorial - YouTube

The background is actually grey on the walls in the real location and they changed the color to a teal look. So what you are saying that the background cannot be changed in post, they actually did it though. He separated the skin tones, and changes the background walls from grey to teal at around 11:20 into the clip. So if it can't be done in post, than how does he do it?

At 1:20 into the video, he also shows a scene from Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol. The original shot of the woman walking down the street, the streets are grey and her coat is grey. Then it shows how it was graded to teal in post. So not even a multi-million dollar movie like Ghost Protocol, could afford to make the streets and clothes teal. The person in the video says notice how the neutral colors have changed to teal in post production. So even a movie like that was forced to use neutral colors instead of teal it seems.

You're going to have do that with the entire film. Care has to be taken with costume selection and to a certain extent you need to light as if you're shooting in black and white, since you no longer have a full range of colours (basically two)..

That means you need to use the lighting to create separation, so flat lighting. as in your two martial arts guys is best avoided. because the scene can look "dead" extremely quickly because the textures etc are being lost.

I can see little point in you to keep on asking here about the process, you've got a video that explains the use of nodes etc to get neutral whites. It's a matter of you understanding the processes in Resolve and testing them out. The last time I looked, the program has a 1200 page manual, plus there are books on digital colour correction, which goes into more detail than is possible in a forum.