I decide to post this picture here, to give an comparison here. It is an private photograph, all copyright applied.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachment.php?attachmentid=3079&d=1178597753

This is from an old camera I tested a few years ago fro the digital cinema camera projects, with up to 20 stops of latitude. It was taken from my place, the blurriness is an quirk on the shot. The exposure is similar in appreciation to exposures you get in Hollywood cinema. It was close to noon on an extremely bright summers day, around an 1000KM from the equator (stacks brighter than what you are normally used to in Europe/States). The leaves on the cane, to the side, normally have large broad burnout on an consumer camera, and are quiet glary/white reflections to the eye, but are well exposed here, while maintaining an lot of features in the shadow under the mango tree (turn up the brightness ion your monitor to see).

This is taken using an latitude extension feature sadly neglected in Cinema cameras we are sued to around here. The old camera, is an maybe $69 credit card camera, with fixed set lens. It uses one of the cheapest sensors (in dollars) and one of the worse I have seen on some measurements of the earlier age of sensors, with SN of 30db from memory and plenty of image artifacts at times, but 20stops of latitude when it wants to. It is an shame not more expensive Cinema camera manufactures could at least take advantage of cheap technology like latitude extension, even when the senor had it. Puts the prices in the Digital Cinema realm into an bit of perspective.

Interestingly, one of the sensors has 70MB/s data rate, but I do not recommend this sensor (except as an improvement to the Sanyo HD cameras ; ). Micron had an extra wide VGA part with an latitude extension technology, so hopefully they will do HD ones without no or fast rolling shutter, and some more descent SN ratio, QE, and fill factor. But you can see how some of the other security related sensors, with better features than this, can be an improvement over the image of the Micron.


Thanks

Wayne.

good to see this ...I think that if we want to enter the market we have to arrive at a very low price max 2/3000$ for all the system so looking at expansive component is a mistake (we have to achieve the best compromise) using cheap component....for the high quality the market is of arri, sony, panavision, panasonic...dalsa, red and silicon imaging not us at the moment! we haven't the money of those factory.
And the good is that if we arrive at a quality that is comparable we will be the winner :-)

I have been working on getting elphel and a pc in a single package. I finished my first version today.

Here is the 3D model where I brainstormed the idea.
http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/model.jpg

after building it:
http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/badIdea.JPG

This is just testing the concept. I picked acrylic because its cheap, available, and often used to build pc cases but I may change the build to all metal. Second, my rods are only 10mm and the next version will be 15mm to make it more stable.

I wish I could make it smaller but standard ATX motherboard size is 12"x9". I'm not too concerned about the size. Judging from what I have seen, film cameras and professional production cameras are big and bigger and that's never held anyone back.

I would appreciate any critique

Cool but...
why do you want to to make all in a single package....it will be very heavy
and the tripod suffer for that!
why not make it the lighter possible and connect the pc with the ethernet cable ----and put a small pc or a notebook with a 7200hd on the floor? pan and tilt will be smoother and you haven't to pay a lot for a good tripod!

I say that because I've realised that for film project you could achieve better result investing money in all but the camera! good light and steady tripod with a cheap camera can make better result than a very good camera and low quality tripod!
olso , I've upgraded the tripod myself! I've take a good one used on ebay but if you need one I've seen this
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/398543-REG/Giottos_BL1150_BL1150_Aluminum_Video_Tripod.html
you could find it also cheaper on ebay new! :-)

if you would achieve better result take one of these
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7626154683&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX&refitem=120116413908&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget

I've found one at 9$ and it work perfectly

Cool but...
why do you want to to make all in a single package....it will be very heavy
and the tripod suffer for that!
why not make it the lighter possible and connect the pc with the ethernet cable ----and put a small pc or a notebook with a 7200hd on the floor? pan and tilt will be smoother and you haven't to pay a lot for a good tripod!

I say that because I've realised that for film project you could achieve better result investing money in all but the camera! good light and steady tripod with a cheap camera can make better result than a very good camera and low quality tripod!
olso , I've upgraded the tripod myself! I've take a good one used on ebay but if you need one I've seen this
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/398543-REG/Giottos_BL1150_BL1150_Aluminum_Video_Tripod.html
you could find it also cheaper on ebay new! :-)

The reason im interested in the elphel cameras is getting a great picture for a small fraction of the price of a camera of the same class. If I was going to go out to buy a laptop to work with the camera, it would cost me a little over $1,000 which is just moving the cost of the entire system up considerably.

After doing a few film shoots already with the 333, it has been a little inconvenient shooting with LCD/desktop/tripod+camera. Moving it was difficult, and pulling focus on the 333 and especially the 35mm adapter was especially difficult because the monitor is not on the camera but on the floor or stationary stand. I had to lock down most of the shots. Also cable management was a bit of an issue too. The monitor is difficult to view outdoors too which makes it hard to frame and focus. A laptop would not be the solution for many of the above issues.

The ideal setup for me would be to have everything in a single package, and eliminate the need for a keyboard/mouse (although have a set avaliable). I plan to use a nostromo N50 for input with a set of macros to adjust camera settings and characters for "s" for scene, 0-9, and "t" for take. "S10-T2.ogm"

The tripod I was using is not going to work for a larger camera. I plan to buy something more stable as soon as i have the chance.

yes but you could make it possible buying a 7"lcd 800x480 tuch screen and mount it directly on the camera like the setup used by the silicon imaging to make the film Spoon
2 cable: one ethernet for the camera and one eternet + vga converter (vga extender) for the lcd it result in a very compact head camera
....I haven't understand what is "S10-T2.ogm"
many thanks

Anybody coming to LinuxTag? We hope to have something to show there - USB and IDE seem to work already (although with a new Axis distro that supports them that is not yet combined with the all of our changes needed for the camera itself). The 10349 board we'll have includes serial port, USB hub (1 external USB host connector and 3 internal ports for future internal audio), and IDE port. We tried laptop 2.5" drive but had to add power so we are going to put a zif-40 connector for 1.8" drives - like "TOSHIBA MK6008GAH 60GB 4200 RPM 2MB Cache ATA-6 Notebook Hard Drive" (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822149046)

so it will be only a question of power for the choose of an hd?!?
it will also possible to connect a 3.5" hd? ...if we provide the right power?
It would be cool because it will be possible to save a lot of money (7200 for 3.5" are a standard ...and also much faster WD-raptor :-) ) maybe we could record 100%jpeg stream :-)

for linuxtag... I can't :-( thought was possible but not

I've tried ubuntu 7.04 ....very cool and fast! also the live is faster than the knoppix :-) ...I m replying from it!
and it recognize all my hardware ...the knoppix do not recognize ethernet for my hw :-(

Yes - it will be possible to connect the 3.5"HDD - I just think it is better to add additional buffers so when applying different powers and screw up the CPU/main board will not be damaged. This is why we prefer to start with a small drive completely powered with the internal voltage - it is better to use 1.8" as it uses 3.3V - not 5.0V as 2.5" so no converter is needed.

The new fastest laptop drive:
Travelstar 200GB 7K200
http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/10/hitachis-2-5-inch-travelstar-7k200-200gb-7-200-rpm-bulk-encr/
http://www.hitachigst.com/portal/site/en/menuitem.9958814a08a37d75797ecae2eac4f0a0/
http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=Travelstar+200GB+7K200&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

The one we used (with additional 5V converter) is 7K100 :-)

Andrey - do you have a HDD upnrunning inside the camera now??
Any idea of performance yet??

just very curious :)

//O.

So far we tried 2.5"HDD attached to 10349 board with additional 48V->5V DC-DC converter. And were able to access the files.

Our current camera software is based on Axis SDK 2.01 and (as we had to find out) it does not work with either IDE or USB. Since then Axis finally released 2.10 (we could not wait that long) that we made to just boot in the camera and Spectr could access USB and HDD, but he did not yet merge our additions to 2.01 and later Axis 2.10 so we do not have yet camera with HDD. But we will have it at LinuxTag for sure.

Andrey, how you can answer today on this question:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=469787&postcount=104 ?

I've been on vacation for a few weeks. But I took the Elphel with me and built a laptop mount on the Tripod. It really makes everything a lot easier. I now use a very fast laptop.
I'll post some pics of the tripod and the laptop.
I also shot a short docu just to test the Elphel for outdoor use. When I have finished editing I'll post the film.

I use the 333 all the time out side, It likes the sun & blue sky! I also use a fast laptop with a 2.5" 7600rpm drive (the Hitachi one I think). Recently been using it with a Sony Vaio FE31 using the original HD & it seems good upto about 70% in most conditions.

Andrey, how you can answer today on this question:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=469787&postcount=104 ?

Serge, no - I can not yet. We do not have yet any performance data on the camera+hdd - we don't even have yet the firmware that can run both (see my previous post).

hi phil did you use the live knoppix or did you have installed on your hd!?

hi oscar thanks for your next upload :-)

hi phil did you use the live knoppix or did you have installed on your hd!?

hi oscar thanks for your next upload :-)

Its best I think to use the live CD. This way the internal HD of the laptop is totally dedicated to video capture. It does take a while to boot up though. But once its loaded into memory it seems fast performance wise.

Does anyone know a place to upload the avi file? It's 50 MB big.

Here is a small version of the 'documentary' I made in France. While my girlfriend was working all day in the garden making a path.... I was testing all aspects of the Elphel. Yes, between some shots I helped her a bit, but filmmaking comes first, right?

This short film also proves you can synch a separate audio recording, using the old method with a clap board (in this case I just clapped my hands and said the take number, the same as the Elphel output filename)
I used a portable minidisc recorder and it really worked fine.
I also used the wax adapter (which really needs to be rebuild to get rid of soft edges), and a 'big' Panasonic TV lens (notice some telephoto close ups of the flowers).

The clip is reduced by half in resolution to upload, and is just a rough cut without color adjustments and some faults in the editing. I'll probably upload the final version at normal resolution of 1600x900 pixels and less compression.
I'll post some stills at full size soon.

You can download the (54MB) file here: http://dvinfo.it-now.org/RomainSurMeuse2.avi (it's in Xvid compression)

...but he did not yet merge our additions to 2.01 and later Axis 2.10 so we do not have yet camera with HDD. But we will have it at LinuxTag for sure.

Great news!
Too bad I can't go to LinuxTag...have other commitments...

Any idea how long time it will be until you have a casing that can hold the hdd?
..in other words - when can I buy one? :)

//O.

Any idea how long time it will be until you have a casing that can hold the hdd?
..in other words - when can I buy one? :)//O.

No, we did not work on that. But I don't think it should be a problem for dvinfo community (after having seen those nice photos of DIY cameras).

No, we did not work on that. But I don't think it should be a problem for dvinfo community (after having seen those nice photos of DIY cameras).

Oh I was just curious...

The only part I would hesitate to build myself would be the c-mount.
If I can buy the 353 in its original casing with hdd support I see no problem in customizing that :)

Please let us know when you can capture images to the hdd!

//O.

Here is a small version of the 'documentary' I made in France. While my girlfriend was working all day in the garden making a path.... I was testing all aspects of the Elphel. Yes, between some shots I helped her a bit, but filmmaking comes first, right?

This short film also proves you can synch a separate audio recording, using the old method with a clap board (in this case I just clapped my hands and said the take number, the same as the Elphel output filename)
I used a portable minidisc recorder and it really worked fine.
I also used the wax adapter (which really needs to be rebuild to get rid of soft edges), and a 'big' Panasonic TV lens (notice some telephoto close ups of the flowers).

The clip is reduced by half in resolution to upload, and is just a rough cut without color adjustments and some faults in the editing. I'll probably upload the final version at normal resolution of 1600x900 pixels and less compression.
I'll post some stills at full size soon.

You can download the (54MB) file here: http://dvinfo.it-now.org/RomainSurMeuse2.avi (it's in Xvid compression)

That was really nice! Looks nothing like anything Ive seen on HDV thats for sure! Had a real rustic feel.

good job man I think that this is a very good presentation of the power of this project! :-)
well done

Real cool work Oscar! I look forward to the hi-res one...

Can't wait until the 353 works without a laptop :)

//O.

Thanks, I'll upload the 1600x900 version this week.
It's not so bad to use a laptop. The only thing that slows things down is the software, but then again, only for setting things up. When you're ready to shoot, you can just start and stop recording. Better software could use a function to auto-name the takes of course. That would again speed thing up.
Besides that, you'll always need to shoot from a tripod when you have a camera with a rolling shutter, and the laptop mount I made on the tripod makes it very easy to use. Everything you need is on the tripod.

Here is a picture of the current setup. (I'll make some detailed pictures soon)
http://community.elphel.com/pictures/Elphel35mmTripod.jpg

thanks for the image oscar
I've seen that you use a dell inspiron 6400 I think
did you use 7200 rpm hdd!? nvidia or ati video card!?
have you got any trouble with the knoppix live cd?
many thanks
Matteo

Hello!

Unfortunately I cannot wait more for the 353. I have a documentary project to start in June so neither I can wait for more nor I'll have the summer to spend on camera development. It's a pity because renting a camera for long term certainly costs more and it won't produce the quality I expected from the would-be-lossless Elphel. I really wanted it, I had projects to do with it but we just run out of time. Good luck for the rest of you - I might look in sometimes and see how things are going.

Bye,
Zsolt

PS: If somebody's interested, here's the BloodSimple(TM) codec I wrote and experimented with. It creates a bitstream directly from the bayer input, always taking the difference of pixels as input. It works best if we use the algorithm in interframe mode, which means that we calculate the difference of pixels from the same coordinate of the previous frame. This of course needs that whole frame in memory.

An output sample always begins with a one bit flag (F) which tells the decoder if the following sample has the same bit length (F=0) as the previous one (a length of P) or it is greater with G bits (F=1). This G constant can be set according to the input stream and it will tell the contrast ratio of the generated images: with a T bit input, following pixels usually don't have more difference than T/2 bits. Visually lossless is around T/3 but it can be calculated explicitly in a pre-encoding step if needed. (By having the motion blur of the 1/24sec exposure, the blur caused by fast pans won't cause quality loss in the encoder as it would do with shorter exposure times.) If F=0, the decoder uses the previous P bit length but if the sample's most significant L bits are zero then the next sample will be taken with P-L bits (if that sample's F=0). The encoder knows this and if the next sample's length is greater than P-L then it sets F=1. L is usually set to T/4.

With sample videos (no real bayer input, only some grayscale mjpeg stuff with some artifical noise added) it has produced a 2:1 average ratio which means 2.5:1 with low freq content and 1.5:1 with high freq content (ie. trees with leaves with the sky as background). Because the code is so simple one can use several module instances in an fpga, for example, one for each pixel in a 20x20 block (or whatever the Elphel uses), working in paralell with only the memory bandwith setting the performance limits. However, with a smaller no. of instances it may fit beside the theora module; altough two output streams aren't supported yet. And it's really easy to implement it in verilog which can be a concern if somebody's not an expert like Andrey...

Hello!
Unfortunately I cannot wait more for the 353. I have a documentary project to start in June...

Hi Zsolt,

Have you tried just calling Andrey?

Last thing we heard he was supposed to have a 353 with hdd support up and running on linuxtag. (30th of may - 2nd of june) In other words..in just a few days!

..so how about calling him and just ask to see if you can buy or borrow (he has generously offered access to cameras if you develop in the past) a pre production model for developing the codec? Worst thing that could happen is that he says no ;)

Oh I just thought I would ask.

If you really feel there is not time - then good luck with the documentary!! ..and we hope to see you drop by here in the future :)

good luck

//O.

Yes, it is coming closer and we should have some interesting hardware at LinuxTag in a few days. And we are already shipping 353 cameras (in basic configuration - just 10353+10338 boards).

hi andrey
can you tell me how long is the 30-pin flex cable connector (J1) that connect the camera to the sensor board!?
is it possible to buy and use a custom one or come soldered ?
I'm looking for design a camera case in "reverse mode" to reduce space so the sensor will be positioned on the back of the case and not in front.

many thanks

hi andrey
can you tell me how long is the 30-pin flex cable connector (J1) that connect the camera to the sensor board!?
is it possible to buy and use a custom one or come soldered ?
I'm looking for design a camera case in "reverse mode" to reduce space so the sensor will be positioned on the back of the case and not in front.
many thanks

Normally we use 1" and 2" cables, with previous models I tried up to 12" one. THe 353 has a flexible clock phase adjustment, so it is possible to adjust it to match data on longer cables if you'll have any problems.

Up to 8" are in stock at Digi-Key, longer need special order, I believe.

Zolt, consider this fro your documentary in the case for the Elphel:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=94079

It will probably cost similar to the Elphel to setup, plus the adaptor/mounts, computer case etc, could be shared with the Elphel. So, basically you land up paying for thread cost of the Intensity card, cable, and the Canon HV20 over the Elphel (unless you want to use the cineform codec). The Canon produces a somewhat silky image, and offers uncompressed/low compressed 8 bit at least.

I might have posted this before:

http://dailytech.com/Major+Lowlight+Digital+Photography+Breakthrough+Inbound+from+Korea/article7401.htm

Yes, it is coming closer and we should have some interesting hardware at LinuxTag in a few days. And we are already shipping 353 cameras (in basic configuration - just 10353+10338 boards).

Hi, I was long time in the background. But the opportunity is favorable now to see the camera. I will be on Saturday at LinuxTag and if the basic parts works well, than I try to get it. In my application as "sports-cam" are just 353+338 boards, one CF Card and accu required. The necessary modifications/adaptions wants I to make (with an additional print). The next step is, to design a small case in Inventor-3D. So if you wonder whether I am crazy, because fast motion an rolling shutter doesn't match? Right, I solve it by lower resulution but with higher framerate. Which is possible, we will see in Berlin.
Robert

So, blood simple is an simple inter 2 frame codec, no fancy stuff. This is basically the same as what Juan was working on, good effort. You could still work on it, and use the Elphel for another project. How far advanced is Blood Simple software code and fpga, this could be used for ant bayer camera around here as well?

Here are a few more sensors worth considering:

http://www.altasens.com/AltaSensBitsDReamPressRelease.pdf

http://www.altasens.com/ap7.html
http://www.altasens.com/ap5.html
http://www.altasens.com/ap2.html

http://www.altasens.com/Products%208M.htm

The 3372 and 5262 loom interesting for 1/3inch sensors using the new technology. Pity they don't have 1/2inch, 2/3rd inch, or 4/3rd versions yet.

Zolt, on looking at your post again, I think I have been an bit confused. Were you offering up your project for somebody else to take it over?

Were you offering up your project for somebody else to take it over?

That's right. I'm afraid there are no verilog programmers here but somebody might pick it up. As for other bayer cameras, I'm not aware of any other which could be freely programmed like the Elphel. And the compression rate is pretty low (just enough for the Elphel, hopefully), perhaps it might be combined with some other algorithm to get better results.

Zsolt

I've uploaded a full resolution version of the 'demo-documentary' I shot with the Elphel 333, the wax 35mm adapter and TV-lens. This short film will probably also be shown at LinuxTAG.
It's compressed with Xvid, but very acceptable to show. (200MB)

http://community.elphel.com/videos/RomainFULL.avi

Hi Oscar,

Thanks for sharing the hi-res version!!

A few questions:

1. How much of a problem do you get with the rolling shutter?

2. Is the footage direct from the camera or did you make any colour adjustments?

3. Is there any way to compress the video stream less...or the ethernet is the bottleneck here?

I really like your short documentary :) Good work!

thanks

//O.

Hi Oscar,

Thanks for sharing the hi-res version!!

A few questions:

1. How much of a problem do you get with the rolling shutter?

2. Is the footage direct from the camera or did you make any colour adjustments?

3. Is there any way to compress the video stream less...or the ethernet is the bottleneck here?

I really like your short documentary :) Good work!

thanks

//O.

Think it was really nice to see it used this way! the DOF was great. I did notice a few moments of dropped frames which is the main issue I think with the camera just now filming with Mjpeg at above say 70%. I think with the Ogg Mpeg4 encoder this problem should go as they can adjust the compression so the bit rate is fixed like with a normal camera. A fast HD can help this but the bottle neck can also be in the camera I think if the scene becomes very complex.

Thanks Odd and Phil.


1. How much of a problem do you get with the rolling shutter?
2. Is the footage direct from the camera or did you make any colour adjustments?
3. Is there any way to compress the video stream less...or the ethernet is the bottleneck here?
//O.


1. There is one shot with really noticeable rolling shutter. It's the telephoto shot of a basket with snail-shells. I used it because I liked the image, but a rolling shutter and such a big telephoto lens doesn't really work.
What also doesn't work is shooting hand held. Also a bump on the tripod gives a strange 'wobble' effect. Even a small bump, so you have to use a very good tripod with very smooth movements.

2. Almost all the footage is without color correction. I did use a little level correction, box blur (to get rid of the OGG compression block pattern)

3. Note that this is a Xvid compressed file. The original is better, but there is always some compression. I use 80 or 85 % quality on the camera. Higher percentages give frame drops.
Maybe the file doesn't play smooth on Phil's computer, because I don't think I have frame drops. I'd notice it on the audio-synch.

I have been able to record smooth 90% quality but it also depends on what resolution your shooting at. I prefer to use 2000x800 because I think that gives me the best results. At 90% quality there is a delay in the streaming video when recording at the same time, so I usually use 85.

some screen caps below from previous 333 test projects.
http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/1.png
http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/vlcsnap-1519185.jpg
http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/vlcsnap-1519992.jpg
http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/paint.jpg

That's right. I'm afraid there are no verilog programmers here but somebody might pick it up. As for other bayer cameras, I'm not aware of any other which could be freely programmed like the Elphel. And the compression rate is pretty low (just enough for the Elphel, hopefully), perhaps it might be combined with some other algorithm to get better results.

Zsolt

I have let people know on my technical thread. Incidentally, I noticed that this thread is now bigger than my technical thread where I host discussions on technology issues, and announcements, since back in the original Digital Cinema threads, so congratulations, you have come an long way, with lots of new people.

http://www.planet82.com/english/product/smpd_02.asp

"..So, blood simple is an simple inter 2 frame codec, no fancy stuff. This is basically the same as what Juan was working on, good effort..."

If that Juan is me, the thing I was just "testing" was basically some kind of lossless/lossy block based "DCT like" compression scheme using just integers and bit shifts.The nice thing about it is that even in lossy mode any visible block would be busted after a decent demosaicing.
I was thinking that if Elphel can compress Theora on the fly, this RAW Bayer compression should be a piece of cake.The 2 frame differencial was an option in case lower bitrate was required, but I still think that would be a last option because there are still a couple of tricks left before going that route.Anyway Andrey never showed much interest.
Maybe the Etrax mic can't deal with a higher bandwidth than the used for the theora stream.

The limitations of the device in the Elphel has been discussed here previously. I would like to suggest, as I think I remember you had experience with programmable hardware, that you might like to do this project? I had been trying to get Andrey involved even earlier, but there was two things, the Elphel 333 and earlier models were not that good for the purpose, and Andrey had an lot on trying to earn an living out of security sales to spend time on this. When you look at it, apart from better security streams, what we have tried to do would also allow for better machine-vision sales.