If you have Bayer RAW from cmos image sensor in this case possible to do 3 picture with different settings to construct HDR ?

If you have RAW bayer from the cmos, you already have the best possible image quality you can get with the camera. Anything else is just playing around with the image to make it look like it has more info than it actually has. It's like trying to get a HDR image from a single photo. You cannot get three different images at the same time with one cmos.

Just a question... Is any of the lenses coming with the Elphel sharp enough for 2K resolution? Which one's the best?

If not, where can I find good (and not too expensive) very sharp C or CS mount lenses?

Thanks.

I didn't order a lens with the camera, but I think they are not sharp enough for our purpose. I have a standard 'security' c-mount lens (50$ or something) and it is unusable in any way. I hoped to convert it to a macro lens for the 35mm adapter, but it has color and optical aberration.

I did find a c-mount lens on an old 16mm (consumer)film camera and it is very sharp. But the field of view is much smaller because the sensor isn't 16mm.
http://community.elphel.com/pictures/E1.jpg(low light, 80% Mjpeg quality, 333 model)

I also bought a Panasonic TV camera zoom lens (which is almost 2x bigger than the Elphel itself) and it gives a perfect image.
http://community.elphel.com/pictures/tree.jpg (80% Mjpeg quality, 333 model)

Mmm... Not bad, but compression is VERY noticeable! I don't know... When I ordered the Micron demo board it came with a standard c-mount lens but it was quite sharp using full HD or 2K resolution. Even sharper than the examples you posted. At least that's what it looked like. Again, maybe it's the compression.

Anyway, I need to find some online store to buy sharp C-Mount lenses. Even if they're built for scientific purposes, I don't really care. I mean, I'll still use a 35mm adaptor so I just need a tack sharp focus on the ground glass.

Can you post some of your stills from the Micron demo board?

Here it is. Debayered and encoded using Lossless JPEG, captured and saved to PNG.

I'll probably be ordering the Elphel by next week, but I still have some questions, because with the Micron demo board I had bandwidth problems but I knew the clips were uncompressed and had a great quality. I'm not too sure about the Elphel because everything I've seen so far looks quite compressed and blurrier than the other option. My questions would be:

- Is OGG Theora better than MJPEG? Is it already available with the Elphel?
- I know Cineform codec would be great to get the best out of the Elphel but I also know it'd be expensive. Are there any plans to use lossless JPEG instead of the other two codecs with this camera?
- Does the ethernet interface offer enough bandwidth to shoot 2048x858 pixels at 24fps setting MJPEG codec to let's say 95%?

hi to all any news on the elphel side!?
-Oscar have you tested the 353 with the 35 mm adapter!?

I have only tested the 353 with the knoppix live cd that came with the 333 model. I didn't wright about it, because it doesn't have advantages over the older model with this software. You can't set the resolution higher than before (even less somehow)
I started using the (k)ubuntu distribution, but didn't get any results yet, because it's in an early stage. I expect an update soon.
I'm also waiting for the hard-drive and the board that allows you to record directly to the hard-drive . That will be a big leap forward.

Definitely! Harddrive is the main thing I'm waiting for. I've been looking at all sorts of solutions sub $2000...and I just cannot bring myself to buy a prosumer solution. (and I know I'm not alone)

With elphel I can record pretty much any frame size I want...and with any user interface I want...its just the fact that currently it needs a laptop...

..once that is solved - especially if the raw -> separate jpg solution will be in there - whoah - please! :) I'll get a 353! :)

How about this sensor?
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/vol47/pdf/imx017cqe.pdf

look at that for 85$ you can get
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5563564014.html
http://www.norhtec.com/products/mcjr/index.html

....we can install a small distro linux os with firefox attach a 7" lcd
and connect ethernet to the elphel 353 with a 2,5"hd or ?cf module storage?

I'm dreaming or we can get a hd camera for less than 1500$ wihtout pc!?

You can also try :
http://www.gumstix.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=178

well if you can live with a small pc connected to a camera, materials have been here for years (as we statued already quite a few times in the New DIY HD Camera thread)

I just got a new 7" touch screen LCD, and a 400gb fast hdd. The touch screen is nice but really wont ever be used for input with the camera.

The new camera specs is a quad core q6600, asus p5k, 2gb ddr2 1066 ram, 400gb hdd, and a geforce 7900.

The new version of my camera will be done by this time next week in time for my film shoot.

I just wish I could get my hands on a 353

I know it but for that price is the first time
and I think to near future when the storage module of the 353
is working

From what I can gather the 353 will be a box camera with an IDE, sata, or some sort of HDD interface.

Im interested to see how the 353 will be setup and configured. If the 353 can write directly to a hdd thats great but how to you set settings? Set exposure, white balance, ect? How would you see what your shooting to focus and frame? You would still need a computer of some sort of at least 2-3 ghz.

Unless elphel comes out with a display and interface or at least some sort of video output other then a rj45 stream but I have not seen anything about that. To add to that, an optical viewfinder is a lot more complex then it at first seems.

Its a neat feature but I think the camera is MUCH more powerful connected to a computer. For example, right now im working on some software that will pull a realtime key on the stream.

Well...as you can control this via wifi apparently (by using a wifi dongle on the camera) you could use any kind of device with a browser and wifi.

This means anything from a lot of high-spec phones out there...to other small wifi enabled devices like this one:

http://www.mobiletechreview.com/nokia-770.htm

There is three really cool points with a solution like this.

1. Quick setup
2. Portability (wich means you use it a lot more + use it handheld)
3. You get _much_ less compression on the video as you have _much_ higher bandwidth. (direct to disk)

I dont really care if the preview has a slow framerate and is lo-res...I'll just measure the focus manually and pull it by that. Sound I'll just do with my M-Audio microtrack http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrackII-main.html

cheers :)

Odd, that's about the first next (big) step we should take with the Elphel.
About the audio, I know someone at Elphel was testing sound recording, but that's in early stages I guess. Synchronizing audio from a device like the M-Audio or minidisk works much easier than you'd expect.
When we can begin to experiment with the 353 and HDD (I'll receive the parts and HDD soon I hope) and a small controller like the Nokia, we probably could contact someone from Elphel in Geneva. I haven't spoken to him, but I'll ask him to join this discussion.
Andrey is very busy on a really big project, so it's a bit quiet around here lately, but I hope I get some time myself. I'm working with a new Elphel Ubuntu distribution: http://community.elphel.com/files/Elphel-Software-Kit.iso (It's a live CD for the 353, also from the guys in Geneva)

I hope that the camera comes with HDD to run soon.
I am looking forward to the first results, more so.
Robert

Well...as you can control this via wifi apparently (by using a wifi dongle on the camera) you could use any kind of device with a browser and wifi.

This means anything from a lot of high-spec phones out there...to other small wifi enabled devices like this one:

http://www.mobiletechreview.com/nokia-770.htm

There is three really cool points with a solution like this.

1. Quick setup
2. Portability (wich means you use it a lot more + use it handheld)
3. You get _much_ less compression on the video as you have _much_ higher bandwidth. (direct to disk)

I dont really care if the preview has a slow framerate and is lo-res...I'll just measure the focus manually and pull it by that. Sound I'll just do with my M-Audio microtrack http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrackII-main.html

cheers :)

The problem with that is we are talking about huge resolutions. You still need a lot of computer power to decode and preview the live555 stream. You could get a preview image but horrible realtime. And without realtime you can't frame or focus correctly.

If the elphel cameras could send a seperate smaller signal for a preview on a cell phone it would work. But it would demand even more processing from the camera to send two streams, which is pretty awkward anyway.

I'm working with a new Elphel Ubuntu distribution: http://community.elphel.com/files/Elphel-Software-Kit.iso (It's a live CD for the 353, also from the guys in Geneva)

Keep us updated on that. I finished my Ubuntu Elphel hdd install and it works great except I can't get the input device to function, had some trouble with the touch screen too. Im short on time...

Im using Windows XP instead. Its working surprisingly well, especially since I have all the drivers already. It boots up and ready to record in about 15 seconds.

Mind if i ask why your sticking to a livecd? its slow to load, a cd-rom is noisy, wont save settings, and loading anything can be a pain. Are you going to provide an hdd install?

Oh, me a bit stupid
and my wothless 5 cents ...
I will tell you , not everything has to be via wifi and else.
In the film bizz since more than 25 years, can
tell you a classic viewfinder, out of a crap S16
or russian 36mm camera is the best thing for focus and else.
Even dont think of anything electronic as ist has to have the best resolution, be on axis, working with all lenses and working if the sun has gone !!
A lousy scrap display of a cell phone, can do exposure and all this, as we do not have sexy buttons to press. The rest is HDD and we need 2 to of them be hot swapped.

Im using Windows XP instead. Its working surprisingly well, especially since I have all the drivers already. It boots up and ready to record in about 15 seconds.



wow did you mean you can record the stream using win xp?
is that right!?
how can it be done?

wow did you mean you can record the stream using win xp?
is that right!?
how can it be done?

of course you can :)

set your netmask to 255.255.255.0 and point a browser to 192.168.0.9 to preview/setup

then use mplayer/mencoder to play/record the rtsp stream...

make sure firewalls are off, including XP. they will block the broadcast packets and mplayer will connect but wont display any video.

you can also use VNC but it wont record...

Daniel, that sounds easy, but somehow I didn't get it to work. I'll give it a try again tomorrow. I'm interested in Ubuntu because it's suited to be installed next to XP or Vista (in my case) onto the hard drive. Also, Elphel is planning to use Ubuntu (or Kubuntu) in stead of Knoppix in the future.


In the film bizz since more than 25 years, can
tell you a classic viewfinder, out of a crap S16
or russian 36mm camera is the best thing for focus and else.


Ronald, that's what I figured. I.m.o. there should be a bit more interest in old methods. Read this article from Ron Dexter about framing a shot : http://www.rondexter.com/intermediate/equipment/viewfinder_image_size.htm

Also take a look at more articles on that site: http://www.rondexter.com/

At what point are you having trouble?

Are you able to browse to 192.168.0.9 to set settings? Or are you having trouble playing/recording?

Hi Daniel many thanks for the info
did you encounter some sort of trouble on the rolling shutter side
in your shooting!?
have you discovered some method to reduce it?

Hi Daniel many thanks for the info
did you encounter some sort of trouble on the rolling shutter side
in your shooting!?
have you discovered some method to reduce it?

Yeah its defiantly there, but you have to meet certain conditions for it to be really prominent to the point of distraction. Generally its not bad...
I recall reading that older film cameras had a similar rolling shutter effect... You wanted film look right?

SI-2K shoots with a cmos chip, and they have the same rolling shutter effect. The way they minimize it is by shooting at 2x the fps, 48 for example and drop every other frame. I did some experiments trying to get 48 fps while keeping the maximum resolution. If I remember correctly I think I was able to get 48 at 1500x600 and 85% quality. I have not yet shot tests at 48 so I don't know how well this works, if at all. Its something I plan to do before next weekend.

I really don't want to shoot at anything lower then 2000x800 because using a smaller area on the chip means less DOF, and and all my lenses become zooms.

I spent all day last night editing a film I shot with the 333 about a year ago. Better late then never eh? There was no noticeable rolling shutter effect on any of the footage I ended up using. Of course all the shots were locked off since this is before my first camera platform. I may post a short rough cut up here later.

I used premiere 2. Sound sync went great, I didn't encounter any of the sound problems I thought I would. A clapper is a huge help, also important to actually say what scene, take, and even camera position.

cool, post something when you have done!
so didn't you use the 35mm adapter ....why?
are you disappointed with the result with it!?just curious
what lens are you using now?
and last did you think that is possible to record streaming directly in vista!?

cool, post something when you have done!
so didn't you use the 35mm adapter ....why?
are you disappointed with the result with it!?just curious
what lens are you using now?
and last did you think that is possible to record streaming directly in vista!?

Yeah it should work.
1) get mplayer compiled with live555
2) change your subnet to 255.255.255.0
3) set your ip to something like 192.168.0.10

As long as the broadcast packets are not getting blocked it should work fine.

I am using a 35mm adapter, a letus35. It will be somewhat a permanent part of the new camera. The film I was editing Sunday was shot with the letus35 and it is a bit soft. The camera is defiantly much sharper without the adapter. I think this is because I have every lens wide open to get enough light indoors. But if I have no other choice, i'm willing to sacrifice some quality to get the 35mm DOF.

Here is a sample clip from that film shot last year:
http://www.buysmartpc.com/temp2/phone_final512K_Stream.wmv

I was just the camera operator. This is the first time I used the 333 in an actual production environment, and I really was not ready. Its got its problems. It still needs some sound work, compression especially. And there is no CC. This is unmodified video, so it has a bit of green tint to it.


The real test will be Saturday morning. Everything will be shot hand held. I just got the 7" lcd mounted on the body last night, pretty solid. Im going to mount the camera tonight, and maybe post pics of the setup.

Where can I find it (mplayer + live555)
I haven't the elphel 333 but I want to try before buy it so I think that
with the link in the elphel main page
http://www3.elphel.com/online_cameras
should work
mplayer for win havn't the gui so how can i use it?

Here you go:

mplayer for windows with live555
http://www.buysmartpc.com/temp2/mplayer.zip

Check out wiki.elphel.com for instructions. Its generally Linux but mplayer examples are more or less the same. Make sure you remember to use port 7070 locally, I keep leaving that out.

many thanks and good luck for your next hand held movie!
I've tried to record from win but I think I have to install also apache php ....
and some other... :-)

Hi All + andrey!!

Just curious if there's any news on the harddisk + camera + software?

I'm still holding out buying a camera...as I'd really like the idea of making my own gui to control it...

Any news?? Andrey?

Happy Xmas to all of you who celebrate it...and a happy new year to all of you! :) cheers //O.

Yes, we do have some boards (10349 (http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=10349)) and software that supports HD recording (camogm (http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Camogm)), Daniel is working on a user interface for it.

This was my first experiment with HDD recording ( http://community.elphel.com/videos/canyonlands_coyote_original.mov ) - I was had to hold camera with the tripod trying to film coyote that I noticed in the window. So it is far from professional :-)

I'm finishing now 10369 board (using 10349 as a prototype) and this is currently our top priority. Among other features 10369 accommodates 2 internal CF cards (so up to 32 MB) and has a SATA connector for external HDDs (need separate power supply). It also has USB, RS-232, and opto-isolated sync I/Os to simplify stereo and panoramic ( http://wiki.elphel.com/images/a/ab/354-11_close.jpeg, http://wiki.elphel.com/images/c/cf/354-11-view10353.jpeg ) camera applications.

What lens and aperture did you use on that Andrey?

After a pass of Deshaker:

http://www.archive.org/download/RollingShutterCMOS/cmos.wmv

Just a regular varifocal 1/2" C-mount lens, camera was mounted inside this RV ( http://community.elphel.com/pictures/ElphelRV/ElphelRV_1.jpg ) recording what was visible from the side window, but when I noticed coyote I just grabbed the camera with the tripod and tried to film it.

Hello all,

I wanted to shoot new footage in France last week, but the circumstances (weather etc) made it too difficult to experiment.

I'd like to discuss an idea that came to mind about previewing with the Elphel camera's (or any other CMOS camera).
Besides the fact that it might be possible to get real time preview from the camera (I think Daniel is also looking in to it), one would sometimes prefer a real optical viewfinder.
Especially in bright sunlight or to frame the shot. (here is an interesting article from Ron Dexter:http://www.rondexter.com/intermediate/equipment/viewfinder_image_size.htm
My idea was to take a 8mm film camera (because of the CMOS sensor size) apart and use the viewfinder parts for the Elphel camera.

As I understand, most of the 8mm cameras have a 45 degrees two-way mirror in front of the shutter, which is directed to the viewfinder tube. Am I right about this?

Now, can we put all of that stuff right in front of the sensor, or does it absorb too much light or take in too much space?
It would be great because it wouldn't matter what lens (or 35mm adapter) you use, it'll always show the image from the sensor focal plane.

(I know the image from a super8 camera is small, but I think the article from Ron Dexter is right about framing the shot on a smaller image.)

Yes, we do have some boards (10349 (http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=10349)) and software that supports HD recording...

Wow - loads of progress!!

A few questions:

1. What max sustained datarate would be possible when doing .mov MJPEG to disk?

2. Do you have any 353's available for sale at this stage?

3. Do you have a casing available that can hold a harddrive?


I'm finishing now 10369 board (using 10349 as a prototype)..and has a SATA connector for external HDDs (need separate power supply).


..any idea if the datarate using .mov mjpeg will be the same using SATA?


It also has USB, RS-232, and opto-isolated sync I/Os


Ah! - in theory I could sync a stroboscope using these I/O's right? ..and to sync two cameras would be pretty easy too right?

I read about camogm on the wiki - if I understand it right - I have to set the size/quality etc with the web gui - or similar - then start camogm and tell it to write to disk...Is it possible to stream a lower sized image stream to a web gui while having a larger size written to disk?

Very exciting news...
..if you have the time - please shoot me some feedback!!

thanks

1. What max sustained datarate would be possible when doing .mov MJPEG to disk?
With the IDE drivers as they are I've measured 16MB/s writing. I'm not sure DMA is used correctly - it may be possible to improve it.
[QUOTE=Odd Nydren;800117]
2. Do you have any 353's available for sale at this stage?

Yes, we do.

3. Do you have a casing available that can hold a harddrive?

No, we just hand-modified camera bodies to attach HDs. For 10369 we are working on a camera body in parallel with the PCB design. It will have room inside the standard-size body (same as 333, 353) for 2 CF cards (not hot-swappable), SATA HDD will have to have own power supply and will be connected to the camera through SATA connector on the back of the camera (near USB and network RJ45)



..any idea if the datarate using .mov mjpeg will be the same using SATA?

The same. Curently speed is limited by Axis IDE, not the HDD, so there will be no difference in data rate - just convenience to attach external drives (up to 1m long cable). I hope it will be possible to tweak the IDE driver (DMA in Axis ETRAX is capable of more than that), but I don't think it will be easy to get to much higher data rate.


Ah! - in theory I could sync a stroboscope using these I/O's right? ..and to sync two cameras would be pretty easy too right?

Yes, as well as have stereo HD video.


I read about camogm on the wiki - if I understand it right - I have to set the size/quality etc with the web gui - or similar - then start camogm and tell it to write to disk...Is it possible to stream a lower sized image stream to a web gui while having a larger size written to disk?


All the compression is done in FPGA (CPU is far too slow to have reasonable frame rate) and currently we have only one image size at a time there. What can be done rather easy is to stream video for viewfinder with lower priority, skipping frames. While camogm will record all the data (compressed frames are stored in 19MB circular buffer in the camera system memory), streamer will send frames only if camogm is safe from buffer overrun (i.e. uses less than 1/2 of the buffer).

As for GUI - Daniel is working on a front end for camogm, but not all the driver functionality is ready -- things like autoexposure, white balance are waiting for some overhaul and better integration with PHP.

Happy new year to everybody.

I'm busy making an optical viewfinder on the Elphel 353.
I've taken most of the prisms and tubes etc from a super8 film camera. This, because the cmos sensor is practically the same size.

The idea is to place the two-way mirror prism (inside a square piece of glass) right in front of the sensor on top of the ir-filter.
I have to cut a hole through the side (and the c-mount thread) of the Elphel and put a tube that flips the upside down image. On the end I'll put the other mirror to the eyepiece. Here is a quick drawing I made(top view): http://www.picshome.com/en/download.php?id=0A9CA9231

Originally, the second mirror was placed between the one-way mirror and the tube, but it won't fit the Elphel housing. I hope it'll work in this setup.

I'm also thinking about the 35mm adapter, because you wont need the flip-tube. This means I have to make the tube detachable, so I can put in a different eyepiece... or something..
What do you guys think. Is there an optics expert here?

hi to all and happy new year!
Oscar: cool project but I think that is very difficult to operate this way, too small tolerance and too small part for a diy project
take a look at what I'm planning to do ....with an adapter but a medium format one( the ground glass is big and can be used to preview the scene also)
Andrey:nice to see you back to the thread one question... is it possible with the new 5mp sensor binning 2x and have a true full size 1/2.5" 720p 60fps camera with the software we have?(I've tried the binning option with a link on the wiki maybe from polto or spectr the 353 and , like the camera link you have provided some ago "matteo.elphel.com" nothing happen)
many thanks
Matteo

While on the topic of viewfinders, here is a simple solution for a digital viewfinder for I think any camera really.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Playstation-2-PS2-Controller-Built-in-LCD-Screen-NEW_W0QQitemZ110190867298QQihZ001QQcategoryZ21188QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638 .m118

Tear it apart and remove the 2.5" LCD. Hopefully the LCD controller is not much bigger. Looks like it has an AV connection, and only $18.00.

I doubt this thing would be any good for anything other than framing and going through menu options but hell its cheap.

I would personally rather have an optical viewfinder, but this is just another option.

yes is cheap and with a small cheap spy camera that record ground glass picture can be useful for real time digital viewfinder

You could also just display the RTSP stream real time. This way you see exactly how the camera sees so its possible to see the exposure, white balance, and other data such as audio and histogram.

I used a 7" touch screen with the 333 before with an interface I wrote but I found it to be clumsy. Also, when working outside it helps to shield it from sunlight. But to use the touchscreen its necessary to remove the visor and the glare is back. IMHO there is no replacement for buttons and dials.

On the other hand, here is a picture of the viewfinder from I think SI-2K?
http://www.hdforindies.com/uploaded_images/SiliconDVR_Interface_Main-782743.jpg

Once im done with the 353 front end, I will try implementing a touch screen interface again.

Daniel I also think of using the touchscreen to control the camera
some ago I have made this gui ...have you seen it? http://www.webalice.it/teo.poz/elphel_GUI2/
I've asked andrey the permission of use an elphel 333 from remote ftp to try to write an html page but it was harder than I though (I'm a civil engineer and I do not know software programming so much) maybe now that andrey is changing the elphel control to php is simple
I've seen that you have the skill to program software so if I can help you (on the graphic side) or with some idea... ask me :-)

Matteo, I'm not sure how you want to have the mirror reflect the image from that angle without a perspective distortion, or am I missing something.
I have all the parts ready, and I'm about to drill a hole in the side of the Elphel. It'll be pretty hard to get everything inside a tube and focussed right, but I think it's doable.

Daniel, a touch screen would be nice, but have you considered an usb numeric pad with assigned buttons?

Mateo, we have two civil engineers in our camera team:) The problem in user interface design is not coding, it's design. Usability and best use of the limited screen space.

Daniel, a touch screen would be nice, but have you considered an usb numeric pad with assigned buttons?

Yes, in fact this was my temporary interface: http://www.applelinks.com/reviews/gifs/n50a.jpg

It worked great as a way to interact with the prototype, however it has its limitations. For example it is designed for use with the left hand.

For a while I worked on a simple input device using an AVR atmega128. It interfaces with the pc by a serial cable. It allowed me to add buttons and rotary encoders to control exposure, gamma, and some other settings. I was planning to use a small graphic lcd screen to output status and other data.

It may be even possible to plug such a device directly into the usb ports avaliable on the 353.

But I do not have the time or resources to continue that project.

Daniel I also think of using the touchscreen to control the camera
some ago I have made this gui ...have you seen it? http://www.webalice.it/teo.poz/elphel_GUI2/
I've asked andrey the permission of use an elphel 333 from remote ftp to try to write an html page but it was harder than I though (I'm a civil engineer and I do not know software programming so much) maybe now that andrey is changing the elphel control to php is simple
I've seen that you have the skill to program software so if I can help you (on the graphic side) or with some idea... ask me :-)

I appreciate the offer.

I do remember seeing that picture before, at first glance I don't think it would be very difficult to do. If you would like to try again, you can use the example application I posted a while back. Its crude, but should get you going in the right direction.

The front end I am working on right now is pretty general, and not optimized for our needs. It wont be long before its complete and I will start on the filmmaking version.

Daniel: what did you mean with front end? maybe I have not understand it
for my interface have you tried to press the buttons!? I have developed it with the silicon imaging one in mind and starting with the idea of using a 2 frame html
the upper filled with the elphel camera main interface (so that you have all the control if you want) and the bottom with a flash type vector interface like I've done (with the cinema camera most used controls)...yes it have to be checked(in particular the gain and white balance and black setting) but I think it is useful the idea of choosing a parameter to change and the big single slide that appear :-)

Oscar: I think that the mirror is ok maybe it have to be checked the right angle ...try to put a picture 90° on your bathroom mirror and you'll see what I mean :-)

John: nice to hear that, 2civil engineer in a project like your! cool