Here are three images. Is one of significantly lower quality? Which one?

If you can't see a difference, then 30P has no problem in my prototype V1U.

I like pic # 1 the best!

Pic #3 seems a bit soft.

Steve,

From left to right, #2 looks the sharpest, followed by #1 then #3, with #3 being the softest.

#1 looks clean while I can notice some of the oil paint look in images #2 and #3. In the wood grain image 1 looks more natural while 2 and 3 take on kind of a cartoon look. Actually when I look very close I think all 3 images have this it is just it is at different levels.

On 2 and 3 do any of us think wood grain looks like that? 1 looks a lot more natural to me but there is still something "funny" about it. Look at the far left of all three images at the area around the grey squares. That does not look natural. I have worked with 35mm footage and all types of HDV footage for compositing and I can tell you that these images look funky. How would keying work on something like this when the edges get enhanced? We would have dancing edges.

One last thing I will point out is the chroma sampling in all 3 images. Notice the alternating lines of chroma due to the fact that even progressive is encoded as an interlaced stream. This will also make keying a little bit harder if you are going to a progressive source such as BD, HD-DVD or film. Your NLE will have to know how to compensate for the alternating lines of chroma. Clearly whatever program Steve used to take these stills couldn't yet tell the difference so it thinks they are all interlaced and the chroma looks like that. You really notice it in the reds. If you plan on creating a 1080p HD disk of some type the chroma will need to be sorted in the correct order.

Steve I think you are using FCP. Is there an option to treat the footage as non interlaced or interlaced like there is with Liquid?

The wood grain in the third image seems quite blurry/smudgy...
The second image looks to be perhaps overly sharpened.

But nice clean blacks. Colors seem very nice.

One last thing I will point out is the chroma sampling in all 3 images. Notice the alternating lines of chroma due to the fact that even progressive is encoded as an interlaced stream.

I've forgotton the details of your worry about field encoded MPEG, but all 1080i ATSC has this issue -- and yet I've yet to see any huge protest about this as being a big quality issue. There are many other interlace problems, and this one is just one more. It seems to me that you are simply pointing-out one of the many advantages of progressive.

In the case of Sony 24p, 25p, and 30p -- I don't see that these modes will look any worse than 50i or 60i. And, that really is the only important point to someone buying a V1.

It seems irrelevant to point-out that 720p offers better chroma. It also offers 60p. But, if folks want 720p they obviously aren't going to buy any Sony camcorder. So I'm not sure why you keep pointing this issue on the V1 thread.

FROM: Zsolt Gordos

Hi Steve, certainly these shots look much better than any of the V1E shots and none of them show the "oil painting" effect. The 3rd photo is visibly softer than the others -- I wonder which setting has been used.

I've posted a new Image 3.

The new 3rd shot looks better and now similar to 1 and 2

could you please reveal settings per photo?

The new 3rd shot looks better and now similar to 1 and 2

could you please reveal settings per photo?

In 24 hours -- waiting for next day in the UK.

Steve

Ok...

Starbucks began to lose share price as Coffee Bean is getting popular among videographers :P

Ok...

Starbucks began to lose share price as Coffee Bean is getting popular among videographers :P

Coffee Bean's my spot in Las Vegas. Here are pix from K.L. Malaysia.

Going by the similarities between 202 & 203, I'd say the progressive pics do suffer a little bit of the smudging in the V1U. Not as bad as the 25P pics shown by others. The wood grain does look funky as Thomas points out. Were these pics sharpened at all?

Coffee Bean's my spot in Las Vegas. Here are pix from K.L. Malaysia.

I had a Black Forest iced coffee (with cream!) in that very Coffee bean 3 months ago. Small world...

TT

I've forgotton the details of your worry about field encoded MPEG, but all 1080i ATSC has this issue -- and yet I've yet to see any huge protest about this as being a big quality issue. There are many other interlace problems, and this one is just one more. It seems to me that you are simply pointing-out one of the many advantages of progressive.

In the case of Sony 24p, 25p, and 30p -- I don't see that these modes will look any worse than 50i or 60i. And, that really is the only important point to someone buying a V1.

It seems irrelevant to point-out that 720p offers better chroma. It also offers 60p. But, if folks want 720p they obviously aren't going to buy any Sony camcorder. So I'm not sure why you keep pointing this issue on the V1 thread.

It doesn't have to be just 720p. the F modes from the Canon HDV cameras use a true progressive encoding so the blocks of chroma are cleaner.

This isn't usually an issue with interlaced video becuase it is meant to be shown as interlaced or split out as 60p. In this case the chroma will look normal on an interlaced display or as 60p. Where it is noticed is when we try to put progressive into interlaced which for the most part is only done on DVD's and now the SONY V1.

Where an issue can come up is when you want to process those frames as progressive such as keying in a NLE as a progressive timeline or if you plan on going to film which is progressive. Even if you plan on going back to a medium that will be shown on a HDTV or interlaced display the keying will be better with 720p or Canon F modes.

If live capturing from component or HDMI will be used then this will not be an issue at all.

I did not invent this issue. Adam Wilt has written about it a few times in some of his articles. If you do not trust me on this subject then ask Adam Wilt about it.

It doesn't have to be just 720p. the F modes from the Canon HDV cameras use a true progressive encoding so the blocks of chroma are cleaner.

Sorry, I keep forgetting Canon -- not because they aren't good, but the H1's price, ergonomics, and styling turn me off. (And, the A1's viewfinder is too small for me.) But, you are 100% correct -- there is an alternative 1080/24p system that doesn't have this issue.

Now I understand where you are coming from -- sorry I totally didn't catch it at all. Me very bad. Now I'm all ears. Can you explain the 4:2:0 MPEG-2 interlace problem again, please.

I'm not yet especially interested in the keying issue, but in these two topics:

1) without yet giving away which pix is which -- one of these images does, in fact, have more detail. I'm wondering how/if the chroma issue could cause a difference in DETAIL -- in a still image grabbed from FCP (you were correct) and/or viewed as video.

2) how this issue does not affect 1080i when is is viewed on one's HDTV.

PS: How do I use Liquid to grab better images. I'll post them as soon as I grab them.

PS: How do I use Liquid to grab better images. I'll post them as soon as I grab them.

Use Sony Vegas set to Best/Full, HDV Rack, or FrameGrabber for grabbing stills for best presentation. FCP isn't a great tool for grabbing stills.

Hi,

I imported each clip into photoshop. I then resized each clip to 1920x1080 (this is the true format you get with HDV). I then spliced a 640x1080 image of each clip in thirds and combined them. The image I've attached is a 1920x1080, with the image 1, then image 2, then image 3. I did this to see if there was an obvious division line between the three images.

I find it difficult visually to see where the division line is (keep in mind that the three individual clips are of equal size: the first, second, and third images are all 640x1080 to combine the 1920x1080 image).

I did notice that the original image 1 is brighter than the other two, and that image 3 is slightly brighter than image 2. Also, if you look at the pitcher from the original three images, there is a change in the handle (something moved between image 1 and the other images; could be the lighting difference).

I didn't do any processing aside from resizing the image to the proper aspect ratio.

I will be getting my V1U tomorrow and plan on taping my 3 year old's school Christmas play (hopefully...). I will be making comparisons on the 24p, 24pA, 30p, and 60i. I plan on shooting with the 24p for an Indie film next fall.

Hope this helps.

Todd

Here is the same image but with a small white line that shows where the division between the separate images are. Again, the original image 1 is the first third, the original image 2 is the second third, and the original image 3 is the last third.

Todd

The image, attachmentid=1585, is by far the best image. I think this is the image people are saying is soft. But it isn't. The other two images suffer from a bit of aliasing which gives a bit of zing to the image hence the sharper comments.

There are much more jaggies in 1586 and 1591.

I am hoping 1585 is 30P which will bode well for 25P. But it's probably 60i comparing what I am seeing in 50i.

TT

Coffee Bean's my spot in Las Vegas. Here are pix from K.L. Malaysia.

Ah, the Coffee bean in Times Square KL... I will be there soon..in February.

a still image grabbed from FCP (you were correct) and/or viewed as video.

Steve, could you please tell me how to grab stills from FCP? My V1E arrived today and I would like to test and post stills for further assessment in the forum.

Thanks,

Zsolt

The image, attachmentid=1585, is by far the best image. I think this is the image people are saying is soft. But it isn't. The other two images suffer from a bit of aliasing which gives a bit of zing to the image hence the sharper comments.

There are much more jaggies in 1586 and 1591.

I am hoping 1585 is 30P which will bode well for 25P.

TT

Now that YOU've had a chance to view these -- #1585 (Image 1) is 60i. At my end, this clearly has more detail on the wood grain.

The other two are progressive. They are a bit softer to my eyes. But, these could be from my capture from FCP. I'll try Vegas.

Now which is 24p and 30p?

Steve, could you please tell me how to grab stills from FCP?

Choose Export > Quicktime then pick still image from the dropdown menu. Then pick the file/compression format you want to use.

Now that YOU've had a chance to view these -- #1585 (Image 1) is 60i. At my end, this clearly has more detail on the wood grain.

The other two are progressive. They are a bit softer to my eyes. But, these could be from my capture from FCP. I'll try Vegas.

Now which is 24p and 30p?

Steve,

Should we expect 24P ,25P ,30P to be as good as 50i, 60i with updates to NLEs?

From what you and Thomas are discussing it appears that NLEs treat Progressive HDV differently to Interlaced. As the Progressive images from the Sony are Interlaced this may/is causing the loss in quality over 50i, 60i. So can the quality be improved with updates to NLEs or is this a fundamental limitation of Progressive segmented frames in the HDV context?

Cheers

TT

Here are three images. Is one of significantly lower quality? Which one?


These are the obvious differences I see.

Look at the left cup, the reflection behind the words "no sugar added" change between 1 and 2/3 (other reflections in other cups too).

The main difference between 2 and 3 seems to be a slightly different gamma.

Between 1 and 2/3 the details in the wood grain appear muted. However, the details in the high contrast small prints on the coffee packages or cups are similar. Therefore the high contrast resolution of the picture is not degraded in the progressive pictures versus the interlaced pictures, but the low contrast resolution appears to be degraded.

Maybe we are seeing noise reduction kicking in (progressive should halve the sensitivity over interlaced). What where the gain values for each picture?

So can the quality be improved with updates to NLEs or is this a fundamental limitation of Progressive segmented frames in the HDV context?


That's the question I'm wondering about. It seems DSE should know the answer to this, but for some reason he is refusing to provide ANY explanation of Vegas support for the V1.

Yet he claims to be very plugged into the Vegas implementation which he says supports 24PA -- whatever this is.

And, what about the claimed FCP support at the time V1 shipping?

Something is going on, but it's getting a bit late in the day since folks are now getting their V1s today!

(progressive should halve the sensitivity over interlaced). What where the gain values for each picture?

All CMOS captures are at 60p and both I and P are passed through a 30% low-pass filter. So images "should" be identical as is sensitivity.

But, the question of the hour is can/should an NLE process the P video differently than I video?

If it should, and it's not, then work needs to be done on the NLEs. Which is why what Vegas is or is not doing needs to be fully explained. We really shouldn't have to guessing at all this.

I'm following this thread with great interest; however my impression is that the alleged softness of progressive modes is now being associated with the way NLE's treat them. Please remember that even before compressing and writing to tape, the V1E produces a much softer image on a full res monitor when in 25p than in 50i, hooked vis component or HDMI alike!

I'm following this thread with great interest; however my impression is that the alleged softness of progressive modes is now being associated with the way NLE's treat them. Please remember that even before compressing and writing to tape, the V1E produces a much softer image on a full res monitor when in 25p than in 50i, hooked vis component or HDMI alike!

Are you referring to the "oil paint" effect 25P? Because that's a whole other ball game. This set of images, while not exactly what I would have been looking for in progressive mode, certainly aren't anywhere near the mess of the 25P stuff on the problem cameras..

That's the question I'm wondering about. It seems DSE should know the answer to this, but for some reason he is refusing to provide ANY explanation of Vegas support for the V1.

Yet he claims to be very plugged into the Vegas implementation which he says supports 24PA -- whatever this is.

And, what about the claimed FCP support at the time V1 shipping?

Something is going on, but it's getting a bit late in the day since folks are now getting their V1s today!
I haven't seen a specific question, Steve, so I don't know how to answer your comment that I've "refused" to answer anything.
So here goes:
1. The "SCNA" mode mentioned in the addendum that has had everyone speculating about what it means is......

Typo for "SCAN" mode.

2. There is no 24PA mode on the V1, please don't put words in my mouth, especially when I've taken *great* pains to explain why there is no PA mode with a GOP structure.
There are two modes in the V1.
~one mode freezes the end frame/stop so that every segment begins with a perfect 3:2 cadence when the camcorder is started.
~one mode does not.

Various NLE's may or may not be able to manage the second mode; all NLE's manage the first mode correctly, or should.
Vegas intelligently supports both modes through reading of subcode.
That's the answer to the Vegas question on the V1. I've already answered any question posed regarding the DR 60.

I suppose that I'm still "refusing" to answer a question somewhere, but given that this thread is already ridiculously long, it's merged from 3 different threads, and it's Superbowl production season...I've got better things to be doing than trying to read through the entire thread to find the nugget of a question that perhaps has never been specifically asked.

If you have a *specific* question about Vegas and what it is doing with the frames or DR60, please start a new thread and ask the question. If I don't know the specific answer, I'll find it, and post at my earliest convenience.
Some of us are full-time production people, and actually shoot cameras and edit for a living. I'm sure that's a difficult concept, but believe it or not...that's how it works with most of the wranglers here.

I haven't seen a specific question, Steve, so I don't know how to answer your comment that I've "refused" to answer anything.

Here are the requests made to YOU while you had time to argue about OT "DVCPRO HD support in Vegas -- so you were obviously not all that busy.

Stephen van Vuuren
... though I would like to see details as exactly how workflow works with it.

Steve Mullen
Could you outline the capture, edit, and the addition of pulldown during export.

Specifically, are you dropping frames during capture or skipping frames during editing. If the former, is the MPEG-2 being decoded? If so, is it re-encoded to MPEG-2 or recompressed to an intermediate codec?

Stephen van Vuuren
... the real issue I'm interested in is how good the Vegas V1 support is. I would like to hear some detailed DR60 workflow:

(1) How are the files saved?
(2) What are the stream details?
(3) What shooting modes are supported?
(4) File naming, folders?
(5) Transfer speeds?


Stephen van Vuuren
But despite all the fun in Sony vs. Panny, I'm still interested in Spot's report on DR60 workflow...

Steve Mullen
ONCE AGAIN we are OT.

It would be very helpful if you would provide a detailed explanation of the V1's SCNA mode and the Vegas support of the V1. I have to wonder why, given the topic of this thread you have yet to respond to this very simple request. One that has also been made at the Vegas site.

It would be great if we got this information before the V1's arrive and folks puzzle through the V1 errata sheet on SCNA!

Tony Tremble
Should we expect 24P ,25P ,30P to be as good as 50i, 60i with updates to NLEs?

From what you and Thomas are discussing it appears that NLEs treat Progressive HDV differently to Interlaced. As the Progressive images from the Sony are Interlaced this may/is causing the loss in quality over 50i, 60i. So can the quality be improved with updates to NLEs or is this a fundamental limitation of Progressive segmented frames in the HDV context?

It would be very helpful if you would provide a detailed explanation of the V1's SCNA mode and the Vegas support of the V1. I have to wonder why, given the topic of this thread you have yet to respond to this very simple request. One that has also been made at the Vegas site.



Once again for the third time.....

There is NO "SCNA" mode in the V1U. It's a typo. Plain. Simple. Easy.

SCNA="scan" with the letters N and A transposed.
As for the rest...I've answered all those questions at least once.

[QUOTE=Douglas Spotted Eagle]

So here goes:
1. The "SCNA" mode mentioned in the addendum that has had everyone speculating about what it means is......

Typo for "SCAN" mode.

2. There is no 24PA mode on the V1, please don't put words in my mouth, especially when I've taken *great* pains to explain why there is no PA mode with a GOP structure.

A) I never said YOU claimed there was. It came from this post: "the production HVR-V1U has an additional progressive scan mode not listed in the core manual ... . In addition to selectable 30p and 24p modes, there is an additional "24A" mode (also referred to as "24pSCNA" in long form).

B) Sorry, I did miss the fact it seems to be 24A or 24pSCAN. I'm the one who mixed these into 24PA. Big deal -- this is something you could have clarified days ago when the 24pSCNA post appeared.


There are two modes in the V1.
~one mode freezes the end frame/stop so that every segment begins with a perfect 3:2 cadence when the camcorder is started.
~one mode does not.

Various NLE's may or may not be able to manage the second mode; all NLE's manage the first mode correctly, or should.
Vegas intelligently supports both modes through reading of subcode.

That's the answer to the Vegas question on the V1.

From all this I gather that:

A) the "non 24A" mode was designed in a way that it doesn't always complete a 15-frame GOP. Because if it always did -- then the next GOP would start with an I-frame of a new 2-3 pulldown cycle.

B) And, rather than enhance the old mode -- a new mode called 24A was added.

But here's the big question -- if "Vegas intelligently supports both modes through reading of subcode" what's the reason for the new 24A mode? Seems to me if the old mode can be handled, there's no stated clear reason for the new mode.

There's also Tony and Tom's questions: given the issues of field recorded progressive -- should an NLE use different filtering for I verses P video? And, if so -- does Vegas do so?


Lastly, I gather that other than playback pauses -- 24A is the same in all other ways as non-24A. Correct?

mpeg-2 uses two different forms of 4:2:0 sampling. One for interlaced encoding and one for progressive encoding. Progressive encoding uses true 2x2 pixel blocks for chroma which are very clean and easy to predict and look normal. Interlaced encoding does this same 2x2 chroma pixel block but for each field. So what it is doing is encoding 60 images at 1440x540 and then interleves them together to encode as 1440x1080. The problem is that odd lines will have a different chroma then the even lines because they represent two different monents in time.

With 60i footage it isn't a big deal because on a HDTV the fields get bobbed out anyways and are viewed as the 1440x540 like they were before they were encoded. The correct chroma samples are shown with the correct field. On a digital HDTV interlaced footage will always be viewed as 60p. This is even true on SD interlaced material since the display is not an interlaced device. On a tube based TV this is not an issue either because it is designed to show one field at a time.

All of this only affects chroma and should not affect the luma or detail in any way so it is not why the images are softer.

Since SONY is the first and only HDV company to put progressive in an interlaced video stream this has not really shown up before except for in 24p DVD's being played from not so good DVD players. The decoder needs to understand to decode the chroma in the proper way or else it just assumes it is interlaced and it will split the chroma out as 1440x540x60p instead of just 1440x1080x30p. This is what causes the jagged color lines on very saturated objects. This is very true for red objects.

Every NLE that can edit HDV should already have a decoder able to do this sort of thing because many HDV cameras do their progressive as true progressive. The problem is how to tell the decoder that the stream is 1080p and not 1080i. I am hoping SONY had enough brains to add this into the update for Vegas which is why I tried bringing it up months ago on here. In Liquid we can tell the program to deal with the footage as non interlaced or interlaced but I'm not sure if this would adjust the decoder at all. I need to test this out but I'm not sure if Liquid will handle this the correct way yet or not. Since I have no 24p footage from the V1 it is hard to test.

Steve try the m2t file from those images in Liquid and right click on the clip and select properties and tell it to use non interlaced instead of top field first. You can then go to export to file and select image and make sure you set the resolution and format for the still image. Oh yeah and set a mark in and markout (I) (O) on the still image you want or it will export the whole clip as an image sequence.

From the look of those images FCP is assuming 24p,25p,30p,50i,60i are all 60i and is decoding them as interlaced video. This may ok for some people but those interested in visual effects may view this as a problem. I'm sure FCP will be updated to fix this but who knows how long that may be. You may have to use some other tool to decode the video first.

For Cineform users you may not notice an issue either assuming the decoder Cineform uses is smart enough to realize the difference. Cineform upconverts the chroma from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 which really gets rid of any concern here. What may be a problem however is if Cineform can tell the difference between 30p and 60i since they both look like a 60i video. Cineform may also have to be updated which I'm sure they will do very very fast if they have not already.

If you never plan on doing and effects work or keying this may never even be an issue for you. This is in no way a defect of the camera but just the nature of mpeg-2. That is why Canon chose to go with a unorthodox form of HDV for the F modes. It was the only way to trully have progressive frames with 1080 mpeg-2. For normal viewing on a interlaced TV or digital HDTV you may never notice normal footage or normal edited footage having any issue becuase of how it is displayed. If you do plan on doing any extreme color correction work, keying, heavy effects work, scaling up, printing stills or transferring to film then you have a good chance of seeing this sort of thing.

My suggestion for effects artists is to make sure the decoder for your NLE will know how to deal with this, wait until it does, get a new NLE or use HDMI which is 4:2:2.

Again my only reason for bringing this up now as well as a few months ago is the hope that the NLE's realize there is a correct way and a not so correct way of decoding P inside of an I. If they do not then we should wait until they do. I still think true progressive is better but if done the correct way P in I can look very good. Although true progressing encoding is still a cleaner form of encoding per bitrate and I would have really liked to see SONY use the same method as Canon but I understand the reason for not wanting to and it makes sense from a certain point of view.

Steve, Thomas thank you both for flagging this issue. I have learnt more about HDV encoding than I ever thought I needed to!!! :)

With a bit of luck we'll get NLE updates in anticipation of fully function 25P cameras. :)

Cheers both

TT

this is something you could have clarified days ago when the 24pSCNA post appeared.Let's all go a little easier on each other, please. With so much international and/or domestic travel going on, plus real-world shooting, work, etc., it's a wonder that this forum is as active as it is. I certainly don't expect anyone to camp out on the forum and answer questions as soon as they're asked, let alone see every little thing that gets posted (and if we do have people that could manage such a thing around their real-life commitments, I would find that disturbing)!

Used the new version of Vegas with 24p from my prototype.

Used the new Preset.

Two questions -- why given video uses 48kHz -- does the Audio tab have audio preset to 44.1kHz? And, why is the TC still set to 29.97fps when the Preset is 23.934fps?

I believe that in fact the DV spec specifies audio at 32KHz, 44.1KHz and 48KHz, this is the first time I've heard of 44.1 being used though, wierd.

I believe that in fact the DV spec specifies audio at 32KHz, 44.1KHz and 48KHz, this is the first time I've heard of 44.1 being used though, wierd.

Yes, I'm not sure why Vegas defines audio to be 44.1. But, it's got tons of CD audio stuff -- so maybe it relates to non-video audio.

I need to test this out but I'm not sure if Liquid will handle this the correct way yet or not. Since I have no 24p footage from the V1 it is hard to test.


Used Liquid to capture the three clips and pulled snapshots as you advised. Here they are. There's an extra #3 because toward the end of the clip there was a brightness increase. (Didn't see this with Vegas.)

I believe that in fact the DV spec specifies audio at 32KHz, 44.1KHz and 48KHz, this is the first time I've heard of 44.1 being used though, wierd.

Bob, while the DV spec allows for all three sample rates, as you know, Vegas doesn't care about sample rate on the timeline, and will always render video to 48K, and always convert resample all rates to 48K/16bit without any issue.
Open a new project in Vegas without instructing the file properties to be 48k, and it's audio properties will always be 44.1 by default. Changing it up to 48k or down to 32K or any other bitrate won't change anything until you go to render. The default DV and MPEG templates are all compliant at 48K, so regardless of what sample format, codec, resolution you put on the timeline, Vegas will always conform the content to either the project settings as a temporary measure, or to the output template format.
The previous post suggests that Vegas is importing the audio at 44.1. This is simply an error of not understanding how Vegas works. Looking at the content's audio properties will reveal the sample rate of the content, which is irrelevant to the project properties.
To verify this, right click the event's audio, and choose "properties." The subsequent dialog will provide specific information about that event/audio settings. Set the project properties to 12k, 2 bit, and you'll not hear a change in the audio. Capture audio from a camcorder that recorded 48k/16bit audio, and you'll still get 48k/16bit audio even if the project settings are 12k/2bit. Vegas does nothing to a file on capture, save it be for writing header information about the file.

The previous post suggests that Vegas is importing the audio at 44.1. This is simply an error of not understanding how Vegas works. Looking at the content's audio properties will reveal the sample rate of the content, which is irrelevant to the project properties.

Sorry, but you are making an incorrect assumption. Obviously the captured audio is 48kHz.

I was not sure why Vegas would have a Project default of 44.1 when today most everything VIDEO is 48kHz. After all Vegas is a video NLE. My question was why the default would be 44.1 when it "should" be 48?

Likewise, once one selects a 24p Project Template -- the TC "should" auto change to 24 because that's what it is.

It appears that in non-24A mode, shorter than 15-frame GOPs are possible as you can see below. You'll see mostly 15-frame GOPs, but there are several shorter GOPs.

But, since the subcodes are used by Vegas this shouldn't matter -- thus, it's still totally unclear why the 24A mode had to be added. Maybe Apple wanted it.

The program, G-spot, is shown on the left. In this case it has processed JVC 6-frame video. It's a wonderful PC tool!

I'm not as technically inclined as a lot of you are, so let's break it down: how is the 24P mode of this camera? Are you more impressed, not as impressed, or in the middle somewhere?

Sorry, but you are making an incorrect assumption. Obviously the captured audio is 48kHz..

Again...it's lack of understanding how Vegas functions.
Project properties are the property of the PROJECT. Just as you can import 29.97 to a 23.976 timeline/project, you can import 23.976 to a 29.97 timeline/project. Just as you can import a 32K/12bit file to a 44.1 project, and output it to a 48K file. Vegas doesn't care, it just conforms to whatever the user instructs it to conform to at render.
If you want a 23.976 project, then instruct Vegas to open a 23.976 project and switch your t/c view to fit.

I was not sure why Vegas would have a Project default of 44.1 when today most everything VIDEO is 48kHz. After all Vegas is a video NLE. My question was why the default would be 44.1 when it "should" be 48?
No, Vegas isn't just an NLE. It's a video app/NLE, and an audio app/DAW. Or both. It's whatever it needs to be for the user. Vegas began life as an audio editor.
Tal Bergman (producer of all of Rod Stewart's recent works) Rick Springfield, Dave Mustaine, Cy Curnin, Snake Sabo, and thousands of others don't ever touch the video side of the application. They use the audio side only. Vegas is the only system that has won both Emmy's and Grammy's with only internal application use (that I'm aware of).

Likewise, once one selects a 24p Project Template -- the TC "should" auto change to 24 because that's what it is.
Vegas is a chameleon, and expects the user to have some modicum of understanding as to how to set up a project. If all your projects are 23.976, then tell Vegas to only open 23.976 projects with 48k/16bit audio. I have Vegas set to open up with 24bit, 48k audio. Sometimes I'll set it to 24/96, and on rare occasion, 24/192. Sometimes I'm in an HD resolution project, and sometimes I'm in an SD resolution project. Sometimes I have no video at all. Sometimes, I have 23.976 on the timeline, but need to read 29.97DF because I'm interfacing with external audio gear. Sometimes I need 29.97NDF because I'm interfacing with other external audio gear or with external video decks.
Premiere, Avid, Edius, Liquid, FCP don't change their project settings when you bring in media of a different resolution, framerate, bitdepth, or sample rate, and how could any application do so with so many different media formats being brought to the timeline these days? Nothing does, and it's not sensible to expect it to do so.
Vegas tries to be as much all things to all people as it can be, while excelling at certain tasks, both audio and video. While it may not work the way *you* believe it should, it does work quite well.

I'm not as technically inclined as a lot of you are, so let's break it down: how is the 24P mode of this camera? Are you more impressed, not as impressed, or in the middle somewhere?

Chris, I believe most people are very impressed with the cam and it's 24p modes. Read the threads by others that have had access to the camcorder, those that have now received theirs from resellers, etc, and no one has had a complaint about the image quality of the US-distributed camcorders. There is an apparent issue that Sony has not commented upon, related to the Euro version, or the "E" issue and 25p. B&H has delivered loads of them at this point; their camcorder department manager seems to be exceptionally impressed with the camcorder, and sales bear that out. Users in this forum are very happy. There are some nice pictures for you to observe in this thread, or downloadable from this community as well for you to work with if you'd like.
If you're asking if it's significantly better than other camcorders that offer 1920 x 1080, 24p/30p output, the answer is subjective. Having shot both the Canon A1 and the Sony V1, there are things I like about both. Overall, I personally prefer the Sony V1, but I'll gladly shoot the Canon as well. The Sony V1 with the DR60 hard drive system makes for a fairly unbeatable system in it's price class.
I apologize for your confusion; this thread meanders like a drunken cat on a bumpy road.

>>There is no SCNA mode
>>Typo for "SCAN"

I'm sorry - I don't mean to contradict - but respectfully, as the one who posted the original information, I must disagree with (and correct) these statements.

There are two 24p modes on the shipping, production HVR-V1U:

One is "24pSCAN". The other is most definitely "24pSCNA" (although "SCN" is in all caps, "A" is a taller capital letter, if that makes sense). The "SCN" part is likely a short form for "SCAN" - but the A is deliberate, and "SCNA" I noted is not a typo or accidental juxtaposition of letters. (I think they could have been better-named and less-closely-named to avoid confusion, but that's what they are called).

24pSCNA is a different, distinct mode from 24pSCAN. On the shipping camera, this is clear both from the pink addendum/errata sheet included in the box, and more importantly, on the LCD/VF display markings on the camera (which show "24pSCAN" or "24pSCNA" depending upon which 24p mode is selected). 24pSCNA is the mode where "the phase of the 60i conversion is reset", the "time code does not progress", and "a momentary pause will occur between scenes".

The shorter form names for these modes (only used deep in the selection menu) are "24" and "24A". Perhaps we should just adopt these names in order to avoid confusion.

Anyway, that's the deal. I am hoping to shoot some footage in both of the 24p progressive modes (24pSCAN and 24pSCNA), pull them into the updated version of Vegas, and see what the difference is in how they're handled.

Steve R

Bob, while the DV spec allows for all three sample rates, as you know, Vegas doesn't care about sample rate on the timeline, and will always render video to 48K, and always convert resample all rates to 48K/16bit without any issue.
Open a new project in Vegas without instructing the file properties to be 48k, and it's audio properties will always be 44.1 by default. Changing it up to 48k or down to 32K or any other bitrate won't change anything until you go to render. The default DV and MPEG templates are all compliant at 48K, so regardless of what sample format, codec, resolution you put on the timeline, Vegas will always conform the content to either the project settings as a temporary measure, or to the output template format.
The previous post suggests that Vegas is importing the audio at 44.1. This is simply an error of not understanding how Vegas works. Looking at the content's audio properties will reveal the sample rate of the content, which is irrelevant to the project properties.
To verify this, right click the event's audio, and choose "properties." The subsequent dialog will provide specific information about that event/audio settings. Set the project properties to 12k, 2 bit, and you'll not hear a change in the audio. Capture audio from a camcorder that recorded 48k/16bit audio, and you'll still get 48k/16bit audio even if the project settings are 12k/2bit. Vegas does nothing to a file on capture, save it be for writing header information about the file.

Sorry,
I misread the original post, I thought we were talking about the camera recording at 44.1, which was why I thought it pretty strange given that it is in the DV spec but it's never been used.

Now reading the post again I see we're talking about Vegas's default audio setting being 44.1KHz!

Well I long about changed my default to 48KHz so I'd kind of forgotten about that. There is a minor reason not to leave it 44.1 though, that's the sample rate it'll output audio to the soundcar during playback. Now while that doesn't make any difference to rendered output it does mean more work for the CPU.
On the other hand unless you get into Windows and disable all system sounds you might be better off leaving it at 44.1KHz. Otherwise the sound card is having it's sample rate changed back and forth and that can cause annoying glitches in audio playback, again doesn't affect rendered output though, only of nuisance value.

>>There is no SCNA mode
>>Typo for "SCAN"

I'm sorry - I don't mean to contradict - but respectfully, as the one who posted the original information, I must disagree with (and correct) these statements.

There are two 24p modes on the shipping, production HVR-V1U:

One is "24pSCAN". The other is most definitely "24pSCNA" (although "SCN" is in all caps, "A" is a taller capital letter, if that makes sense). The "SCN" part is likely a short form for "SCAN" - but the A is deliberate, and "SCNA" I noted is not a typo or accidental juxtaposition of letters. (I think they could have been better-named and less-closely-named to avoid confusion, but that's what they are called).

24pSCNA is a different, distinct mode from 24pSCAN. On the shipping camera, this is clear both from the pink addendum/errata sheet included in the box, and more importantly, on the LCD/VF display markings on the camera (which show "24pSCAN" or "24pSCNA" depending upon which 24p mode is selected). 24pSCNA is the mode where "the phase of the 60i conversion is reset", the "time code does not progress", and "a momentary pause will occur between scenes".

The shorter form names for these modes (only used deep in the selection menu) are "24" and "24A". Perhaps we should just adopt these names in order to avoid confusion.

Anyway, that's the deal. I am hoping to shoot some footage in both of the 24p progressive modes (24pSCAN and 24pSCNA), pull them into the updated version of Vegas, and see what the difference is in how they're handled.

Steve R

Both the designer of the camera in Japan and the product manager in the USA state that it's a typo. Perhaps they're wrong.

Are you absolutely sure?

If you see the addendum sheet, and see the on-screen displays - that statement just doesn't make any sense. (In other words - correct the "typo", and there's no differentiating the modes from each other in documentation discussion or onscreen display).

Also - if you look at the bitmap shown in the documentation and on screen for 24pSCNA - it's a distinctly and deliberately different icon (with a larger "A").

Lastly, this would have to be a "typo" in all languages of the doc, and at more importantly, at many different points throughout the firmware code and development (including by the person who created/painted the bitmap "icon" for "24pSCNA").

Honestly, if you take a look at it - it really seems clear that there are two modes, that each must (obviously) have a different distinct name to differentiate it (esp. as an on-screen indicator of which mode is currently active) - and the two names chosen were 24pSCAN and 24pSCNA (with the larger "A" I've noted, and "SCN" a short form of "scan").

Really, it's not as simple as a typo on an addendum page. It all makes perfect sense as I'm describing - but makes no sense at all if it's a "typo" all over the place (esp. if, as per above, you "correct" the typo yourself, as a logic exercise).

I fully realize that you have extensive experience with the prototype camera - but please, respectfully, see the shipping version for yourself and consider what I'm saying, and I think you'll agree with me that it's not a typo and it all makes perfect sense.

Steve R

Hi Steve,

From what you've described I'm inclined to believe you.

Perhaps to settle this once and for all you could post a picture of the LCD display menu which has the different 24p options. Possibly a scan of the addendum sheet?