I like the Z1 form factor. I think it's a very comfortable camcorder to use. Do you think Sony will change the EX into an HD100/HD200 type shoulder mount cam? That would be pretty cool - 1/2" 3-chip, fixed manual lens, shoulder mount mini-PDW camcorder. Or maybe they'll introduce both - shoulder mount and Z1 form factor. Either way, it's the camera a lot of us have been waiting for.

Do you think Sony will change the EX into an HD100/HD200 type shoulder mount cam?

Do you remember the FX1 when it was first shown at IBC and NAB? Everyone felt it was a mockup and not a real camera. Whether it was or not, when they finally released the FX1 (about 6 months later IIRC) it looked just like the one they first showed.

Personally I think Sony will release a camera that looks like the one we saw at NAB, and they will want to differentiate it from the larger XDCAM series by giving it a fixed lens.

Personally I think Sony will release a camera that looks like the one we saw at NAB, and they will want to differentiate it from the larger XDCAM series by giving it a fixed lens.

I think one of the reasons for the XDCAM EX having a fixed lens is because it’s cheaper to manufacture this way. You end up paying less for the camcorder which is a good thing.

Has anyone herd what the zoom ratio is on the new XDCam? I'm hoping 20x...

Joel

I remember someone saying 14X.

I would love to see this camcorder with a zoom ratio of 20X as well but with 1/2" imagers, it seems unlikely unless they make the lens bigger.

It most likely won't have a PDW designator. It's not a new format, it's the XDCAM format being written onto flash, rather than optical. That's the beauty of it. Owners of XDCAM HD cameras will be able to have a smaller form factor camera that records with the same codec so they won't have to work as hard to intercut between large and small camera anymore. It IS a fixed lens camera. That much is for certain. I had the camera in my hands yesterday and it does power up. I just didn't have anything to record onto.

The rear viewfinder is color and the LCD screen tucks under the handle and swivels out to the left, then rotates into viewing position.

-gb-

Greg, if you don't mind, since you had the oportunity to play with this pre-production unit, did you have a chance to look at both the LCD monitor and viewfinder with the camera switched on? How did it look to you? Sharp enough to eye focus? Can you compare it to the HVX200 if you've used one before? Of course it might still be up for change, but let's assume it's not for discussion's sake.

Greg, if you don't mind, since you had the oportunity to play with this pre-production unit, did you have a chance to look at both the LCD monitor and viewfinder with the camera switched on? How did it look to you? Sharp enough to eye focus? Can you compare it to the HVX200 if you've used one before? Of course it might still be up for change, but let's assume it's not for discussion's sake.

Have not handled the HVX200 so I can't compare. I was specifically looking at the color VF to determine focus capability. It seemed okay, but I've gotten used to the BW viewfinder on my F350 with the peaking to help determine focus (IOW, I've gotten spoiled). I didn't have a chance to look for any type of focusing aid (2x or focus assist) like the JVC HD100 has.

-gb-

Greg, another important question to you: can the EX talk to the PDW-U1 directly, so that dumping from SxS cards to the Pro Disc is possible in field, without a computer?

Greg, another important question to you: can the EX talk to the PDW-U1 directly, so that dumping from SxS cards to the Pro Disc is possible in field, without a computer?

Saw that question earlier and honestly, I don't know as yet. The only interface I know of on the PDW-U1 is a USB2 connection. We had asked Sony for firewire but for some reason they went with USB2. Keep in mind Piotr, that the drive won't be able to write to disc until 2008.

-gb-

Saw that question earlier and honestly, I don't know as yet. The only interface I know of on the PDW-U1 is a USB2 connection. We had asked Sony for firewire but for some reason they went with USB2. Keep in mind Piotr, that the drive won't be able to write to disc until 2008.

-gb-

Greg, 2008 is OK with me if the EX with 2 SxS cards, plus the PDW-U1 with a bunch of disks is all I need when away from my office! I think this exciting camera should go with the PDW-U1 as naturally as my V1 goes with the HVR-DR60 disk drive.

Have not handled the HVX200 so I can't compare. I was specifically looking at the color VF to determine focus capability. It seemed okay, but I've gotten used to the BW viewfinder on my F350 with the peaking to help determine focus (IOW, I've gotten spoiled). I didn't have a chance to look for any type of focusing aid (2x or focus assist) like the JVC HD100 has.

-gb-

Thanks for that Greg. Yes I too have been spoiled, on a smaller scale, with the FU-1000 on my XL2. In my attempt to move up to HD, viewfinder resolution and accuracy might be a difference maker.

The FU-1000 option on the XL2 was such a smart business decision, I can't understand why it wasn't implemented on more prosumer type cameras. I know an HD version of the FU-1000 wouldn't come cheap, but I also know they'd at least have one customer right here regardless.

For the record, I have used the HVX200 and thought the resolution was unacceptable. Focusing with a 1/2" format is going to be even more difficult, so I'm hoping Sony has thought that through.

Here's to hoping someone at Sony is reading this post.

If Sony were to change the design to look like this protoype (bellow), I'd buy one in a heart beat. Should they decide to stick to the current design, I'd have to think about purchasing one. Yes, I'm a bit shallow when it comes to camera looks.

Looks like the battery would hit you right in the teeth...

Frankly, I much prefer the way the DCR-VX1000 hides the battery inside.

I'm really hoping that they put the camera on a diet before they release it. The FX-1/Z1U/AH1 are already bigger than I want to be using for a handheld camera.

The V1U/PD170/VX2100 are just about right. Anything larger really should be designed as a shoulder mount unit.

I think one thing people are overlooking about this camera is how it's truly groundbreaking in getting 1/2" chips inside it. This means the shallower depth of field that everyone is after by putting add-on adapters on it. This is a BIG deal and I'm glad someone (though surprised it's SONY) is doing something about what the market obviously wants.

It looks like a great camera and will definitely give the H1 a run for it's money, but for now, the H1 is out and doing pretty darn well on my shoots, while this one is an unnamed prototype.

Kevin

I think one thing people are overlooking about this camera is how it's truly groundbreaking in getting 1/2" chips inside it. This means the shallower depth of field that everyone is after by putting add-on adapters on it. This is a BIG deal and I'm glad someone (though surprised it's SONY) is doing something about what the market obviously wants.

It looks like a great camera and will definitely give the H1 a run for it's money, but for now, the H1 is out and doing pretty darn well on my shoots, while this one is an unnamed prototype.

Kevin

Going from 1/3" to 1/2" will indeed decrease dof, which is nice for the added possibilities, but it won't be that dramatic of a change. We're still far from 35mm film dof. But as mentioned before, if implemented well, this chip should give much better low light performances, which will certainly hit a home run amongst the wedding / event videography crowd. That IMO would be the main advantage of going 1/2".

On the DOF subject. I wasn't able to find the f-stop rating of the suggested fix lens anywhere. If it starts at F2.0 down to F4 the tele end, we haven't won much.
Anyone has more information on this?

Still exited!

tom

not to restate the obvious, but 35mm dof isn't the end-all be-all holy grail of imaging. These days, shallow DOF has become synonymous with high production value, but its hardly the only way to shoot. The marginal decrease in DOF over 1/3" chips IS useful to the codec in terms of reduced detail on "background" objects, the the difference is not extremely dramatic to the eye. Less bandwidth devoted to out of focus details means more of the codec's bandwidth can go towards capturing what you actually want.

Whats more important about the move to larger chips is the size and spacing of the imaging elements, and their ability to stay cool. heat=noise with chips, so the larger the chip, the easier it is to keep cool. Lower noise means better low-light performance, which is useful to more than just wedding/event shooters. The true holy grail of film production has been the quest for faster lenses, and faster (while still fine-grained) stocks, to allow shooting in more natural lighting situations. Kubrick's ULTRA fast lens for Barry Lindon wasn't about 1" deep DOF, it was about using practical candles AS the illumination without supplemental sources. The shift from 1/3" to 1/2" isn't huge, but all supporting technologies involved in these new cameras are improving, meaning that with each successive generation, we're getting tools that allow us to tell our stories more naturally. More sensitivity and faster lens, along with an industry standard storage protocol? Sounds like a winner to me. I'm excited to see how it looks on the market, this camera could potentially fulfill the needs of a LOT of productions. Hopefully SONY will sidestep the DOF and resolution hype and concentrate on the more important points in video/hd dreamworld - color response, dynamic range, low-light performance, lens performance (both interface and imaging).

what is the colorspace for XDCAM ? 4:2:0 ?? or 4:2:2

If this guy is 4:2:2 it will rock !

On the DOF subject. I wasn't able to find the f-stop rating of the suggested fix lens anywhere. If it starts at F2.0 down to F4 the tele end, we haven't won much.
Anyone has more information on this?

Still exited!

tom

Thomas, looking at the picture here (http://news.sel.sony.com/en/image_library/b2b/broadcast_production/content_create_edit/high/29749) you can see a F1.9 marking near the iris ring. Whether or not this will stay the same on the final production unit nobody knows, but since it's a fully manual lense with manual iris control, I'd assume it will at least keep that value throughout the focal range.

BTW, there weren't any markings on the NAB prototype if I go by Chris Hurd's pics in this thread, so they might not have yet settled on something definitive on that front.

BTW, there weren't any markings on the NAB prototype if I go by Chris Hurd's pics in the other thread, so they might not have yet settled on something definitive on that front.

There seem to be two versions of the camera floating around. The prototype shown at the press conference, and the one I had in my hands for about 10 minutes. Although I don't remember exact values, I did look to make sure that all three... zoom, focus, and iris had proper markings on the lens. The unit I had also had the integral lens cover with an open/close lever on the back of the lens hood. When I look at Chris' pictures from the press conference, I see no such lever.

-gb-

I concur, 4:2:2 would be rockin'.

One of the Sony VPs at NAB said all the specs on this camera will be coming out in July.

He led me to believe that a few details (mainly price) of the camera hadn't been completely worked out yet.

Sony seem to be aiming the camera as a PD170 for Discovery, since they now accept XDCAM HD at 35 Mb/s. The 1/2" CCD should improve sensitivity.

Having been shooting with a Z1 today, looking at the picture of the proposed new camera, Sony seems to have avoided covering it in loads of useless buttons that get accidentally pushed.

A decent viewfinder would be good as well, the Z1 is terrible. It's only when you go make to shooting with a high end camera do realise how truly awful these prosumer viewfinders are. With HD the focus becomes a lot more critical and these LCDs tell you nothing unless you've got time to use the zoom in feature. Although, the JVC is the best of the bunch in this regard with its rather neat focus assist.

I must admit that I tend to dig the Z1 into my shoulder á la Canon and use the LCD screen like a V/F when handholding for a sustained interview shots. With mics etc fitted all these cameras (except the JVC and I know someone who added weight to the back end of the Canon H1 so it balanced on their shoulder) get very front heavy and the increasing camera weight isn't helping.

Also, if you want to use manual controls, the camera has to be supported when shooting hand held, usually it's a matter of hitting the auto-focus button on fast moving docs, otherwise you get camera wobble.

I concur, 4:2:2 would be rockin'.

One of the Sony VPs at NAB said all the specs on this camera will be coming out in July.

He led me to believe that a few details (mainly price) of the camera hadn't been completely worked out yet.

Theodore, I've read so many things left and right on this new cam that I don't know anymore which info comes from where, but I'm pretty sure I read it would be 4:2:0 (take it as speculation as I don't remember where I've seen this), meaning the same format and bitrates available in the older XDCAM HD cams. The fact it is said to shoot 18mb / 25mb / 35mb kind of confirms this.

It would not make sense to provide this camera as a 4:2:2 model, considering they just released a new high end XDCAM HD 4:2:2 recording at 50mbps VBR. Therefore you can probably assume it'll be 4:2:0 (which has been said to hold color info exceptionally well for such a low chromatic resolution).

4:2:2 isn't happening on this model. The forthcoming 2/3 camera is the only one that's going to support the higher bit rate.

-gb-

HD SDI out means at least 4:2:2 with the HD SDI right?

HD SDI out means at least 4:2:2 with the HD SDI right?

Yes it does. That's pretty much the case with any camera offering HDSDI if you take a live signal from the camera. Once it gets recorded though, the MPEG compression and chroma subsampling have already taken place.

-gb-

It would not make sense to provide this camera as a 4:2:2 model, considering they just released a new high end XDCAM HD 4:2:2 recording at 50mbps VBR. Therefore you can probably assume it'll be 4:2:0 (which has been said to hold color info exceptionally well for such a low chromatic resolution).

It's my understanding having spoke with Sony today, that it will record in the 50mb mode as 4:2:2

It's my understanding having spoke with Sony today, that it will record in the 50mb mode as 4:2:2

That might be true, but logic says it won't since they have a much more expensive model shooting 4:2:0 35mbps. That would be odd to have better specs on the lower end model.

Of course, I'm not going to complain if it happens. ;)

Wasn't it true that the current XDCAM HD cameras actually down converted to 4:2:0 before the live signal was sent out SDI? I remember at one point there were a lot of threads about this. The signal was still uncompressed but the chroma sampling was reduced for whatever reason. I hope what I remember was just false information at the time.

If it was true however I wonder if SONY would limit the SDI output on this camera the same way.

As to the 4:2:2 recording mode... I do think it is something that SONY could decide to do. I mean the media and camera itself could handle it no problem at all. It all comes down to how good they want to make this camera.

If SONY is really trying to target this camera at HVX200 users which it pretty much is then it may make sense for them to also have the 4:2:2 mode. This would mean the camera would pretty much kill the HVX200 is almost every single aspect.

HD-SDI
longer recording times
cheaper media.
full resoultion 4:2:2 recording
1/2" chips

These are all things the HVX200 does not have.

If the SONY does not have the 4:2:2 mode then I'm sure there will be debates and heated arguments all over this and other forums about how the HVX200 is still better because it records 4:2:2 color right to the card. Regardless if it is better or not the focus of the argument will be there and many people may be afraid of 4:2:0. Many of us already know 4:2:0 is not bad at all but it is hard to try to convince some people of that.

Given past experience, I think we can assume that any information as to whether the camera is definitely 4:2:2 or not is unlikely to be reliably accurate... even if apparently from the horses mouth!

That might be true, but logic says it won't since they have a much more expensive model shooting 4:2:0 35mbps. That would be odd to have better specs on the lower end model.

Of course, I'm not going to complain if it happens. ;)

They claim that the newer cameras will be shooting in the 4:2:2 50mb mode as well.

Sony often try and protect their higher end gear, but I hope they add 4:2:2 50 Mbit/s to this camera because it wouldn't really affect the sales of the largest, shoulder mount cameras.

It would just make this the best "palmcorder" ever made... on paper at least. It would also make it the weapon of choice for B camera shooting in many circumstances.

A nice small shoulder mount version would be good too! Like the HD100 line.

Many of us already know 4:2:0 is not bad at all but it is hard to try to convince some people of that.

Mostly people in broadcasting...

Actually I was thinking more the people who are new to the game and insist on trusting numbers and specs only.

Wasn't it true that the current XDCAM HD cameras actually down converted to 4:2:0 before the live signal was sent out SDI? I remember at one point there were a lot of threads about this. The signal was still uncompressed but the chroma sampling was reduced for whatever reason. I hope what I remember was just false information at the time.

The HDSDI specification requires 4:2:2 colorspace. If you record to disc, it has to be upsampled to 4:2:2 out the HDSDI port. The early information had us thinking the camera head was 4:2:0 and that even a live feed would still suffer the lack of chroma from the camera head. This is not true. It is indeed 4:2:2 sampling at the camera head.

As for the 50mb 4:2:2, that is a feature of the 2/3 full size camera shown at NAB. It is still my understanding that the forthcoming XDCAM EX camera will not offer that high of a data rate.

-gb-

Ok thanks for the updated info on the XDCAM head. It was actually your posts on the XDCAM forum that mentioned that the head may be 4:2:0. After searching that whole forum no mention was ever made of it actually processing 4:2:2 in the DSP.

Ok thanks for the updated info on the XDCAM head. It was actually your posts on the XDCAM forum that mentioned that the head may be 4:2:0. After searching that whole forum no mention was ever made of it actually processing 4:2:2 in the DSP.

You're right Thomas. There was initial confusion about this. I didn't find out otherwise until late November. And that came from Sony's CTO. I have a powerpoint slide here somewhere that even shows that signal chain, clearly labeling it as 4:2:2. I thought I posted a correction somewhere in the XDCAM forum after finding that out.

-gb-

Everything I heard initially was that this camera would offer 4:2:0 colorspace with a maximum bit rate of 35mb. This seemed to fit with Sony's current crop of HD stuff, offering a "low end" (cheaper with less quality), a "medium" (higher quality and a bit more cost) and a "high end" (very expensive but with very high quality). This is kind of the model that most video manufacturers use and it would be kind of surprising to see that changed.

However, I have been hearing rumors and hints that there may be more "surprises" in store before the XDCAM EX is released. So who really knows? I will say this, if for some reason Sony DOES put in 50mb 4:2:2 colorpace.....they will have a really hard time keeping this thing in stock anywhere.

I can't help but feel that a 50mbit palmcorder would bastardize sales of their own corporate / lowend-pro cameras.

If this thing does record 4:2:2 50mbit then it will be a better camera than the (more expensive) F330.

Surely no company in their right mind would redirect potential customers to an item with a lower margin?

hi there

This camera certainly seems to tick a lot of boxes as an advancement for the Z1..(which depite it's progessive chips, I never considered the V1 was... smaller 1/4" chips, smaller, more fiddly controls, step back for LCD placement etc)
I would however echo the reservations about it's size... the Z1 is heavy, once you add mic, large battery, mattebox etc... I use mine with a shoulder mount...but it is very front heavy.

While I love the form announced, which looks absolutely outstanding, I'd love it in shoulder form, or even semi-shoulder like say an XL2. but I guess they don't want to step on the ground of the current XDcam's... They are however out of my price bracket.

I do see though they have an HDV shoulder cam in the works too, which was one of my queries a few months back... While I doubt it will equal the quality of the XDcam EX, if it's a progressive Z1 in a shoulder mount body that may well do me..

Exciting times...

cheers
Gareth

What makes this here Sony beautiful is:

- 1/2" chips
- saves to flash cards!
- 4:2:0 is fine for green screen
- under 8k

Sony has finally woken up. This might be (finally) the first under 10k cam that's as good as super16mm film.

Bounce pass to Canon and Panny in the corner...will they put up a three or travel out of bounds...

I would however echo the reservations about it's size... the Z1 is heavy, once you add mic, large battery, mattebox etc... I use mine with a shoulder mount...but it is very front heavy.



What shoulder mount do you use?

Thanks,
Scott

hi there


I do see though they have an HDV shoulder cam in the works too, which was one of my queries a few months back... While I doubt it will equal the quality of the XDcam EX, if it's a progressive Z1 in a shoulder mount body that may well do me..

Exciting times...

cheers
Gareth

What HDV shoulder cam are you referring to??

See the following: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91617

What HDV shoulder cam are you referring to??
Scott, I use the Cavision shoulder mount with a Manfrotto Universal mount... This way I can swap it easily onto my Libec LS38 tripod with the same mount... Not ideal but works fine..... Camera is still very front heavy though!!!

Ray: Check out Boyd's post for info on the HDV shoulder cam...

I'm looking forward to this one..

regards
Gareth

Regarding the "hidden surprises" to be revealed, I'm sure hoping for 4 channels of audio and TC in/out.

I have held off on buying anything video and photo related short of an HD and some memory cards, specifically for this camera. I am all over it when it is announced. bye bye tape!

he he... Scott you better start buying those 500gb drives for archiving
before you get this cam.... :-)