When will we see a new prosumer cam in the $2-$4k range from Sony or Canon?
 

Title says it all. The FX7, while a nice affordable camcorder, is older technology (no Exmor Cmos?, larger chips, xy color, etc.). Plus, it seems to be getting a little harder to find. The Canon A1 is the other choice, and I am considering that also, but again, advances in tech. could be added.

Sony and others are blanketing the market with low cost consumer cams and high cost (to me) prosumer cams, but the middle is left high and dry.

So, Sony, Canon, are there plans for new "mid-range" ($2-4k) prosumer camcorders coming down the pipeline?

I want my new camcorder by June. So far it will be the FX7 or the A1, but if something new comes out with improvements, I could be persuaded.

Thanks,
Mike

would be nice with a 20X zoom or better also

dream on...inflation has take its toll.
my take on things are this:
a >10,000--best of the product, probably only affordable by commercial movie studios or TV stations

b >5000 x <10000--"prosummer, event videographer, small indie
c <1000 x <5000--consumer level, event videographer, advanced student
d <1000---aunt mabel, entry level

Interesting how the levels go thru inflationary steps, When I was a kid, I worried about getting $100 for and English Raleigh bicycle.

Is it inflation (electronics have historically gone DOWN in price), or a very weak U.S. dollar?

I'd love to see a replacement for the V1, with 1/3" Exmors and a fixed lens at under $4k.

As long as this is Area 51... ;-)

My guess is a little of both.
Your right, electronics trend downward in price.
But as they do so, the real hardware, i.e. optics, become a bigger and bigger percentage of the total. And those things have been trending up in price. Or am I wrong?

I'm hoping to see an update of the Canon XH-A1 with:
1. Dual Compact Flash slots with auto-rollover recording. Tape is gone.
2. Options for higher bit rates, less compression.
3. Time lapse options.

With all the new product Sony has been rolling out, Canon is going to need a strong responce.

I'm guessing you will find out at NAB.

I don't think the answer is that simple. For the features offered, overall, the trend has been downward. But even if the costs of raw materials and production have increased, manufacturers have been trying to reduce costs through better designs, cheaper materials (ideally, where it doesn't matter), and elimination of expensive mechanical components (e.g., tape drives). Optics may be costly, yet every camera needs a lens, and the manufacturers seem to introduce a new lens with each new camera. This leads me to believe that they are constantly refining lens design.

I can be wrong. It has happened before. Sometimes I'm even glad.

But looking at the sub $1000 market, or now even the lowend pro sub $2000 market, I believe a slow shrinking of the actual size (diameter) of the lens has been going on for some time, and I am sure it is a cost reduction measure. I don't see that as an improvement to the lens as it has an obvious impact on its ability to gather light.

Yes, there are other trends to reduce cost. Getting rid of tape drives and replacing them with flash memory is a very obvious one. Another possibility would be to go from a 3 x 1/3" imager design to a single 1/2" imager design. But somehow I don't expect to see that. I would really like to be wrong :-)

I guess it depends on the market segment. For consumer cams Panasonic is sticking to three-chip designs, but making hellishly small chips, a trend that may partly explain the shrinking lens diameters (as well as lengths). However, in the prosumer segment a new development may portend a shift to larger sensors: in the accelerating convergence of still and video camera technology, Sony's 1/1.8-inch CMOS chip, the IMX017CQE, is being used in Casio's Exilim Pro EX-F1 (a still camera) and Samsung's SC-HMX20C (a video camera).

I would think that since the CCD gap is now gone (same CCD's) between the canon XL and the A1 series cams, I would think the next logical step would be for the next series in the A1/G1 body form will have removeable lenses for sure. And since sony has done removemable lenses recently in this body format I would think it shouldn't be too long, maybe like this time next year we may be hearing some noises. The removeable lens in a compact form seems to be a niche that Sony is trying to steal from Canon, so Canon is gonna need to respond fairly soon. Beyond that, they could add tapelessness to everything and maybe go CMOS with the CCds etc.. There do seem to be some reasons for a new wave of cams.

Well, I see on the B&H site that the FX7 is "Discontinued". That means they are no longer carrying it in stock, or that Sony is no longer producing it.
Could this be the first real clue to Sony bringing out a replacement for the FX7?

Mike

FX7 gone? I just checked B&H and only the PAL model is listed. The NTSC version is nowhere to be found.
I actually like my little FX7, sad to see it go, but excited that something better should be coming along to fill the void.
They didn't make these very long if it is gone. Are they still producing the FX1?

**EDIT**
I just tried another major online retailer and it's not their either. Hmm.

I'd love to see a Canon or a Sony recording HDV on CF card but tapeless and the size of the Sony A1U, I'd like the lense to 28-192 and have a 8 megpixels photo function..and of course for below $3000. (in fact I hope Canon would do it, it be a perfect companion for my Canon A1 and a great travel camera).

You mean something like this?

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665291500

Due to ship around mid-March with a $1200 price tag.

Has the Exmor CMOS sensors, x-v colorspace, plus a lot of other goodies.

-gb-

I wonder what the resell value will be in 2 months :( I hope I can still get some money out of it in 2 months.

Monday,
Give me a call after NAB. I'll give you $5 for it.
No really though, drop me a line after NAB to see if I'm still in the market. I just might be.

Wasn't the FX7 announced or released the summer of 2006? Two years is a fairly short life cycle of these types of cameras.

That made my day Ethan (^_^) ROFL!!!

I believe it was released in November of 2006. Not even 2 years and it's discontinued. 1 and a half years short lived. I do wonder if sony has something else in stored for the consumer division. Anyways I'll hit you up after NAB Ethan

In all fairness we don't officially know it's been discontinued, it's just not currently available or listed on some of the larger online camera retailer websites.

It's the end of the FX7 :( Still considering your $5 offer (^_^)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...&O=&sku=459129

All I could find on B&H was the PAL version. Whatever.
I'll gladly buy a second FX7 for $5. Heck, I might even go as high as $50.

$50 do I hear $51? In all seriousness though I guess the cam didn't perform well in sales. I tried looking for it on sony site and it's not there and now seeing the discontinued ad on the bhphoto page I'm bummed out. I do hope the next consumer cam they come out with if any is created the same way the fx1 was created. 3 CCD/CMOS sensors that are 1/3" or greater. As the original poster said between $2k-$4k.

1/3" or greater would be very nice thank you. Tapeless would be ok... but this is Sony so we'll either have memory stick duo (small gb size, higher price over the competition) or SxS which is kinda pricey for a FX7 replacement camera. Do you think they stick with tape for one more model revision cycle?
I wonder if HDV is going the way of the dodo and this FX replacement will go AVCHD? If it does they had better give it 17mbps or higher top end bitrate. At this point I'd actually like to see HDV stick around for another year or two while processing power gets faster and NLE's support AVCHD better before sinking some $$ in one of those guys.
To be honest, I'm actually getting tired of the endless cycle of "what will they release next".

And Monday, my offer now stands at $55.

Well, my friend has an FX7 and I was saving to get one also, so we could combine our footage onto one DVD (via Pinnacle 10.8). But if I get a cam that does AVCHD, will I still be able to combine my footage with my friends HDV footage and edit it all on Pinnacle?

Maybe I should just up the offer to Monday $56.

Mike

(^_^)!!!!!!! So now we're at $56. I would just need to come up with a additional $3,944 to get my dream cam if it ever comes.

Monday,
What camera are you thinking of buying for $4,000? That price doesn't fit many cameras I know. Expecting something at NAB?

I was just thinking, if the FX7 really is gone, then wouldn't that mean the same for the V1u since they essentially have the same lens, imagers, processors, whatnot. I'm still having a hard time believing that Sony would kill these guys off so quickly.

***EDIT***
sorry, just re-read your post and you're talking about a camera that isn't out yet. Nevermind, I'm a moron.
Oh, and I'll now give you $57

Well the V1U is still in stock and available at B&H and other dealers. I do believe the V1 has a good market it has come across. People don't like the Big size of the Z1 EX1 and Z7 so they'd prefer the V1 in that instance but it doesn't transfer that well to the FX7. It's a good camera that has a very good hdv encoder, much better than the FX1 but that wasn't good enough. Going to 1/4" chips killed it in my opinion. I'm hoping they bring out a FX something very similar to the Z7 with non-removeable lens but it includes the CF recorder and is under $4,000. That would be sweet other wise I'm looking at Scarlet and the new Panasonic camcorder. We're now at $57 do I hear $58.

Monday

But my point is that the FX7 and the V1u have the same 1/4" chips and encoder. Why would the FX7 not do well, but the V1u would? Sony has long done this with their cameras. The VX2000 was the "consumer" version of the PD150, the Fx1 was the "consumer" version of the Z1u and the FX7 was the "consumer" version of the V1u. Underneath the shell they were the exact same camera, the "pro" models offered XLR inputs and had a little more custom image control and a few more options enabled, but the imaging parts of the camera (CCD/CMOS chips, encoder) are the same. The biggest difference between the V1u and FX7 is the fact that Sony enabled the V1u to shoot 24p. Is this the factor that made the V1u a success and the FX7 get cut?

All I'm saying is that if the cameras are essentially the same, releasing a FX7 replacement means they must do the same for the V1u unless they break their long standing tradition of having the same basic guts in a "pro" and "consumer" camera.

Scarlet - whatever. When Red decides to tell us anything at all about it, then I'll say something. Till then forget it, it's pointless. I'm close to being a Red fan-boy, but their marketing is beginning to annoy me a bit. I'll save that rant for another day.

Now that new Panasonic really has my interest. I don't like a lot of what I've seen from AVCHD, and really don't like what I've heard about editing it native, but if this camera offers a higher bit-rate option that looks decent, if the encoder is new and improved and the major NLE's can handle AVCHD a bit better this coming year, then the HMC150 will be high on my list of cameras I'll be looking at. I'm very excited about the prospects of recording to inexpensive media since I do event work and would like to avoid dumping cards in the field. I'd much rather have a pocket full of cheap SD cards to shoot on all day. It's touted at the DXV replacement by Panasonic themselves, and we all know how wonderful that camera was. If this thing is the HD equivalent of the DVX, then I'm really, really going to take a long hard look at it.

And my offer stands firm at $57

I hear what your saying Ethan. I do believe as you stated the 24p made the difference between the 2 cams. Many people weren't very happy when the V1 was announced having 1/4" chips. I remember reading those posts here on DVinfo. They were saying they need 1/3" chips minimum. So some went the XHA1 route and some went the V1 route and some decided to wait. Not many went the FX7 route because of the lack of 24p and the camera having smaller chips. The FX1 has better lowlight more manual controls on the outside of the cam and not menu driven as heavily as the FX7 and the big difference for me which drives me crazy sometimes is the rolling shutter when I have flash photography near the cam. The partial exposure kills me. I do know people who have purchased the FX7 because of pure size but that isn't a very big market at all. Not sure what's going through sony's mind with the cam but the v1 has definitely performed better in sales or else it would be discontinued as well. It's a pity the FX7 was short lived. I hope it becomes a collectors item.

The panasonic avchd cam is very intriguing and I can't wait to get more info about it as NAB draws near.

Scarlet: well I agree with you but I still would like to see what it's all about but we're given no info till NAB.

$57 going once. $57 Going twice

I see where the price of any FX7s still around from the most popular and reputable dealers is really shooting up big time. And no sign of anything from Sony about a replacement. I am so bummed out.

Mike

Let's wait for NAB. A videog from another board mentioned that he is suppose to be doing a shootout with sony reps at NAB with numerous sony cams and another new one. He has said nothing else, no hints, just another cam. Here's hoping that they create a consumer model from it that has 1/3 inch chips at least. Interested in a FX7 Mike? (^_^) offer is at $57 (inflation value $1,900)

If all else fails, I may just take you up on that offer.

Mike

Monday,
Oh no you don't. $1900??? I belive the highest bid is $57... can't suddenly jump it to $1900.

I'm still in the market.

(^_^)!!!!!!! Ethan you still get the deal we talked about after NAB. If for some reason the sale falls through, I'll let it go for $1900 or less probably.

Monday, please remember that I am also still in the market if Ethan drops out.

Mike

Hey Mike your definitely second on the list. $1800 sounds good?

Interesting that the only prosumer model at the Sonystyle outlet is the FX7. Either they are sitting on a ton of reburbished returns or they are marking new units as refurbished to blow them out. Early march they were near $2000 now they've gone up $500.

I'm off to my first NAB the HMC-150 and Scarlet are high on my list of things to see. If the new panny comes in as rumored at $3,500 it will be interesting to see Sony's response. The Z1 and A1 prices don't seem to have come down in the last two years. My A1U cost less new from B&H 2 years ago than it does now and I got a $500 rebate that is now only $300.

I sure wouldn't object if Sony dropped the price of the Z7 to match the $3500 Panasonic price!

Well I guess the only options we have is still a FX1 Canon A1 The Panasonic HMC-150 and Scarlet. Ethan you still want the FX7? I'ma upgrade it to another FX1 :( since there\'s nothing new to catch my attention. I really need that extra stop of low light.

Hi Monday,

I might be interested by your FX7. Could you email me with the details? : messier_phil@yahoo.ca

Thx

Philippe

EDIT: IF Mike is not interested anymore. I don\'t want to steal is priority.

I\'d be happy with a 3 1/3" CMOS, fixed lens XDCAM EX that records to compact flash.