Canon XL-H2- when?

Matt Davis · July 4th, 2009, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

there's absolutely no hint coming from Canon, which makes me think there really is no surprise on the horizon, and that they'll just stick to XL-H1 and EOS 5d for now.

Although I'm not a Canon fanboy, there's enough proof out there that they're very much into slow steady evolution, with some huge - nay, massive - spikes of innovation.

The XL1 was pretty ground breaking and then evolved gently over time. I remember writing up a glass box 'mock up' of a new camera (what became the XL-H1) as a cruel 'tickle' by merely spraying an XL2 black and putting a few blue LEDs on it.

It's got to be evolutionary or just a whole new ballpark. And in a recession, I guess evolution is safe. Are we really ready for an EOS based camera? It's a clever thing, but the footage has got lots of issues, the workflow isn't nice, the ergonomics aren't thought through, I don't think there's a big enough market for it to do 'properly' yet.

So erm, yes. Like what Steve said.

Michael Galvan · July 6th, 2009, 01:53 PM

Yes, I think as filmmakers, we can't help but get excited about a new high-end camera from Canon that uses a form of the 5D Sensor technology.

But looking at who the XL series is aimed at, we are only a certain percentage of their overall market. Imagine the issues that having a sensor like that size will cause for event videographers or for anyone who need deep depth of field.

Though I think a large APS-C sensor is a possibility for the next camera, I wouldn't be surprised if they just moved up to 1/2" chips (or 2/3") also.

I guess we just wait and see ...

Steve Phillipps · July 6th, 2009, 02:03 PM

One thing that is likely I assume is that any new sensor will be CMOS. Not keen on this trend, it allows a high spec for small money, but with some serious corners cut.
Steve

Matthew Nayman · July 7th, 2009, 07:01 AM

I work at a job where interactions with Canon folks are an everyday occurence... We have been told that an XL-H2 (though that might not be it's final name) will be a shoulder mounted, full frame sensor(almost identical to 5Dmk2) which takes EF lenses and records 50m/bit. Was originally an October release, but the poor market has pushed the announcment back to January.

I don't know if I like the idea of shooting with EF lenses, as they have no power zoom, etc... but I think this is a film makers camera, not an ENG camera. It's designed to be used with Prime lenses, follow focuses, and short zooms. I don't think they're making it for the 20X zoom set. They are building it for the people who will buy a scarlet or red, and who bough the 5D mk2 for the video. It might be misguided, but I am almost certain that's what's going to happen.

I could be wrong, as nothing is ever 100%, but the folks who have relayed this info to me are generally in-the-know... There may another XLH2 model being built as a direct 1/3 or 1/2 inch replacement, but this fullframe shoulder-style camera will most likely happen.

They might be killing themselves on lenses though... I would buy a nikon adapter and shoot nikon. Or try and find a way to hook up PL lenses (though they project a small image)...

I guess we'll see what happens :)

Chris Hurd · July 7th, 2009, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Nayman

We have been told... full frame sensor(almost identical to 5Dmk2) which takes EF lenses... I don't know if I like the idea of shooting with EF lenses, as they have no power zoom, etc... I don't think they're making it for the 20X zoom set.

If they go that route, I think they would have to do at least one powered zoom lens, which would obviously be the kit lens. Probably some existing EF lens with internal focus (and not one of the pull-type zooms such as the 28-300mm) adapted to a motor.

Matthew Nayman · July 7th, 2009, 08:05 AM

I actually also heard they may be retooling the 24-105 F4 for a lens motor, but I think that is rumor. they might need to introduce a new line of full-frame, motor lenses... This is all speculation, of course, but the camera, I am almost certain, is a reality...

Chris Hurd · July 7th, 2009, 11:53 AM

The 24-105mm L IS is an excellent lens, in my opinion it's the perfect multi-purpose L-series lens. But it has only a 4x zoom ratio, fine for photography and cinematography but somewhat short for videography (I was thinking they'd want at least a 5x).

If they offer a low-ratio zoom, what do you want to bet that it'll be marketed as EF and other still lenses are, that is, advertised in terms of focal length in millimeters, leaving the zoom ratio out completely. Which is fine with me, by the way. But it'll be an interesting transition from "a 20x lens" to a "24-105mm lens" (or whatever it ends up being). They will want to avoid drawing attention to a low zoom ratio. However I can't see how it would be practical or affordable with anything but a low zoom ratio.

Scott Webster · July 7th, 2009, 03:26 PM

Chris,

But if Canon went with a straight PL mount camera and worked with Birger Engineering and Viewfactor Studios, they would have a working EF mount and focus solution from launch.

Birger Mount Overview on Vimeo

Now having said that both Birger and Viewfactor have had a very rocky road in getting products to market for the Red. Think years, not months.

Matthew's post does concur with the floor gossip at Broadcast Asia:

PL Mount
Full Frame
Shoulder Mount
50m/bit
End of 2009 release

Chris Hurd · July 7th, 2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Webster

But if Canon... worked with Birger Engineering and Viewfactor Studios...

Anything's possible, sure, but the scenario you describe here would be the rare exception to Canon's modus operandi.

Matthew Nayman · July 8th, 2009, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Webster

Matthew's post does concur with the floor gossip at Broadcast Asia:

PL Mount

I do not see how a PL mount can work though... most PL lenses project a 35mm diagonal image, not the 50mm needed for full frame...

Jacques Mersereau · July 8th, 2009, 01:13 PM

I would agree with Mr. Hurd. Canon wants to sell Canon glass. If they went with a PL mount they would then surely have to also make or include an adapter for Canon. My guess is that Canon will provide a Canon EF mount and then let someone else make the PL adapter for it and not get all the headaches that might be involved therein.

So, back to the main question, WHEN? I get the economic depression thing, but a much better reason for such a delay is to market a viable 35mm camcorder that is pretty solid out of the box for a price point about or not much more than the XL-H1.

In regards to a 35mm motorized lens with auto focus etc. surely Canon can do this in a heartbeat. The only real question is how much will it cost as to how good the images are it produces.
IMHO, if Canon provides real value for a given price, they will come out well; very well.

Jacques

Scott Webster · July 8th, 2009, 03:53 PM

Jacques, I don't think this camera is a replacement for the XL-H nor at it's price point.
The remarks were more "Forget everything that has gone before"

If they do go with an EF mount, is it acceptable to just expect users to make do with DSLR lenses? Or can we expect a new range of Cine standard EF primes and Zooms? Wouldn't that be a bigger undertaking than the camera itself?

And if you look at the 'Zeiss Compact' set of cine primes you are looking at 40k for what are re-housed Zeiss ZF still lenses.

Chris Hurd · July 8th, 2009, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Webster

If they do go with an EF mount, is it acceptable to just expect users to make do with DSLR lenses?

In my opinion, no that is not acceptable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Webster

Or can we expect a new range of Cine standard EF primes and Zooms? Wouldn't that be a bigger undertaking than the camera itself?

Well... they already have a 2/3rd-inch series of Cine lenses: http://www.usa.canon.com/html/indust...hure_10.08.pdf

and http://www.usa.canon.com/html/indust...le%20Pages.pdf

Michael Galvan · July 9th, 2009, 09:29 AM

There's no way the mount on this camera will be anything but a Canon mount.

It's like putting an EOS mount on a Nikon camera.

I agree ... a PL mount adapter will be made, but probably from a third party ...

Bryan Gilchrist · July 18th, 2009, 07:30 PM

I think with the market the way it is manufacturers have scaled back production of new gear.

Videographers, DP's, and production companies are having trouble finding work...why would they buy new gear?

July 6th, 2009, 01:53 PM	#17
Michael Galvan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 775	Yes, I think as filmmakers, we can't help but get excited about a new high-end camera from Canon that uses a form of the 5D Sensor technology. But looking at who the XL series is aimed at, we are only a certain percentage of their overall market. Imagine the issues that having a sensor like that size will cause for event videographers or for anyone who need deep depth of field. Though I think a large APS-C sensor is a possibility for the next camera, I wouldn't be surprised if they just moved up to 1/2" chips (or 2/3") also. I guess we just wait and see ... __________________ www.michaelgalvan.com www.screenanthology.com

July 7th, 2009, 11:53 AM	#22
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	The 24-105mm L IS is an excellent lens, in my opinion it's the perfect multi-purpose L-series lens. But it has only a 4x zoom ratio, fine for photography and cinematography but somewhat short for videography (I was thinking they'd want at least a 5x). If they offer a low-ratio zoom, what do you want to bet that it'll be marketed as EF and other still lenses are, that is, advertised in terms of focal length in millimeters, leaving the zoom ratio out completely. Which is fine with me, by the way. But it'll be an interesting transition from "a 20x lens" to a "24-105mm lens" (or whatever it ends up being). They will want to avoid drawing attention to a low zoom ratio. However I can't see how it would be practical or affordable with anything but a low zoom ratio. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 8th, 2009, 01:13 PM	#26
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	I would agree with Mr. Hurd. Canon wants to sell Canon glass. If they went with a PL mount they would then surely have to also make or include an adapter for Canon. My guess is that Canon will provide a Canon EF mount and then let someone else make the PL adapter for it and not get all the headaches that might be involved therein. So, back to the main question, WHEN? I get the economic depression thing, but a much better reason for such a delay is to market a viable 35mm camcorder that is pretty solid out of the box for a price point about or not much more than the XL-H1. In regards to a 35mm motorized lens with auto focus etc. surely Canon can do this in a heartbeat. The only real question is how much will it cost as to how good the images are it produces. IMHO, if Canon provides real value for a given price, they will come out well; very well. Jacques __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

July 9th, 2009, 09:29 AM	#29
Michael Galvan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 775	There's no way the mount on this camera will be anything but a Canon mount. It's like putting an EOS mount on a Nikon camera. I agree ... a PL mount adapter will be made, but probably from a third party ... __________________ www.michaelgalvan.com www.screenanthology.com

July 6th, 2009, 02:03 PM	#18
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	One thing that is likely I assume is that any new sensor will be CMOS. Not keen on this trend, it allows a high spec for small money, but with some serious corners cut. Steve

July 7th, 2009, 07:01 AM	#19
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	I work at a job where interactions with Canon folks are an everyday occurence... We have been told that an XL-H2 (though that might not be it's final name) will be a shoulder mounted, full frame sensor(almost identical to 5Dmk2) which takes EF lenses and records 50m/bit. Was originally an October release, but the poor market has pushed the announcment back to January. I don't know if I like the idea of shooting with EF lenses, as they have no power zoom, etc... but I think this is a film makers camera, not an ENG camera. It's designed to be used with Prime lenses, follow focuses, and short zooms. I don't think they're making it for the 20X zoom set. They are building it for the people who will buy a scarlet or red, and who bough the 5D mk2 for the video. It might be misguided, but I am almost certain that's what's going to happen. I could be wrong, as nothing is ever 100%, but the folks who have relayed this info to me are generally in-the-know... There may another XLH2 model being built as a direct 1/3 or 1/2 inch replacement, but this fullframe shoulder-style camera will most likely happen. They might be killing themselves on lenses though... I would buy a nikon adapter and shoot nikon. Or try and find a way to hook up PL lenses (though they project a small image)... I guess we'll see what happens :)

July 7th, 2009, 08:05 AM	#21
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	I actually also heard they may be retooling the 24-105 F4 for a lens motor, but I think that is rumor. they might need to introduce a new line of full-frame, motor lenses... This is all speculation, of course, but the camera, I am almost certain, is a reality...

July 7th, 2009, 03:26 PM	#23
Scott Webster Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 136	Chris, But if Canon went with a straight PL mount camera and worked with Birger Engineering and Viewfactor Studios, they would have a working EF mount and focus solution from launch. Birger Mount Overview on Vimeo Now having said that both Birger and Viewfactor have had a very rocky road in getting products to market for the Red. Think years, not months. Matthew's post does concur with the floor gossip at Broadcast Asia: PL Mount Full Frame Shoulder Mount 50m/bit End of 2009 release

July 8th, 2009, 03:53 PM	#27
Scott Webster Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 136	Jacques, I don't think this camera is a replacement for the XL-H nor at it's price point. The remarks were more "Forget everything that has gone before" If they do go with an EF mount, is it acceptable to just expect users to make do with DSLR lenses? Or can we expect a new range of Cine standard EF primes and Zooms? Wouldn't that be a bigger undertaking than the camera itself? And if you look at the 'Zeiss Compact' set of cine primes you are looking at 40k for what are re-housed Zeiss ZF still lenses.

July 18th, 2009, 07:30 PM	#30
Bryan Gilchrist Major Player Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 224	I think with the market the way it is manufacturers have scaled back production of new gear. Videographers, DP's, and production companies are having trouble finding work...why would they buy new gear?