Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Yup, I'm getting out my crop and gonna start to beat on this ol' dead CANON horse once again.

As most of us are aware, there exists a chasm between RED and say the EX3 * (*Timur footnote).
The Sony F3 has appeared, and I would assume since they are back ordered at BH, that F3s have found a place and are selling. I love the idea of buying an F3, and it produces the images I want,
but since it does not meet the new DCI spec (2K@48fps min), it doesn't make my 'must to into debt' to have list.
RED? $25K for a R1 - $58K for EPIC?!!! (What happened JJ? $8K price increase? Too much - Yikes!)
SCARLET? So far, it doesn't blow my skirt up.

I call out to CANON, there is a BIG MARKET for a camera here and a place to sell YOUR GLASS!
WHEN, OH WHEN are you going to step up? You too can sell a camera _body_ for $13K and come out with a new line of Cine Lens to make lots more money.

The market is waiting.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

From what I understand you'll be able to record 1080p60 with the F3 using an external recorder and dual link SDI.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

That would be nice, but this is the first I have heard of it.
Even if true it would still not meet the 2K resolution spec.
So, I would repeat my call to Canon to _deliver_ a 35mm video camera similar to the RED ONE.
This is certainly within Canon's capability.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

1080p is only 80 pixels short of 2k. I doubt you would be penalized for shooting 1080p. Its 1.92k instead of 2k.

There is something coming from canon. No amount of questioning at NAB could get a straight answer out of them.

Based on how they did answer my questions I expect it will be 1.92k aka 1080p.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

1920x1080 24p will surely be acceptable for the next three years, which is pretty much the lifespan of a camera body these days.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

The variation in the screen tabs (or screen size) at the theatre would cover those 80 pixels. Many feature films are shot 1080p, so I wouldn't worry too much about those pixels.

The only large sensor camera Canon have shown is a 4k hair dryer styled design, which could've just been a mock up.

In the end, I'm not sure that Canon can make a large sensor video camera for less than other manufacturers. Especially if you want specialised frame rates like 48, which seem to be used for 3D at present.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

The hairdryer camera didn't have a particularly large sensor. If I'm not mistaken, it was 2/3-inch, which seems a little small for 4K.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Sorry, 2/3"

http://www.dvinfo.net/optical-scienc...anon-expo.html

I imagine the trade off for 4k will be sensitivity and noise.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Perfect, a turtle race between RED EPIC S and CANON 4K. Maybe there's another 35mm high res. contender out there working away that could scoop the market - JVC, SI, Nikon, Hitachi, Hassleblad, or ?

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

JVC has been showing early prototypes of what it calls 4K2K, which is not real 4K but actually QuadHD (3,840 x 2,160). It's purportedly working on consumer (think smallish-sensor) models. Other than the somewhat silly hairdryer concept, Canon has been pretty quiet lately about its forward-looking tech.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Speaking of which, whatever happened to the JVC Falcon Brid?

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Ahhh...finally. Someone else as annoyed as I am that Canon hasn't stepped up in a big way. With Nikon, panny and Sony joining the dslr race, I think that ship is sailing fast. Those of us who have had to deal with moire and aliasing issues are ready to move up to the fs100/f3/af100 but have tons of Canon glass need a solution better than a third party adapter! And I stopped holding my breath for Red many years ago. I don't even care about the price increases with the scarlet/epic s. Just release the damn thing and sell a crapload of them!!!
Canon needs to do two things...release the big brother to the xf300/305 with interchangeable lens options but same sensor/codec...say for $5k body only.

And release a cinema camera based on the 5D sensor or larger. Needs to be 3k or 4k capable and 4:4:4. Make it work with existing dslr glass but then introduce a line of lenses (set of primes and a couple of zooms) specific to the camera. Have it record lower bit rates and sizes to cf but have a slot for removeable ss drives for full blown quality. Make the body $10k, with set of lenses and ss drive, $20k.
It's a big dream but we have to start somewhere!!

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

I don't understand the fascination with full-frame 35 mm. It certainly isn't like regular 35-mm film's imaging area. It's comparable to VistaVision. I would think that for most applications, DOF would be too shallow.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

I'm not a technical person so don't know the ramifications of using the 5D sensor in a cinema camera...seems that the extra size would be needed for 4k. And to me I just wanted to rant about Canon being behind the game again...BUT...they were also late in my opinion bringing out the XF series. Sony and Panny had their cams in that genre out long before...Canon did it right though and maybe that's what's happening here. They may wait to see what the af100, fs100, and f3 concerns are and then kick Sony and Panny's butts!!

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

It doesn't seem the extra size is necessary, given that the 7D's APS-C-sized sensor is already more than 5K
(5,184 x 3,456).

The cameras you mentioned are all 1080p, so they obviously don't meet your >3K requirement. Also, while the FS100 supposedly can do 4:4:4, its output is only 8-bit, as is that of the AF100, which additionally can do "only" 4:2:2. I expect to see prosumer 4K within a few years. As mentioned earlier, JVC may come close with its 4K2K (QuadHD) offering, but it looks to be a smallish sensor. I just don't expect Canon to be first, although I really can't adequately explain why Canon is so slow.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Why make a video camera based on a 5D sensor with all it's issues with moire and skew? That sensor line dumps to achieve HD, so not all the pixels are used anyway.

I think you're asking for a rather specialised camera with those specifications, although you may get it with the Epic S. The FF 35 is unnecessary and brings a lot of disadvantages regrading the size of zoom lenses. This is a topic been discussed on a number of FS100 and F3 threads where people are running into problems with the Super 35 frame.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

You're right...I am asking for a specialized camera. From my time in this profession, Ive come to realize there is no be-all, end-all solution camera-wise. Once again, I'm not specifically calling out the 5D sensor as my ideal, meant it as an example.
What I want is an interchangeable lens large sensor camera without the issues discussed specifically for interviews and b-roll that I can use my Canon lenses on and have control over them in camera. The Epic S seems great but every time I fold the spec sheet into the shape of a camera, i cant get it to record anything, let alone power up and show me a picture :)

For certain shots, my xf300 is perfect. Its such an easy camera to use and makes great video. The 7D has it's place too but i find myself running into the moire and aliasing almost every time i use it which sucks. What I love about it is the size and the choice of lenses I have. I also do a fair amount of photography so it will remain in my stable for a long time.

Arrrrgh...gonna stop whining and go make more money with what I have! Clients love what I do and that's all that's important in the end.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

I would expect that a big chip video camera from Canon would use the 7D sized chip, not the 5D....its too big (vista vision size as was pointed out). Every year, manufacturers make better chips that hold more pixels so if they can get 4K out of a 2/3" chip, they should be able to get a lot more into a 7D sized chip.

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Heck, after what seems like a THOUSAND YEARS, I'd expect Canon to produce a new sensor that produces 4K and works perfectly with Canon 35mm glass without any magnification or vignetting.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Just be patient friends... something is coming down the pipeline from Canon soon enough.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Michael, do you have any insight? I already lost faith and ordered the FS100.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Yes, but cannot say anything at this point, I'm sorry.

Just know that something is coming from Canon. I apologize I cannot say more.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Sheesh! You've just set your self up for a barrage of messages methinks!

Actually, if there really was a new Canon 35 in the pipeline you'd probably be best sending the info straight to wikileaks (it would be the most secretive and interesting piece of info Julian Assange would ever break!).

But seriously, as a fellow long time Canon aficionado; how much longer are we expected to wait? I've been doing the math, looking at the pros and cons of the FS100, F3, and the AF100, and it looks like I'll be jumping ship to Panasonic in the near future.

Unless.....

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

You're totally right! Why say anything when I can't say anything, lol.

Let's forget I ever posted anything... sorry again.

On another note, how's that mini35 treating you Simon?

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Depressing story that - my friend injured his shoulder. Normal enough occurrence, but as he works for the UN he's on full pay leave until he recovers. I dont think he's in too much of a rush to come back to Uganda so the package is still sat there in New Jersey!

I'm trying to figure an alternative method to get it out, I'll probably just bite the bullet and have it DHL'd if it drags on much longer.

Still, as a Canon user I'm well used to long waits ;)

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Michael is right though.

I can't say where I got my info either other than to say its NOT hearsay. :D

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Of course, the RUMOR is that the MK III is about to come out.
Sssshhh, this is "Area 51". :^D

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

There have been plenty of rumors, including a $6-8K model and a $20K-ish model, code-named Yamato.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

The Yamato? Really? Hahaha, The name comes from the monster Battleship with 18" guns. USA's battlewagons 'only' had 16" guns that still shoot a shell the weight of a VW sixteen miles. The Yamato 18" made ours look small. Canon's Yamato camera, in order to keep with Japanese tradition, would have to be a 10K sensor that's capable of 300 fps at full rez. This could be good.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

That Yamato rumor is nearly a year old though. If Canon is working on something you'd imagine they would release some info to that effect; but officially there is nothing. Considering the impact the Canon DSLR's have had on the video production world it really is surprising that Canon hasn't taken the bull it created firmly by the horns.

Still, while this is annoying I guess its a refreshing change from RED's tactics which is to release all kinds of official info about new products and then keep everyone waiting years for something to materialize.

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Yup, it really demonstrates the difference between cultures. The Japanese play their cards close to their chest with every move carefully thought out.
They even check with their Japanese competitors to make sure that what they do stays within the boundaries of good manners and general acceptance. It would be seen as vain and arrogant to over-do it.
I do think the 5DMKII is one place where these rules didn't apply - BY MISTAKE.

Canon appears _to me_ to be a company who is especially traditional in Japanese corporate culture (I could be wrong, but Mr. Hurd has real experience and might chime in).

OTOH, RED, though run by JJ who is an Aussie, follows the tradition of American biz. They may be brash, boastful, arrogant and ambitious, but they are doing things and accomplishing goals that are well beyond the norm. They have changed the movie making world and it is that simple.
It ain't bragging if you can back it up, and so far RED, though behind in delivering their brash predictions, also lets it's customers know what is going on - almost in realtime, even if that is 'too much information' for many who prefer the Japanese style.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

While it's true Sony shows off real prototypes (rather than just pie-in-the-sky concepts) as much as a year in advance (e.g., the F3), Canon doesn't do that. They just don't seem to have Sony's arrogance or penchant for self-aggrandizement.

Also, the Yamato rumor has been debunked, since its alleged specs make no sense. For example, it's said to have three 4K full-frame sensors, which, if true, would make it incompatible with Canon's own cinema lenses (at least without modification). In addition, it's supposed to have a 20-stop dynamic range, which, though possible, is a little far-fetched.

Even if the Yamato were real, the tsunami and earthquakes have set Canon back. Rather than announce such a radical (and arguably nonsensical) design -- and thereby show their hand -- Canon might have decided to postpone announcements until certain they could reasonably meet a stated release date.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Canon's CEO in Japan put out a press release a few weeks ago saying that Canon would be back at full speed by mid June..........Also, Michael! you are a very bad boy!

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

We're past the middle of the month - Oh Canon, where for art thou?

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

I wouldn't expect any sort of announcement until the next major industry trade show... and maybe not even then.

Not sure where that idea came from.

Actually he's every inch an American, born and raised in California.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

I stand corrected Chris - and it make sense as to his "american biz style" (which I like).
Not sure why I thought he was Aussie - my apologies - 'no worries' Jim!

Still, it would appear that the followers of both Canon and Red need to RE-fill their "patience tanks".

What might be the next trade show that Canon *might possibly* have something?

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

Well, I don't know anything, and even if I did, then I couldn't say.

It is notable though that back in September 2005, the very first showing of the XL H1 was at the IBC expo in Amsterdam.

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

"back at full speed" might be somewhat optimistic... although the "recovery" seems to have been going surprisingly well and some things that just weren't in the supply chain seem to be coming through in quantity.

I would imagine job #1 would be re-filling the supply chain on EXISTING product, cash flow and all that...

AFTER that, and whatever cleaup was required, and getting used to working around any power related issues... I'd expect them to be announcing "new" toys.

Keep in mind that unlike here, where camera specs and details of upcoming technology are equivalent to air... it's the average consumer that the companies will be concerned with.

The manufacturer has to keep product on shelves and in front of the "average" buyer, who really isn't probably going to even know half of the details that make something "new and cool". If the consumer walks into the big blue box and the "CanSoNic" ain't on the shelf, they go buy something else - priorites...

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

I was hoping that the delay caused by the disaster would give engineers time to take another step forward. There have been so many wish list and we all have our own. I have looked heavily at the FS 100 and somehow it seems lacking. HDMI 4:2:2 instead of HD/SDI. Is that bad, well I don't know ? 28 mbps, My thinking was that 4:2:2 uncompressed would be more than 28 mbps, how does that work ? And then the lens selection, which way to go ??

We have been through one cycle of "it's new camera season" and then the disaster hit. The still folks are chomping at the bit for 5d III and 1DS MK 4, The XLH1S has long since disappeared from canons site and the PMW EX3 is getting scarce on shelves. It almost feels like there is an enormous hole that needs to be filled, even worse for us shoulder mount people.

I would like a new mid level shoulder mount 1080 60p CF or SDHC memory camcorder, 17 or 20x HD lens, dual cards, plenty of I/O's, an answer to high price batteries, and an image with no CA or funny stuff. And 4:2:2 50mbps internally recordable. But I am no one special and may not get what I want.

Is there a next generation XLH1S or PMW EX3 ??

Re: Canon, where oh where art thou?
 

From the IBC tradeshow exhibitor listing


""Canon, a world leader in imaging technology solutions will proudly be exhibiting at IBC 2011. On show will be a full range of HD broadcast lenses, camcorders and DSLRs.

Canon will also be featuring its 3D solutions, and a number of new products and developments including the new PL-mount cine lenses, which conform to the 4K production standards, the latest Remote Control Pan-Tilt Systems, the new KJ20x8.2B with extender and much more!""