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-   -   Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/area-51/496812-rolling-shutter-free-far-away-dream-consumers-prosumers.html)

Jack Zhang June 5th, 2011 05:57 PM

Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
The plague of rolling shutters, flash banding, skew, and more is infecting like never before...

My planned camera I was supposed to get a year from now is the Canon XH-G1s paired with a nanoFlash. It's practically the only solution to the problem by using older technologies: CCDs.

Now that the G1s is discontinued, (and likely will become rare in a year) this begs the future of skew-free pictures... Will we ever see global shutter CMOS sensors come down in implementation cost so that it can be passed onto the market at an affordable price? Everyone I try to explain as to why CCDs are better always believe technology is only going to get better, but this simply not the case with CMOS and rolling shutters. No matter how fast you make the chip, it's impossible to capture the same place in time if you are scanning down the sensor.

It all seems like a very far away dream right now, because none of the manufacturers are spending R&D on affordable global shutter sensors for the rest of us. Software compensation will never match a true global shutter, so my assumption is that matchmovers nowadays beg for their DOPs to move very slowly if the camera they're using has skew issues.

Sure, consumers don't care, some pros don't care, but there are people in a black hole at the moment that do care about skew and flash banding enough to wish hard for a new CCD camera or a affordable Global Shutter camera. These people either can't afford ENG sized cameras, or they're too big for their needs.

The big question: Will rolling shutters be solved in our lifetimes? You have to wonder why all these cost savings and lack of R&D will not level out so that the R&D creates a good global shutter sensor that is also affordable fast enough.

I do warn that I do not want an argument of "Suck it up" to rise out of this.

Greg Fiske June 6th, 2011 10:46 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Do camera's like the red one have rolling shutter problems? I figure that level of technology will probably be within our reach in 5-10 years.

Jack Zhang June 7th, 2011 07:10 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Yup, even the RED is a rolling shutter. But the speed of that is really fast compared to other cameras. The SI-2K is also a rolling shutter. Just watch all the flash banding in Slumdog Millionare to see what I mean.

5-10 years is technically 50-100 technology years nowadays. It's also a factor of if people care, and right now, lots of people don't, unless they grew up without seeing skew and etc.

Edit: The dream is slightly closer: http://www.viimagic.com/news-press/n...20sensors.html (It's still only one manufacturer. The key is that Canon, Sony and etc need to make their own global shutter sensors that don't increase noise or decrease dynamic range.)

Richard Alvarez June 7th, 2011 07:22 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Right now, it's a limitation that some people are willing to live with, or work around. Like the shutter speed for still cameras and flash photography. (Anything FASTER than 1/60th would lead to half frame flashes). Like the slower panning with 24f cine cameras to keep the judder down. Professional DPs know from experience how fast you can pan the camera.

Eventually, it will get there. The ability is there - it's about Afford-ability.

Chris Medico June 7th, 2011 08:39 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
How long it will take is largely dependent on how much pressure is applied to bring it to a particular market segment. Will your iPhone one day have a global shutter CMOS sensor? Maybe but not any time soon. Will the majority of consumer and lower end professional cameras? I suspect they will but just before your iPhone does. Meaning only slightly sooner than not any time soon. :(

For the majority of video work rolling shutter has little effect on the audiences perception of a quality image. Ultimately if the audience is willing to accept it as good enough those of us (myself included) that don't like rolling shutter artifacts are forced to grin and bear it.

Once cameras that lack those artifacts become available in my market segment I'll immediately vote with my wallet.

Till then watch me grin.

Walter Brokx June 7th, 2011 01:54 PM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Check the Sony PWM-500. 422 Full HD CCD camera.

The 'next chip' is already being developed (can't find the link from over a year ago) : hopefully without rolling shutter.

Jack Zhang June 7th, 2011 03:36 PM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
That camera's too big for some and still in the 20K range which is out of reach for prosumers.

Something sized like the XF300, but uses global shutters (and maybe a proper implementation of 1080p60) would get me buying it in a snap.

Panasonic's getting ever so close with the HPX250. They just need to fix the sensors and add support for their vaporware codec "AVC-Ultra".

Lawrence Bansbach June 29th, 2011 11:16 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang (Post 1656373)
Panasonic's getting ever so close with the HPX250. They just need to fix the sensors and add support for their vaporware codec "AVC-Ultra".

The sensors in the HPX250 are only 1/3-inch. I'd like to see at least 2/3-inch, along with a global shutter. And as for AVC-Ultra, it goes only to 2K at 24p. Panasonic should start thinking of prosumer 4K at at least 60p. And dump the AVCHD for prosumer -- at least have better codec options. Maybe in the AF200.

Jack Zhang June 29th, 2011 12:32 PM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
I'm talking Prosumer equipment. Triple 1/2-inch should be sufficient enough yet still keep the price down. Triple 2/3-inch is currently an impossibility for prosumers in terms of price being under $10000.

4K at 60p is already possible with the newer RED cameras. 4K is it's own class and doesn't deserve high compression schemes at the moment. (only when Broadcast 4K starts would that be an issue)

And AVC-Ultra is currently vaporware. It was one of those talked about codecs that never surfaced again.

Jack Zhang August 7th, 2011 07:00 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Bumping this thread to gauge how back-illuminated (BSI) sensors may have an effect on getting less noise from a global shutter CMOS sensor.

So the NX70 just came out with it's back-illuminated CMOS sensor that promises less noise in low-light. Can this same technology help make global shutter CMOS sensors possible thanks to less noise?

Alen Koebel August 7th, 2011 02:36 PM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Quote:

So the NX70 just came out with it's back-illuminated CMOS sensor that promises less noise in low-light. Can this same technology help make global shutter CMOS sensors possible thanks to less noise?
I assume it could. It should allow the extra transistors required per pixel to be added without reducing the fill factor.

Jack Zhang August 7th, 2011 03:15 PM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Supposedly, rumors are that the upcoming iPhones will have Global Shutter sensors with back-illumination. It's admittingly a different class of sensor size, but it shows there's progress being made.

Jack Zhang October 13th, 2011 04:51 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Rumor debunked. The 4S is coming, but it's still a rolling shutter.

All we can hope for is talk of global shutters upcoming at NAB.

Jack Zhang October 26th, 2012 03:41 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
I just discovered the CMOSIS CMV2000 2/3'' 2048x1088 Global Shutter sensor.

CMV2000 - CMOSIS

Currently the only camera that uses this sensor that has some availability is the IndieGS2K.

IndieCam GS2K

Putting 3 of these sensors in a prism and fitting a good DSP around these is sure to be a winner. To remain open source, use of the DIRAC codec may be an excellent 1080p60 recording solution... (or if it's RAW data fed to a PC, it would be capable of encoding in Avid DNxHD if the codec is installed.)

If we already have a decent Global Shutter 2/3'' sensor, why have Sony and etc still stuck on Rolling Shutters!?!

Jack Zhang October 30th, 2012 12:12 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
WOW. THANK YOU SONY for the F55 with GLOBAL SHUTTER 4K!

If the XAVC codec and the Global Shutter tech propagates down to 2/3'' and 1/2'' cameras and gets cheaper, I'll be very happy.

The F5 unfortunately looks like it's still rolling shutter.

Chris Medico October 30th, 2012 04:36 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
The global shutter looks to be on the F55 but not on the F5.

Jack Zhang October 30th, 2012 09:09 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Which does mean we have a while to go for that to propagate down to the cheaper cams.

It's a step in the right direction. The CMOSIS sensor from what I heard costs $200 each.

Chris Medico October 30th, 2012 09:11 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
At least it is a feature that is being seen as having a value in the marketplace.

Jeff Kellam October 30th, 2012 12:49 PM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Jack:

Im so glad to see you keep this issue alive.

Im not doing much video nowdays, but it looks like people are dumbing down and accepting rolling shutter as normal more and more. It's possible lots of younger videographers have never even seen real video off a CCD camera, so they really just dont know what real motion even looks like.

I came to DVinfo today to see what all cameras are available nowdays. Looks like they are all CMOS. I guess I will go back into my hole for another 3 to 4 years and think about replacing cameras then.

Jeff

Sander Vreuls October 30th, 2012 01:43 PM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Tbh, most broadcast cameras are still CCD, so if you watch a live HD broadcast chances are pretty big that they are CCD's in action.. So they must have seen it :)

Anyway.. CCD is on the way out, and rightfully so.. Even though it has made beautiful pictures, CMOS is surpassing it in many features..

Jack Zhang October 31st, 2012 09:12 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Which is why Global Shutter CMOS is the next innovation that needs to start in the high-end and slowly get cheaper to produce to the point of reaching the consumer.

I remember a time when skew and flash banding were not issues. Like I said about a year ago in this thread, current obstacles to Global Shutters are limited Dynamic Range and Noise. The GS2K looked good from some sample footage that I've seen, all it takes is a good DSP and a RGB prism with 3 sensors for that sensor to possibly produce decent images.

Sander Vreuls October 31st, 2012 09:54 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
This might be a nice read then
http://www.grassvalley.com/docs/Whit...sium-FT_WP.pdf

Jeff Kellam November 1st, 2012 09:15 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Sander:

Although that "white paper" was ridiculously biased, it was still a good read, and nice to see that CMOS solutions are on the way, however imperfect they may be.

I just hope this type of sensor can start moving into the prosumer market really soon.

Jeff

Jack Zhang February 13th, 2015 12:12 PM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Bumping this thread after 3 years to say 4K is going to make this even harder. Skew is getting worse as sensors have to scan more pixels and Global Shutter cams (decent ones from Sony or etc, not Blackmagic's) seem further away from reality more than ever.

Thank you Sony for the F55, but at the same time, at least something in the XDCAM lineup needs a global shutter, but 4K is making that more impossible.

The Blackmagic cameras are trying to re-purpose industrial robot CMOS sensors to do video. Remember the "black sun" bug? That's not a bug. That's how the sensor takes the data in natively, and Blackmagic has to modify that data to make a usable image, but it makes lots of image artifacts as a result.

Unless organic CMOS upcoming is capable of Global Shutter, expect the dream to fade further away as 4K begins to become more prevalent.

Jack Zhang December 23rd, 2015 11:22 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
End of year musings after seeing the Filmmaker IQ on camera sensors:

Global Shutter CMOS sensors will suffer one dramatic flaw: They are magnitudes more sensitive to laser strikes than standard CMOS sensors, because of more transistors on each sensing pixel on the silicon. (that's what causes lasers to kill pixels, the photon overload literally destroys the transistor on or near the pixel.)

Even beam splitted lasers pose a risk to cameras like the F55. The party laser boxes that project dots on the floor are actually a risk.

Better laser immunity will only come with a new technology, like the organic tech aforementioned, which puts the transistors below the pickup layer and a protective layer. With the stuff below the pickup, it might leave more room to allow Global Shutter but not sacrifice resilience to low power laser strikes.

Roger Shore December 24th, 2015 04:21 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Although I'm only a (very) amateur videographer, I have always detested rolling shutter artifacts, and still prefer to use my ageing CCD sensors consumer camcorders. I'm often accused on some video forums of 'overreacting' when complaining about rolling shutters, but I just get 'sea sick' with that dreadful 'jello' motion that accompanies many moving sequences shot with CMOS sensors.

And these days even broadcasters - like our own BBC here in the UK - seem happy to use using CMOS sensors in totally inappropriate situations, on occasion. How standards have dropped!

So I totally share the sentiment in Jack's sig, and hope my CCD cameras last until global CMOS sensors arrive in 'amateur land'..........Oh look, there's a flying pig!.....

Jack Zhang December 24th, 2015 01:56 PM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
CCDs are also more resilient to lasers since there's less circuitry on or near the pixel itself to permanently overload.

CCDs have a different problem though: When you increase the gain, you often get "hot pixels" that are stuck on white.

I personally think organic BSI global shutter CMOS will be the breakthrough needed, and the F55 successor better have it.

Also, for those actually interested in rolling shutter artifacts, here's an Imgur album for you: http://imgur.com/gallery/RG7Kd

Jim Martin August 31st, 2016 03:38 PM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Canon develops global shutter-equipped CMOS sensor that achieves expanded dynamic range through new drive method | Canon Global

Jack Zhang September 2nd, 2016 11:30 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Yes, but that sensor is on the F55 level of out of reach for prosumers. The point of this thread is for that tech to propagate down to prosumer and consumer tech. It hasn't happened yet. (Blackmagic is the thorn in the bush, cause they use machine vision sensors and not specifically video sensors. Canon in the release did say they're doing machine vision first with this sensor then "considering" video production. I'm talking from the major manufacturers at a cost most people can afford.)

Gary Huff September 2nd, 2016 11:51 AM

Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers?
 
Well, you'll have to wait a while for this technology to trickle down into your typical $2500+ professional hybrid photo/video camera and $5000+ video-centric large sensor cameras. Probably by the 2020s.


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