Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? at DVinfo.net

Jack Zhang · June 5th, 2011, 05:57 PM

The plague of rolling shutters, flash banding, skew, and more is infecting like never before...

My planned camera I was supposed to get a year from now is the Canon XH-G1s paired with a nanoFlash. It's practically the only solution to the problem by using older technologies: CCDs.

Now that the G1s is discontinued, (and likely will become rare in a year) this begs the future of skew-free pictures... Will we ever see global shutter CMOS sensors come down in implementation cost so that it can be passed onto the market at an affordable price? Everyone I try to explain as to why CCDs are better always believe technology is only going to get better, but this simply not the case with CMOS and rolling shutters. No matter how fast you make the chip, it's impossible to capture the same place in time if you are scanning down the sensor.

It all seems like a very far away dream right now, because none of the manufacturers are spending R&D on affordable global shutter sensors for the rest of us. Software compensation will never match a true global shutter, so my assumption is that matchmovers nowadays beg for their DOPs to move very slowly if the camera they're using has skew issues.

Sure, consumers don't care, some pros don't care, but there are people in a black hole at the moment that do care about skew and flash banding enough to wish hard for a new CCD camera or a affordable Global Shutter camera. These people either can't afford ENG sized cameras, or they're too big for their needs.

The big question: Will rolling shutters be solved in our lifetimes? You have to wonder why all these cost savings and lack of R&D will not level out so that the R&D creates a good global shutter sensor that is also affordable fast enough.

I do warn that I do not want an argument of "Suck it up" to rise out of this.

Greg Fiske · June 6th, 2011, 10:46 AM

Do camera's like the red one have rolling shutter problems? I figure that level of technology will probably be within our reach in 5-10 years.

Jack Zhang · June 7th, 2011, 07:10 AM

Yup, even the RED is a rolling shutter. But the speed of that is really fast compared to other cameras. The SI-2K is also a rolling shutter. Just watch all the flash banding in Slumdog Millionare to see what I mean.

5-10 years is technically 50-100 technology years nowadays. It's also a factor of if people care, and right now, lots of people don't, unless they grew up without seeing skew and etc.

Edit: The dream is slightly closer: http://www.viimagic.com/news-press/n...20sensors.html (It's still only one manufacturer. The key is that Canon, Sony and etc need to make their own global shutter sensors that don't increase noise or decrease dynamic range.)

Richard Alvarez · June 7th, 2011, 07:22 AM

Right now, it's a limitation that some people are willing to live with, or work around. Like the shutter speed for still cameras and flash photography. (Anything FASTER than 1/60th would lead to half frame flashes). Like the slower panning with 24f cine cameras to keep the judder down. Professional DPs know from experience how fast you can pan the camera.

Eventually, it will get there. The ability is there - it's about Afford-ability.

Chris Medico · June 7th, 2011, 08:39 AM

How long it will take is largely dependent on how much pressure is applied to bring it to a particular market segment. Will your iPhone one day have a global shutter CMOS sensor? Maybe but not any time soon. Will the majority of consumer and lower end professional cameras? I suspect they will but just before your iPhone does. Meaning only slightly sooner than not any time soon. :(

For the majority of video work rolling shutter has little effect on the audiences perception of a quality image. Ultimately if the audience is willing to accept it as good enough those of us (myself included) that don't like rolling shutter artifacts are forced to grin and bear it.

Once cameras that lack those artifacts become available in my market segment I'll immediately vote with my wallet.

Till then watch me grin.

Walter Brokx · June 7th, 2011, 01:54 PM

Check the Sony PWM-500. 422 Full HD CCD camera.

The 'next chip' is already being developed (can't find the link from over a year ago) : hopefully without rolling shutter.

Jack Zhang · June 7th, 2011, 03:36 PM

That camera's too big for some and still in the 20K range which is out of reach for prosumers.

Something sized like the XF300, but uses global shutters (and maybe a proper implementation of 1080p60) would get me buying it in a snap.

Panasonic's getting ever so close with the HPX250. They just need to fix the sensors and add support for their vaporware codec "AVC-Ultra".

Lawrence Bansbach · June 29th, 2011, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

Panasonic's getting ever so close with the HPX250. They just need to fix the sensors and add support for their vaporware codec "AVC-Ultra".

The sensors in the HPX250 are only 1/3-inch. I'd like to see at least 2/3-inch, along with a global shutter. And as for AVC-Ultra, it goes only to 2K at 24p. Panasonic should start thinking of prosumer 4K at at least 60p. And dump the AVCHD for prosumer -- at least have better codec options. Maybe in the AF200.

Jack Zhang · June 29th, 2011, 12:32 PM

I'm talking Prosumer equipment. Triple 1/2-inch should be sufficient enough yet still keep the price down. Triple 2/3-inch is currently an impossibility for prosumers in terms of price being under $10000.

4K at 60p is already possible with the newer RED cameras. 4K is it's own class and doesn't deserve high compression schemes at the moment. (only when Broadcast 4K starts would that be an issue)

And AVC-Ultra is currently vaporware. It was one of those talked about codecs that never surfaced again.

Jack Zhang · August 7th, 2011, 07:00 AM

Bumping this thread to gauge how back-illuminated (BSI) sensors may have an effect on getting less noise from a global shutter CMOS sensor.

So the NX70 just came out with it's back-illuminated CMOS sensor that promises less noise in low-light. Can this same technology help make global shutter CMOS sensors possible thanks to less noise?

Alen Koebel · August 7th, 2011, 02:36 PM

Quote:

So the NX70 just came out with it's back-illuminated CMOS sensor that promises less noise in low-light. Can this same technology help make global shutter CMOS sensors possible thanks to less noise?

I assume it could. It should allow the extra transistors required per pixel to be added without reducing the fill factor.

Jack Zhang · August 7th, 2011, 03:15 PM

Supposedly, rumors are that the upcoming iPhones will have Global Shutter sensors with back-illumination. It's admittingly a different class of sensor size, but it shows there's progress being made.

Jack Zhang · October 13th, 2011, 04:51 AM

Rumor debunked. The 4S is coming, but it's still a rolling shutter.

All we can hope for is talk of global shutters upcoming at NAB.

Jack Zhang · October 26th, 2012, 03:41 AM

I just discovered the CMOSIS CMV2000 2/3'' 2048x1088 Global Shutter sensor.

CMV2000 - CMOSIS

Currently the only camera that uses this sensor that has some availability is the IndieGS2K.

IndieCam GS2K

Putting 3 of these sensors in a prism and fitting a good DSP around these is sure to be a winner. To remain open source, use of the DIRAC codec may be an excellent 1080p60 recording solution... (or if it's RAW data fed to a PC, it would be capable of encoding in Avid DNxHD if the codec is installed.)

If we already have a decent Global Shutter 2/3'' sensor, why have Sony and etc still stuck on Rolling Shutters!?!

Jack Zhang · October 30th, 2012, 12:12 AM

WOW. THANK YOU SONY for the F55 with GLOBAL SHUTTER 4K!

If the XAVC codec and the Global Shutter tech propagates down to 2/3'' and 1/2'' cameras and gets cheaper, I'll be very happy.

The F5 unfortunately looks like it's still rolling shutter.

June 5th, 2011, 05:57 PM	#1
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? The plague of rolling shutters, flash banding, skew, and more is infecting like never before... My planned camera I was supposed to get a year from now is the Canon XH-G1s paired with a nanoFlash. It's practically the only solution to the problem by using older technologies: CCDs. Now that the G1s is discontinued, (and likely will become rare in a year) this begs the future of skew-free pictures... Will we ever see global shutter CMOS sensors come down in implementation cost so that it can be passed onto the market at an affordable price? Everyone I try to explain as to why CCDs are better always believe technology is only going to get better, but this simply not the case with CMOS and rolling shutters. No matter how fast you make the chip, it's impossible to capture the same place in time if you are scanning down the sensor. It all seems like a very far away dream right now, because none of the manufacturers are spending R&D on affordable global shutter sensors for the rest of us. Software compensation will never match a true global shutter, so my assumption is that matchmovers nowadays beg for their DOPs to move very slowly if the camera they're using has skew issues. Sure, consumers don't care, some pros don't care, but there are people in a black hole at the moment that do care about skew and flash banding enough to wish hard for a new CCD camera or a affordable Global Shutter camera. These people either can't afford ENG sized cameras, or they're too big for their needs. The big question: Will rolling shutters be solved in our lifetimes? You have to wonder why all these cost savings and lack of R&D will not level out so that the R&D creates a good global shutter sensor that is also affordable fast enough. I do warn that I do not want an argument of "Suck it up" to rise out of this. Last edited by Jack Zhang; June 5th, 2011 at 07:39 PM.

June 6th, 2011, 10:46 AM	#2
Greg Fiske Major Player Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Santa Ana, CA Posts: 499	Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? Do camera's like the red one have rolling shutter problems? I figure that level of technology will probably be within our reach in 5-10 years.

June 7th, 2011, 07:10 AM	#3
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? Yup, even the RED is a rolling shutter. But the speed of that is really fast compared to other cameras. The SI-2K is also a rolling shutter. Just watch all the flash banding in Slumdog Millionare to see what I mean. 5-10 years is technically 50-100 technology years nowadays. It's also a factor of if people care, and right now, lots of people don't, unless they grew up without seeing skew and etc. Edit: The dream is slightly closer: http://www.viimagic.com/news-press/n...20sensors.html (It's still only one manufacturer. The key is that Canon, Sony and etc need to make their own global shutter sensors that don't increase noise or decrease dynamic range.)

June 7th, 2011, 07:22 AM	#4
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? Right now, it's a limitation that some people are willing to live with, or work around. Like the shutter speed for still cameras and flash photography. (Anything FASTER than 1/60th would lead to half frame flashes). Like the slower panning with 24f cine cameras to keep the judder down. Professional DPs know from experience how fast you can pan the camera. Eventually, it will get there. The ability is there - it's about Afford-ability.

June 7th, 2011, 08:39 AM	#5
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? How long it will take is largely dependent on how much pressure is applied to bring it to a particular market segment. Will your iPhone one day have a global shutter CMOS sensor? Maybe but not any time soon. Will the majority of consumer and lower end professional cameras? I suspect they will but just before your iPhone does. Meaning only slightly sooner than not any time soon. :( For the majority of video work rolling shutter has little effect on the audiences perception of a quality image. Ultimately if the audience is willing to accept it as good enough those of us (myself included) that don't like rolling shutter artifacts are forced to grin and bear it. Once cameras that lack those artifacts become available in my market segment I'll immediately vote with my wallet. Till then watch me grin. __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com

June 7th, 2011, 01:54 PM	#6
Walter Brokx Major Player Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Maassluis, The Netherlands Posts: 294	Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? Check the Sony PWM-500. 422 Full HD CCD camera. The 'next chip' is already being developed (can't find the link from over a year ago) : hopefully without rolling shutter. __________________ Brainstormnavigator searching for the hole in the sky..... Audiovisual Designer (NL) - http://www.brokxmedia.nl

June 7th, 2011, 03:36 PM	#7
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? That camera's too big for some and still in the 20K range which is out of reach for prosumers. Something sized like the XF300, but uses global shutters (and maybe a proper implementation of 1080p60) would get me buying it in a snap. Panasonic's getting ever so close with the HPX250. They just need to fix the sensors and add support for their vaporware codec "AVC-Ultra".

June 29th, 2011, 12:32 PM	#9
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? I'm talking Prosumer equipment. Triple 1/2-inch should be sufficient enough yet still keep the price down. Triple 2/3-inch is currently an impossibility for prosumers in terms of price being under $10000. 4K at 60p is already possible with the newer RED cameras. 4K is it's own class and doesn't deserve high compression schemes at the moment. (only when Broadcast 4K starts would that be an issue) And AVC-Ultra is currently vaporware. It was one of those talked about codecs that never surfaced again.

August 7th, 2011, 07:00 AM	#10
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? Bumping this thread to gauge how back-illuminated (BSI) sensors may have an effect on getting less noise from a global shutter CMOS sensor. So the NX70 just came out with it's back-illuminated CMOS sensor that promises less noise in low-light. Can this same technology help make global shutter CMOS sensors possible thanks to less noise? Last edited by Jack Zhang; August 7th, 2011 at 11:40 AM.

August 7th, 2011, 03:15 PM	#12
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? Supposedly, rumors are that the upcoming iPhones will have Global Shutter sensors with back-illumination. It's admittingly a different class of sensor size, but it shows there's progress being made.

October 13th, 2011, 04:51 AM	#13
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? Rumor debunked. The 4S is coming, but it's still a rolling shutter. All we can hope for is talk of global shutters upcoming at NAB.

October 26th, 2012, 03:41 AM	#14
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? I just discovered the CMOSIS CMV2000 2/3'' 2048x1088 Global Shutter sensor. CMV2000 - CMOSIS Currently the only camera that uses this sensor that has some availability is the IndieGS2K. IndieCam GS2K Putting 3 of these sensors in a prism and fitting a good DSP around these is sure to be a winner. To remain open source, use of the DIRAC codec may be an excellent 1080p60 recording solution... (or if it's RAW data fed to a PC, it would be capable of encoding in Avid DNxHD if the codec is installed.) If we already have a decent Global Shutter 2/3'' sensor, why have Sony and etc still stuck on Rolling Shutters!?!

October 30th, 2012, 12:12 AM	#15
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: Is "Rolling Shutter-Free" a far away dream for Consumers and Prosumers? WOW. THANK YOU SONY for the F55 with GLOBAL SHUTTER 4K! If the XAVC codec and the Global Shutter tech propagates down to 2/3'' and 1/2'' cameras and gets cheaper, I'll be very happy. The F5 unfortunately looks like it's still rolling shutter.