I was all set to buy the HV30, but now....
 

All the buzz is about the HF10, & Sony's SR11/12. I haven't owned a camcorder for 6 or 7 years and want to get back into filming family events, trips, and get a little creative from time to time. Tape or no tape doesn't matter, 24 & 30p does. I want them. Also want the cine mode, & mic input jacks, which they all have. Bottom line is the best image quality. It is unlikely I will ever make an indie film, but would like to know the image quality is there if I were to. So, if any of you have hands on experience with these machines, please let me know what you thought of the videos they produce. Thanks.....

If you are fine with tape based than go for new Canon HV30, I have Canon HV 20 & JVC GZHD7!

See my uploaded Canon HV20 video here http://www.vimeo.com/771305

You can see some other videos also!

You can still buy old Canon HV20 also, it is available now very reasonable price, but if I would be in your position I would go for latest means Canon HV30.

Kaushik

I bought the Sony SR12. I was in the same position as you. I had a Sony DVD 403 that I liked very much as far as ease of use and fast transfer from camera to computer to edit with Sony Vegas.

I really considered the HV20 and HV30 and HG10 all by Canon as you likely know. I liked the images I watched of the SR12 on the internet and figured I would give it a try. I did not really want to go with tape.

Consider this: Its not a good Idea to use tape over again as your video can suffer drop outs. You can record over and over on tape if the video you are shooting is for fun or practice. But If you are shooting a keeper then get a new tape.

I know the HV20 and 30 are very good but I really think the SR12 and SR11 from sony could be just the camera for those who dont want tape and want a great picture. I cannot say that the SR12 is better then the HV20 or 30 or even if they are a match with their own little faults because I have not owned the Canons.

I can say that the video I see on VIMEO and other sites is all equal to me.

Now the cannon HG10 has a good following as well but there is some issue with video length or file size and additional files being created that cause video stream problems. (check it out)

But the HG10 gets great video as well and is at a low price these days.


I thought I would share my experience with you.

Here is a video I took with the SR12 for you to check out.
http://www.vimeo.com/799326
All of my videos are with the SR12 by the way.


I would say the SR12 is worth a look for yourself before make a choice.

I personnaly found the feel and built quality of the SR12 to blow the HV30 away. But how the SR12 works out in the long run is just a waiting game

Indeed, I agree that build quality seems to be better than Canon HV20, I have not seen so far Canon HV30, but I guess HV20 & HV30 are same made material just only colour difference is there!

As far as concern video quality, Canon HV20/ HV30 would be superior! I have Canon HV20 as well as I have JVC GZHD7!

Well, so far I have not seen any stunning videos from Sony SR12, but I have seen stunning videos of Canon HV20! Maybe we will able to see in near future some videos from Sony SR12 than we will be in position to compare both!

Kaushik

Yes Kaushik, the HV20 does produce stunning videos, I've had one since it came out. However, like Paul, I too bought the SR12 and did quite a bit of A/B testing with both the HV20 and SR12. I've looked at the footage and have showed it to a videophile friend of mine (he had no idea which footage I was showing him, so it was a kind of 'blind A/B' testing for him). We both agreed the SR12 picture quality was a bit better than the HV20. I also had a friend in Canada look at a few clips I sent him on his 100" Zenith RP HDTV with 9" guns. He's modified what was a 64" Zenith with special optics and screen to produce a 100" picture. He's got a Canon HV10 and thoughts the clips were every bit as good as his HV10.

But that's just the opinion of three people who are very attuned to video, others may differ. However the fact is that the SR12 does indeed take stunning video. Whether you think it's a bit better or not, I sincerely doubt that most people would even be able to tell the difference between it and the Canons. My wife who fits in to the 'casual' observer category, has a hard time telling which is which. ;)

So in reality what it boils down to is the best of the Canons and the best of the Sonys are so good, that they produce a picture that's very close in quality and stunning to look at. So it boils down to features and formats. Once you've lived with AVCHD and its instant access, non-linear approach to viewing, it's very hard to go back to tape. It really is. The joy of instantly picking any clip you've got and viewing it immediately or seeing a thumbnail on your screen of every clip you've taken...well it kind of makes tape look old...very old.

Yes for editing it's still problematic and yes you do need a high-end computer to do it well, but this will eventually sort out too.

Ken Rose,

I am looking forward to see stunning video like Canon HV20 & JVC GZHD7 from Sony SR12! By seeing it pictures of SR12, it seems to me build quality is better than Canon HV20, but I am not sure it would be as good as JVC GZHD7.

Don’t you think you should go for new Canon HF10? I was reading review of it, and it seems to me if you want to buy AVCHD camera than that would have been good choice! Anyway, as far as you are very much happy with Sony SR12 than you are fine, can you please upload some of your videos on vimeo?

Thanks,
Kaushik

Ok but you do not own the SR series from sony??? NO. S o how can you say "would be superior"

I only stated my opinion about bulid quality because I held both in my hand side by side. I have neither had the video to work with side by side nor have I had a HD DVD produced from each to watch on a high quality TV.

So I would not say that the SR12 would be superior unless I had the goods to back it up.

I would have no problem with anyone finding a image quality fault with the Sony SR series that was generally accepted as a fault. If I even found a short comming I would quickly make it known. This would only serve the consumers and make Sony act.

But what has come out is squabbling about the Sony SR series (really the SR11 & 12) from variuos critics on the forums. I suspect that (again I suspect its not fact) the people who have issue are not a fan of AVCHD and dont have the PC power to really work it.

Now if you do a search on the different video sharing sites of HV20 you will find alot of posted videos. With alot of those videos effects and filters have been applied. So If your goal is to be creative with the camera, I would say that the differences between the Sony and Canon cameras ia a moot point.

But the little issues that have been brought up about the SR series have in fact been found to be operator error and not the camera. I think there is alot of good info on these forums; however, one needs to take it all in and really listen.

The issue with the HG10 and file size larger than 2g (I think thas the correct size) is a real issue others have found the same issue.

So the evolution of the HG10 file size went from Hypothesis (individuals finding problem) to Theroy (everone's Hypothesis being grouped and supported with testing) to now LAW (the problem is real can be explained)


Now there no absolute proof in science. Even a LAW can be found to be wrong but a LAW is a LAW because it has NOT been disproven as a theory)


SO why say all of this?? The canon HV20 has proven itself and current THEORY says so. Its not LAW yet it hasent been around long enough.

But ther SR12 is new discovery and the hypothesis have not become theory.


So to say "would be superior" is a blind statment and not supported by any personal insight.

Thanks for the replies so far folks. I can see you have a passion for video. Another question for those with the SR11/12's, how is the sound quality, and does the audio zoom actually work? From what I;ve been reading in other posts onthis site and others, the video quality is so close between the HV30 & SR11/12 that it's almost a moot point, which then comes down to the features and options each camera offers. It would be easier if one stood head and shoulders above the others.......

LOL! Well out of the blue I received a phone message from Roger in Canon support who wants to discuss this issue with me, so I will tack on the relevant proceedings of this conversation to the 2GB thread...

Don't forget price too
 

It may not be the deciding factor, but I thought it bears mentioning. Right now there is a rather hefty $400-$500 price difference between the HV20 and the SR11. The SR11/12 may have a slight edge in video quality and sound, and of course there's the whole tape vs. non-linear media issue, but the HV20 is certainly a good value at the moment.

I have the SR11 and tried the zoom option when my son was riding his tricycle 100 yards away. Wasn't impressed. Haven't tried it in a noisy room yet. The 5.1 surround sound doesn't have tremendous separation, but it does work and give a different feel to the video. The still pictures are actually quite usable, too (especially outdoors).

I haven't seen you mention the new canon hf10/100, but I think you ought to consider it too. The new canon lacks the 5.1 sound/zoom feature, and the slo-mo capture (3 seconds slowed to 12 seconds w/ a lower resolution) of the Sony, but has 24p and 30p, along with a little better manual control over the camera.

By the way, I'm really enjoying my Sony SR11.

I am afraid you took it very much seriously, I don’t own SR12 that is why I use word "would be" means it maybe superior or maybe not! I never told Canon HV20 is superior, how can I tell till I have not compare both!

I also trust Sony Company, they have good products. I am looking forward to see stunning videos from Sony SR12; I would appreciate if you can post them!

Kaushik

Great point! I really was set to get the HG10. I could pick it up for about $700 a week ago. This would have left $$$ in my budget fro a lens and a Sony Vegas upgrade to the PRO version.

But it was the file size issue that gave me concern in the end. But it was the features that helped as well. I really wanted a manual focus knob. But I liked the standard shoe on the HG10. I liked the larger lcd on the SR12 but figured the HG10 would be good enough.


In the end I got the SR12 for $1099 which is about $400 more than the HV20 and HG10 and about $100 more than the HV30.


So I didn't want tape so the HV30 is out as well as the HV20. So it left me with the Hg10 and SR. The latest infor about the file size made ma choice for me.

Now I could have waited for the canon HF10 and HF100 to ship to test them. But they lost the focus knob and went with a proprietary hot shoe...DUH no better than the Sony attitude in that respect.

Kaushik, for me to switch to the HF10, it would have to demonstrate visibly superior picture quality. From the clips I've downloaded, it doesn't. I also have to factor in the loss of a viewfinder, 5.1 surround sound, larger LCD, much larger internal storage space and what is to my eyes the lowest noise levels I've encoutered with a consumer HD cam in the SR12.

I've uploaded SR12 videos that you can download here. This is a far better way to see the quality than the highly compressed Vimeo website. Frankly I can't tell the quality of anything on that site due to the compression:

Sunny day shot:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GOHXJM70

Here's an early morning, hazy day shot in N.Y.C.:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=00JC43E9

The new canon HF has better manual control.... Am I wrong but did they not include a manual focus knob? Or do you mean items like gain and shutter then if they kept the same features as the HV series then yes more control.


The SR gives the basic control over your shots. I wish I had a little more control of the gain and shutter. Also the HV and HG from canon have that photo button trick to get total contrl over gain and shutter for low light shots.

I tried the zoom as well and really could not tell a difference. I dont think its a great feature in terms of true audio performance. the mics being used are the same mics. I think it places focus on the front and increases the gain in that channel. So you could reduce sound to the left and right a little but it is not a shotgun mic.

More test will need to be done by the pros that test this stuff to getthe real scoop.


But I have the mic jack and headphone jack to cinnect my MKE300 or even better my ME67 and k6. I can also monitor and adjust mic level by going through my zoom h2, which also provides me with an additional audio track!!

Interesting question John and I fully agree with you about the video quality. Anyone stating that there is a large difference in video quality between cams like the SR11/12, HV20/30 and probably the HF10, are not being sincere.

Yes, there are slight differences, but in my mind the biggest single difference between these cams is the video noise. There is simply less noise in the new Sonys than any other consumer HD cam I've seen.

As for sound, the Sony audio is the best I've heard in any cam I've owned. The surround 5.1 sound does make a difference and adds an ambience and realism to the sound I've never heard in any of these cams. My shots in N.Y.C. had traffic sounds coming out of all speakers and in a directional fashion. Sure, it's not as good as if you had 5 discrete mike elements in 5 different locations, but it's absolutely amazing they were able to achieve what they did.

Jason, I was trying to figure out what you meant by not being impressed with the 'zoom option' until I realized you were talking about the audio zoom! Yes, I agree, I am not impressed with that feature either, but I am impressed with the 5.1 sound as I've said.

No not at all believe me. I did not take it to seriously. I just respond to finit statments "As far as concern video quality, Canon HV20/ HV30 would be superior! I have Canon HV20 as well as I have JVC GZHD7! "

Replace the word would with "could" or "may be" and that is a discussion.
Keep the word would and get replys like mine ;)

Im sorry im in a mood just having fun after all this as all supposed to be fun to take our minds of the things we don't want to think about..

I did consider the HF10 as well. The beauty of these discussions (and I thank you all) is it gets you thinking about different factors. Like I said in the begining, I'm still pretty new to shooting video and while I may never produce a blockbuster motion picture, it would be nice to have the perception I have as many tools at my disposal as possible. Optical viewfinders, manual control are important as well as the ability to shoot 24p & 30p. Regarding audio, it's imperative to be able to connect an external mic. It's both wonderful and maddening we have so many great choices, and I've come to realize I won't be dissapointed no matter which of these fine machines I decide to buy.

Paul, the often overlooked manual feature on the Sonys are the assignable front wheel. With that wheel you can manually control focus, exposure, white balance offset and exposure offset. I would like to add to that the Canon controls to raise or lower sharpness, color and brightness. Although to be honest, I always keep those at default in my HV20...but it's nice to know they're there.

Oh I know. I usually set white balance manually and its nice to be able to get to it quickly.

I did the candle test to see how much control I really wished I had. I found the the camera produces such a great image (again to me) that I really didn't need the control over shutter and iris. I know this is not a pro camera which would be expected to have those features. But all in all, I found that for my needs to be creative, I don't need control over those features to get what I need. I can do it all in post.

I just did some video of my children in the house under normal houshold lighting conditions on a cloudy day. The noise was almost not evident. This is why I really love this camera. I didn't need to do any photo button trick or play with controls. I can just point and shoot.

I could go on and on.....

Actually, the fact that the SR11/12 has the exposure offset function (AE shift I think it's called?) is really nice. I assume this is the same thing as what is normally called exposure compensation in still cameras. If it is, I've long wished my camcorder had this function. It lets you bias the exposure in fine increments to favor highlights or shadows while still allowing the auto-exposure system to make overall adjustments (i.e., without having to go to full manual control).

Paul in full manual the full scale is 18db then each segment down is 15,12,9,6,3,0 Once you get to know where these are it is possible to limit gain . However its not possible to set 12db gain and F4 for instance like I can do on my FX1.

Ron Evans

Dave, that's exactly what it is. You can also use the same type of 'shift' feature for white balance.

Just a note for an add on - the HW1 wireless microphone from Sony acts as a center channel source in 5.1 mode (It can also be set for straight mono/bridged stereo).

Even better than a zoom mic, just clip it, strap it or hang it on or near your sound source. Ambience AND pretty good clear sound of your little "actors", or big ones. For the price it's hard to beat, so far the bluetooth seems to be clean, and I have already run two HW1's simultaneously, so they seem to have discreet channels. I keep one with my CX7's, and it's a good little item to have.

Very nice Dave!

Boy, I'm starting to feel bummed that I can't really consider the SR11 because of the hard drive issues (altitude). I wish I could afford two cams at once, like the SD9 for climbing/skiing and the SR11 for everything else ;)

Hopefully the mythical CX9 will basically be an SR11 without the hard drive.

BTW, Ken, do you miss not having any progressive recording modes on the SR12? I guess the low light performance is good enough without needing 24P, and you can always get 30P by deinterlacing in post...

Oh yes I forgot to mention that too. But you clearly did that.
I found this and was unsure about its exact function. Ken shed some light on it for me. I have been playing with it and found that I like to reduce the exposure by -2 (It goes to -4.) It really adds depth to the image like in nature shots for instance.

I'm not too surprised. My current camcorder tends to overexpose highlights in some circumstances (most do); since it doesn't have such an exposure compensation function, it forces me to resort to full manual exposure. The exposure compensation function would be much more convenient.

Since the SR 11/12 records to both HD and card, is it not possible to record to the card only when altitude might be an issue?

Dave, to be honest no. I was never a fan of 24p and its inherent stutter and the only reason I ever used it (and it was VERY seldom at that) was low light. So I really don't miss it at all. I do think the low light performance of the SR12 is good relative to any of these consumer cams. I'm not saying it's anywhere near that of a VX2100, but in terms of HD it's fine.

But to put things in perspective on 24p for me, I'm really a 'video' guy and I mean in that in the sense that I love the video 'look'...the 'you are there look' that 60i, non progressive video gives. I'm not a fan of the simulated film look that video cams try to achieve (and don't IMO). Any mode that puts me further away from that 'you are there' look is generally not one I like. I know some people love it, but that's why we have choices.

I guess you could say if I loved the film look I'd shoot with film. ;)

Yes it is Hans, but there is the issue as to whether the HD is spinning or parked even when recording to the card. We haven't really heard anything definitive on that. I know when I'm recording to a card, I can still hear something going on with the HD. It's not the very low clicking sound I can hear when recording to the HD, but you do hear something.

Fortunately I never hear anything in the recording and it's surely nothing like tape transport noise.

I'm largely the same way. Faster frame rates reproduce motion more faithfully than lower frame rates, yet people want the juttery look of 90 year old film technology.

It reminds me of the period of the time when people wanted their solid state amplifiers to sound like tube amps, or when many folks complained that CD's sounded "too clean" compared to vinyl. I guess a lot of people get used to the characteristics of old technology and have a hard time giving up that feel even though newer technology is actually truer-to-life.

Having said that, if I end up getting an SD9, I'm sure I'll want to use every trick, including 24P, in those rare low light situations ;-)

Windows vista Service Pack 1 (SP1)
 

I just finished updating my vista with the VIsta SP1
It is supposed to fixe some issues and make the OS run more efficiently

I also followed a couple of tips from this site on reducing the vista CPU usage.

http://www.techradar.com/news/softwa...s-vista-244684

I removed the AERO color (indicated as on of the tips)

the look is a little old school windows but I set the look for performance not appearence.

Im rendering an audio test now and it is running faster ;)

He he, that reminds me of the "CD transition" - lots of analog masters were just dumped direct to CD without remastering... someone forgot that the engineers typically had to "tweak" the EQ curve for tape or vinyl to compensate for the frequency dropoff - thus highs now were harsh, etc.

With every new technology, there are adherents to the "old", because it's "better". "Better" meaning what you are used to and comfortable with, and the "new" is sometimes still on a road "under construction"...

I myself think that CC (color correction) or the way one posts the footage, whatever media it originated in does far more to create the illusion. Yes, cadence makes a difference, I render out to 24P in Vegas, and people say it looks less like video to them, so I guess it's working... but everything I've seen leads me to be more interested in capturing the original event as clean and accurate as possible, then getting creative in post to get the "look" I'm after.

60P would probably be the "ideal" (presuming my new 4D holocam isn't ready for prime time), but 60i will have to do... if that's what I've got available, good enough.

And about the exposure, yep, I find reigning the cam in a bit from it's "automatic" exposure settings is almost always a way to get better looking video. I usually either set AE between 2-4 clicks to the left (darker), and or have a control dial/wheel set to adjust that or exposure on the fly.

Ha! If you took a master with an RIAA 33-1/3 recording curve applied to it and wrote that to a CD, boy would you be in for a rude awakening! Thankfully, I must have never got any of those disks.

Even with good equalization, there were a lot of people (audiophiles included) who, for a number of years, would complain that CD's were "too clean" or "too crisp" for their tastes.

In audio the complaints eventually died away, but in video, the issue will probably persist because the film and TV industry is perpetuating the use of 24 fps.

Now it looks like a race between the HV30 & SR11. From this discussion it seems the image quality is pretty much a draw, and thats the most important factor. Sounds like the SR11 has the edge in audio quality, but if I want great audio I know I will have to use external mic's. Now I have to determine if my computer can handle editing AVCHD, and if I want to go the tape route or external HD to archive my video. Thanks for the great conversation, I will let you know what I decide on and will download video as soon as I can.

John

Can you do an in camera transfer of video from the SR11's hd, to a memory stick?

Yes - you might want to download the manual from Sony.com to get to know the camera better - I'd imagine the HV30 manual is around somewhere on Canon's site too.

The SR11 has 5.1 surround vs. stereo of HDV/HV30. Don't know if the HV30 improves upon the HV20, but if not, yes add external mics.

I'm fairly impressed with the 5.1 setup on my CX7, FWIW, and with the HW1 added, it's a pretty versatile little rig. Looking forward to the bigger screen of the SR11 myself, that would be a big factor.