60i vs 30p vs 24p

Bob Kittleson · May 16th, 2008, 12:45 PM

I finally got a chance to play with the different frame rates on my Canon HF100. With my particular equipment, I get the same result as Ken: video recoded in 30p does not reproduce motion as smoothly as 60i. The difference was most noticeable during panning, where 30p looked a little jumpy while 60i looked smooth. For playback, the HF100 was connected directly to a JVC HD-56FH97 display (60hz LCOS 1080p) via HDMI.

Similar JVCs displays did a good job of deinterlacing in the hometheatermag tests (http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1107hook2/), but I have no clue if they are able to properly apply a simple weave to deinterlace 30p content in a 60i stream. Regardless, the end result for me is that 60i looks smoother, so it will be my default recording mode.

Ken Ross · May 16th, 2008, 05:38 PM

Can't say I blame you Bob! ;)

Wacharapong Chiowanich · May 21st, 2008, 12:10 AM

The other day I stopped by a friend's house that happened to have a 32" 1080i Sony CRT TV bought about 4 years ago at the cost of about a fine 50" 1080p LCD set made by most makers today. What surprised me most about it was not the progress of the technology or the cost-effectiveness of viewing today's HD movies. It was the sheer image quality of displaying my HDV footage from my ancient Sony HC-1E (I'm in a PAL land) via the camera's analog component output and my friend's AVCHD footage from his CX-7 also via component. Not only the video looked great by any standard, there were no perceptible artifacts like trailing, blockiness and no hint of noise despite the fact that part of the footage had been shot with gain up to about 12 dB! SD Hollywood movies via $100 DVD player and component scaled up superbly too compared with displaying the same movies on the Sony dealer's new 32" 100Hz 1080p LCD set via HDMI.

I couldn't remember the model but it and a few similar models have long disappeared from the market where I live. I suspect Sony has stopped making them for sometime now. What a pity. The real downside appears to be the size and weight when compared to the LCD or plasma sets. This makes me wish somebody revived all the dead interlaced hi-def CRTs or came up with an affordable 1080 or 720/60p cameras soon.

Wacharapong

Ken Ross · May 21st, 2008, 05:40 AM

Wacharapong, until about 2 years ago I also had a CRT HDTV. It was a Panasonic 34" Tau model. I'm not sure what you're comparing your friend's Sony CRT to in terms of today's technology and brands, but I can tell you that both my Pioneer & Fujitsu plasmas blew away the overall picture quality of the CRT. That Panasonic Tau HDTV was very highly regarded in reviews although I felt the comparable Sony 34" HDTV was a bit better.

I never see noise, trailing or blockiness on the Pioneer Kuro plasma that I use for my primary viewing. The only noise I'll ever see is that which was recorded due to very poor lighting conditions and can even be seen on the camera's LCD. If a display is masking noise that was actually recorded by the camera, then the display is actually not presenting an accurate image.

There is no doubt in my mind that the best plasmas (not LCDs) produce a superior overall picture to consumer CRTs that are still around. Yes, you might find one picture parameter (black level) that still remains superior on the best CRTs, but the overall picture quality is better IMO than consumer CRTs and the latest generation of Pioneer Kuros tremendously narrows the gap even on black level to the point where it's truly not significant. When you factor in picture degrading issues that don't exist on plasmas but do on CRTs such as focus, linearity, convergence, color purity and others, the overall presentation is just better on the best plasmas.

My HD videos as well as broadcast HD surely looks much better on my Kuro than any consumer CRT I've ever seen. Now if you're talking about a $30,000 professional 24" CRT HD monitor, that's another story. But to be honest, I wouldn't even trade that for the sheer cinematic feel of a 60", top-notch plasma.

Ron Evans · May 21st, 2008, 08:50 AM

I had Sony HiScan 1080i TV that my daughter now has in her basement room. It does produce really nice smooth images that I still feel are slightly better than the deinterlacing of the 1080P Panasonic Plasma that I have now. The Panasonic does a better job with SD TV than the Sony and of course is much higher horizontal resolution. The images from HDMI output from the SR11 or SR7 AVCHD into these two TV's give the advantage to the Plasma. The picture is bigger, colour deeper and motion seems smooth. At the moment I view the Panasonic as acceptable but would certainly like to see a manufacturer actually say they are creating a 60p image from the interlace input. That I would like.

Ron Evans

Ken Ross · May 21st, 2008, 08:57 AM

Ron, you should look at the Pioneer Kuro displays. The 9th gen is coming out very shortly. The 8th gen have been recognized as the best flat panels ever in every review written. Many of these reviews have characterized the Kuros as the 'best TV ever, regardless of technology'. When you see a properly calibrated Kuro display, you would never consider going back to CRTs for anything! :)

May 21st, 2008, 12:10 AM	#123
Wacharapong Chiowanich Major Player Join Date: May 2008 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 400	1080i Sony CRT The other day I stopped by a friend's house that happened to have a 32" 1080i Sony CRT TV bought about 4 years ago at the cost of about a fine 50" 1080p LCD set made by most makers today. What surprised me most about it was not the progress of the technology or the cost-effectiveness of viewing today's HD movies. It was the sheer image quality of displaying my HDV footage from my ancient Sony HC-1E (I'm in a PAL land) via the camera's analog component output and my friend's AVCHD footage from his CX-7 also via component. Not only the video looked great by any standard, there were no perceptible artifacts like trailing, blockiness and no hint of noise despite the fact that part of the footage had been shot with gain up to about 12 dB! SD Hollywood movies via $100 DVD player and component scaled up superbly too compared with displaying the same movies on the Sony dealer's new 32" 100Hz 1080p LCD set via HDMI. I couldn't remember the model but it and a few similar models have long disappeared from the market where I live. I suspect Sony has stopped making them for sometime now. What a pity. The real downside appears to be the size and weight when compared to the LCD or plasma sets. This makes me wish somebody revived all the dead interlaced hi-def CRTs or came up with an affordable 1080 or 720/60p cameras soon. Wacharapong

May 16th, 2008, 12:45 PM	#121
Bob Kittleson New Boot Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: AZ Posts: 16	I finally got a chance to play with the different frame rates on my Canon HF100. With my particular equipment, I get the same result as Ken: video recoded in 30p does not reproduce motion as smoothly as 60i. The difference was most noticeable during panning, where 30p looked a little jumpy while 60i looked smooth. For playback, the HF100 was connected directly to a JVC HD-56FH97 display (60hz LCOS 1080p) via HDMI. Similar JVCs displays did a good job of deinterlacing in the hometheatermag tests (http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1107hook2/), but I have no clue if they are able to properly apply a simple weave to deinterlace 30p content in a 60i stream. Regardless, the end result for me is that 60i looks smoother, so it will be my default recording mode.

May 16th, 2008, 05:38 PM	#122
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Can't say I blame you Bob! ;)

May 21st, 2008, 05:40 AM	#124
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Wacharapong, until about 2 years ago I also had a CRT HDTV. It was a Panasonic 34" Tau model. I'm not sure what you're comparing your friend's Sony CRT to in terms of today's technology and brands, but I can tell you that both my Pioneer & Fujitsu plasmas blew away the overall picture quality of the CRT. That Panasonic Tau HDTV was very highly regarded in reviews although I felt the comparable Sony 34" HDTV was a bit better. I never see noise, trailing or blockiness on the Pioneer Kuro plasma that I use for my primary viewing. The only noise I'll ever see is that which was recorded due to very poor lighting conditions and can even be seen on the camera's LCD. If a display is masking noise that was actually recorded by the camera, then the display is actually not presenting an accurate image. There is no doubt in my mind that the best plasmas (not LCDs) produce a superior overall picture to consumer CRTs that are still around. Yes, you might find one picture parameter (black level) that still remains superior on the best CRTs, but the overall picture quality is better IMO than consumer CRTs and the latest generation of Pioneer Kuros tremendously narrows the gap even on black level to the point where it's truly not significant. When you factor in picture degrading issues that don't exist on plasmas but do on CRTs such as focus, linearity, convergence, color purity and others, the overall presentation is just better on the best plasmas. My HD videos as well as broadcast HD surely looks much better on my Kuro than any consumer CRT I've ever seen. Now if you're talking about a $30,000 professional 24" CRT HD monitor, that's another story. But to be honest, I wouldn't even trade that for the sheer cinematic feel of a 60", top-notch plasma.

May 21st, 2008, 08:50 AM	#125
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	I had Sony HiScan 1080i TV that my daughter now has in her basement room. It does produce really nice smooth images that I still feel are slightly better than the deinterlacing of the 1080P Panasonic Plasma that I have now. The Panasonic does a better job with SD TV than the Sony and of course is much higher horizontal resolution. The images from HDMI output from the SR11 or SR7 AVCHD into these two TV's give the advantage to the Plasma. The picture is bigger, colour deeper and motion seems smooth. At the moment I view the Panasonic as acceptable but would certainly like to see a manufacturer actually say they are creating a 60p image from the interlace input. That I would like. Ron Evans

May 21st, 2008, 08:57 AM	#126
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Ron, you should look at the Pioneer Kuro displays. The 9th gen is coming out very shortly. The 8th gen have been recognized as the best flat panels ever in every review written. Many of these reviews have characterized the Kuros as the 'best TV ever, regardless of technology'. When you see a properly calibrated Kuro display, you would never consider going back to CRTs for anything! :)