consumer vs. professional formats, and 24p again.

Heath McKnight · July 23rd, 2006, 09:24 AM

And how one uses it, too. My DP Jon Fordham made my great use with an HD10 and a decent light kit. Check out the article here. I don't doubt the AVCHD will look great when used right, just like any camera out there.

heath

Ash Greyson · July 23rd, 2006, 09:51 AM

I think most of us you have messed with it or seen it all agree that the eventual goal is less compressed and that we will eventually get there. Right now, all the semantics are really about when it will happen. While people currently slam HDV for its long GOP, there are plenty of people using it and making a living. Sure in the broadcast world they like to limit its use but there are other ways to use it. My only thing is that it is hard for me to get very excited about introducing another MORE compressed format...

ash =o)

Heath McKnight · July 23rd, 2006, 10:01 AM

Ash,

Compression means nothing to me when I use HDV. It looks GREAT and edits great, etc. I think the Z1, HD100 and the XL H1 are amazing cameras, despite the compression. I used the HVX200 for a month earlier this year and enjoyed it just as much as the Z1, etc., despite having lower compression.

It's not about how much compression, but how the compression is done. That's what makes or breaks a camera.

heath

Wayne Morellini · July 23rd, 2006, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

I think most of us you have messed with it or seen it all agree that the eventual goal is less compressed and that we will eventually get there. Right now, all the semantics are really about when it will happen. While people currently slam HDV for its long GOP, there are plenty of people using it and making a living. Sure in the broadcast world they like to limit its use but there are other ways to use it. My only thing is that it is hard for me to get very excited about introducing another MORE compressed format...

Ash, read my post above, it can happen now. I am currently getting ready to look for a Component/VGA/RGB/HDMI to GigE Ethernet data cable (not the normal extender but as a data file) and if not, suggest it to some FPGA people I found discussing something like it. Admittedly, you might need a twin Gige cable, but you should be able to fit basic 1080p and 720p through it. With some just minor compression techniques, even 10 bits should fit. If somebody else would like to hunt it down, it will probably get done ten times quicker though. This could be done with usb2/firewire even, but you would be restricted to 720p normally. I would wan tit to be programmed with a cameras specific component data timings, or to auto sync and remember them. Crazy I know, but we are literally a little ADC and FPGA away with GigE conditioned back end, away from such a solution.

Ash Greyson · July 23rd, 2006, 02:40 PM

HDV, DVCproHD, etc. tend to fall off when editing in those native modes. It becomes much more pronounced when squeezed down for broadcast, projected, etc.

I know that you CAN do uncompressed now but it aint cheap. I think most people are going to wait until it is the same price as current tech.

ash =o)

Wayne Morellini · July 23rd, 2006, 11:25 PM

Low compression, like visually lossless, is what I was suggesting as well as lossless (which achieves 2:1+ less space). At the moment their is $1000 card that will take in uncompressed, tag that onto a$1000 system and buy lots of drives, or transcode to Cineform RAW (more thousands). So the price is dramatically less, and in future even less again.

The doable price of low compassion is a camera, device, like I suggest that transfers to GigE, $100, small computer/laptop with fast drives or compression software $1000. There is compression FPGA going on at Open cores, once through, the price can be $300, maybe cheaper, Ethernet cable connected to Ethernet portable drive caddy, under $500 plus drives and cameras is now possible. The stream would be around 100-200Mb/s, less if it could apply to bayer. When you add the possibilities of 100GB SD cards, as mentioned IBM is planning on releasing within a year or so, if they do, prices drop dramatically (though I suspect they will charge $400 for the first commercialisations, but in reality, I suspect that the price could be effectively $50 or so in the long term).

But on the market today, you have a $1K card and the rest above, or the commercial, approx, $2.5K HDSDI uncompressed recorder project by Keith Wakeham, in the alternative imaging forum. Plans are to try to support component recording on it after HDSDI etc. So $2.5K plus camera. All that stands in the way is everybody saying it is impossible.

Ash Greyson · July 24th, 2006, 11:27 PM

Yes, that project combined with the XLH could really open up some crazy doors.

ash =o)

Wayne Morellini · July 25th, 2006, 03:19 AM

Component to GigE, project request:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=72223

I forgot to mention something that I spotted a week or so ago, that may make that 24Mb/s AVCHD advantage evaporate a bit. As this is no longer a AVCHD thread I have posted it here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=72226

July 23rd, 2006, 09:24 AM	#91
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	And how one uses it, too. My DP Jon Fordham made my great use with an HD10 and a decent light kit. Check out the article here. I don't doubt the AVCHD will look great when used right, just like any camera out there. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 23rd, 2006, 10:01 AM	#93
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Ash, Compression means nothing to me when I use HDV. It looks GREAT and edits great, etc. I think the Z1, HD100 and the XL H1 are amazing cameras, despite the compression. I used the HVX200 for a month earlier this year and enjoyed it just as much as the Z1, etc., despite having lower compression. It's not about how much compression, but how the compression is done. That's what makes or breaks a camera. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

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July 23rd, 2006, 09:51 AM	#92
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	I think most of us you have messed with it or seen it all agree that the eventual goal is less compressed and that we will eventually get there. Right now, all the semantics are really about when it will happen. While people currently slam HDV for its long GOP, there are plenty of people using it and making a living. Sure in the broadcast world they like to limit its use but there are other ways to use it. My only thing is that it is hard for me to get very excited about introducing another MORE compressed format... ash =o)

July 23rd, 2006, 02:40 PM	#95
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	HDV, DVCproHD, etc. tend to fall off when editing in those native modes. It becomes much more pronounced when squeezed down for broadcast, projected, etc. I know that you CAN do uncompressed now but it aint cheap. I think most people are going to wait until it is the same price as current tech. ash =o)

July 23rd, 2006, 11:25 PM	#96
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Low compression, like visually lossless, is what I was suggesting as well as lossless (which achieves 2:1+ less space). At the moment their is $1000 card that will take in uncompressed, tag that onto a$1000 system and buy lots of drives, or transcode to Cineform RAW (more thousands). So the price is dramatically less, and in future even less again. The doable price of low compassion is a camera, device, like I suggest that transfers to GigE, $100, small computer/laptop with fast drives or compression software $1000. There is compression FPGA going on at Open cores, once through, the price can be $300, maybe cheaper, Ethernet cable connected to Ethernet portable drive caddy, under $500 plus drives and cameras is now possible. The stream would be around 100-200Mb/s, less if it could apply to bayer. When you add the possibilities of 100GB SD cards, as mentioned IBM is planning on releasing within a year or so, if they do, prices drop dramatically (though I suspect they will charge $400 for the first commercialisations, but in reality, I suspect that the price could be effectively $50 or so in the long term). But on the market today, you have a $1K card and the rest above, or the commercial, approx, $2.5K HDSDI uncompressed recorder project by Keith Wakeham, in the alternative imaging forum. Plans are to try to support component recording on it after HDSDI etc. So $2.5K plus camera. All that stands in the way is everybody saying it is impossible.

July 24th, 2006, 11:27 PM	#97
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Yes, that project combined with the XLH could really open up some crazy doors. ash =o)

July 25th, 2006, 03:19 AM	#98
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Component to GigE, project request: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=72223 I forgot to mention something that I spotted a week or so ago, that may make that 24Mb/s AVCHD advantage evaporate a bit. As this is no longer a AVCHD thread I have posted it here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=72226