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-   -   Panasonic Announces HDC-SD1 AVCHD Camcorder (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/avchd-format-discussion/79187-panasonic-announces-hdc-sd1-avchd-camcorder.html)

Peter Solmssen November 8th, 2006 04:07 AM

Pansonic Announce AVCHD Cam
 
The press release with extensive details on the SD based model as well as another DVD based model can be found in machine translation at:
http://translate.google.com/translat...006-17,GGGL:en
The SD model is to be available in Japan on December 1, the DVD model in mid-December.

Wes Vasher November 8th, 2006 08:46 AM

Some tidbits...
 
This camera is very small and SD cards only on one of them, very cool.

Some tidbits...

HDMI 1.2a
1080i, 1440x1080 video recording
6,9, or 13Mbps
Microphone port
USB 2
Internal battery bay on SD Card model and external on DVD model

Jerry Jones November 8th, 2006 04:32 PM

Panasonic Announces HDC-SD1 AVCHD Camcorder
 
Panasonic's HDC-SD1 AVCHD camcorder page is now up in Japan:

http://tinyurl.com/y53ctu

It's quite interesting, in my humble opinion.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Peter Solmssen November 8th, 2006 08:33 PM

Interesting that the less expensive DVD version has a viewfinder and the SD version does not.

Jemore Santos November 9th, 2006 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Solmssen
Interesting that the less expensive DVD version has a viewfinder and the SD version does not.

Where did you get that from? they both have...

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...nd-HDC-DX1.htm

Jerry Jones November 9th, 2006 01:46 AM

The official English press release by PANASONIC is now up:

http://tinyurl.com/yeb6pn

"Their high-sensitivity features also allow for shooting in poorly-lit situations - for example, as low as six lux."

Amazing, if true.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Peter Solmssen November 9th, 2006 03:15 AM

The specifications on the Panasonic site list a viewfinder for the DVD model and show just a dash in the viewfinder space for the SD model. There are lots of good pictures, and I see no evidence of a viewfinder on the SD model. I think Camcorderinfo got it wrong.

Wes Vasher November 9th, 2006 09:48 AM

It's strange that the DVD model is cheaper as it includes a viewfinder+dvd writer. The extra cost of the SD card model must be in the bundled SD card, what other explanation could there be? If the DX1 can also record to SD card I think that would make that more popular.

Steve Nunez November 9th, 2006 10:04 AM

As soon as someone get's an editing workflow sorted out (as well as support in NLE's) these things should take off!

Wayne Morellini November 9th, 2006 11:04 AM

I was surprised that nobody had already posted on News when I posted my thread on the announcement. I guess this was moved from there first.

The SD1 version sounds more like what I would expect from one of those $799 h264 cameras talked about earlier in the year. I wonder if the price will fall when higher spec versions come.

Wayne Morellini November 9th, 2006 11:39 AM

What is this progressive mode listed under shutter?:

http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools


It also mentions progressive CCD's on the first page:

http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools


I wonder if the HDMI will do the progressive frames.

Hse Kha November 9th, 2006 11:47 AM

I am very dissapointed. I was expecting something much smaller, with higher resolution and better bit rate. 8GB SD cards are already just $250 so why not have 24Mbits/s? And 520K CCDs? Please! And it weighs more than the Canon HV10! 490g for this versus 480g for the HV10.

Cliff Gilmour November 9th, 2006 12:40 PM

wow, no component output, just HDMI! Is there a way to convert HDI to component?

Jerry Jones November 9th, 2006 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff Gilmour
wow, no component output, just HDMI! Is there a way to convert HDI to component?

There appears to be a component output.

Take a second look at the photos.

The component output is also listed by CamcorderInfo.com's article:

http://tinyurl.com/y9sdxt

"The new Panasonics include HDMI terminals, as well as AV and component jacks."

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Thomas Smet November 9th, 2006 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Nunez
As soon as someone get's an editing workflow sorted out (as well as support in NLE's) these things should take off!

I still say the best workflow is to use an Intensity card and capture the AVCHD through HDMI into a mjpeg based Blackmagic HD AVI file and edit that way. Yes the filesize is larger but it is still small enough to fit the bandwidth of a single SATA harddrive. The quality may not be any better but the editing will flow much better on the mjpeg files compared to editing the native AVCHD files.

CPU power will get better and NLE's may be able to edit AVCHD footage in the future but even then it is going to be slow for FX and realtime processing. Using a different codec such as mjpeg (through Intensity and HDMI) or Cineform (if they ever add AVCHD support) will allow the cpu and gpu to be used for FX and realtime processing.

Wes Vasher November 10th, 2006 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet
I still say the best workflow is to use an Intensity card and capture the AVCHD through HDMI into a mjpeg based Blackmagic HD AVI file and edit that way.

That's what I was thinking too Thomas. Do you know if you can capture directly to Blackmagic's JPEG codec from the camera or do you have to first capture uncompressed and then transcode? I couldn't find this answer on their Intensity site and am about to Email them about it.

It would be great of course like you say to capture directly to a JPEG codec as you wouldn't need a disk array like with the uncompressed.

Wayne Morellini November 10th, 2006 09:16 AM

I talked to my local store today, and was told that Panasonic plans a range of hard drive cameras next year, and that JVC might have their HD hard drive camera out by Christmas.

Intensity will record to Photo Jpeg live as far as I know. It was discussed in the news thread on the AVCHD that was taken down to be repaired. Chris was planning to put it back up again, but it looks like it didn't. It had most of the answers on Intensity's HDMI capture.

Wayne Morellini November 10th, 2006 09:18 AM

I'm still curious, will this HDMI be interlace?

Wes Vasher November 10th, 2006 09:36 AM

The Panasonic site says it sends 1080i or 480p out over HDMI, whatever that means.

Paulo Teixeira November 10th, 2006 05:20 PM

Besides the included memory card I think the other reason why the HDC-SD1 is more expensive is because itís more attractive to the consumer because of the compact size and the DVD version looks awkward. At least thatís my opinion.

Wayne Morellini November 10th, 2006 10:10 PM

I agree, but the reality should be different, the disk mechanism costs, and the disks cost less.

Wes, can we trust that to be the full story.

Unless it has progressive, I think I will skip now. I would prefer 50fps progressive.

Jerry Jones November 10th, 2006 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira
Besides the included memory card I think the other reason why the HDC-SD1 is more expensive is because itís more attractive to the consumer because of the compact size and the DVD version looks awkward. At least thatís my opinion.

True, however, they're also banking on the fact some consumers will want a camcorder that will provide "instant gratification" to those who simply want to pop the 8cm DVD disc out of the camcorder and then insert it into a Blu-ray Disc player and watch the high definition display.

But I agree the DVD version looks odd.

The official page for that model is here:

http://panasonic.jp/dvc/dx1/

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Wes Vasher November 11th, 2006 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini
I agree, but the reality should be different, the disk mechanism costs, and the disks cost less.

Wes, can we trust that to be the full story.

Unless it has progressive, I think I will skip now. I would prefer 50fps progressive.

I can't see how it aquires anything but 1080i. There doesn't seem to be any info anywhere that would say otherwise but we'll have to wait and see to be sure I suppose. I would prefer progressive but at least they included HDMI and a Microphone port. Can't wait to see what the video looks like.

Mike Lewis December 7th, 2006 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wes Vasher
Can't wait to see what the video looks like.

Stills appear to look like this:
http://www.simplydv.co.uk/newsitems/...c-sd1_dx1.html
I look forward to seeing some motion stuff somewhere!

Wayne Morellini December 7th, 2006 05:07 PM

If it has video quality like that, it would be acceptable. This is what I expected from the higher latitude, bigger sensor pads, in the pixel shifted CCD's. Looks like the Sanyo HD1 a little, but without the compromises. But video quality can always be dumbed down.

Too expensive, if they only had progressive 1080 24mb/s, or half the price. As it is it has to compete with better HDV cameras. I would love to see the video reviews.

Peter Solmssen December 7th, 2006 06:39 PM

Interesting that the bulkier but cheaper DVD model has a viewfinder and the SD model does not -- though I am not sure how useful it is with the battery sticking out of the back.

The SD-1 is attractive for me, but I would like to know what Sanyo's next move will be. I have certainly been pleased with the HD-1, and AVCHD seen so far doesn't look that fabulous on the HDTV.

Paulo Teixeira December 8th, 2006 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Solmssen
The SD-1 is attractive for me, but I would like to know what Sanyo's next move will be. I have certainly been pleased with the HD-1, and AVCHD seen so far doesn't look that fabulous on the HDTV.

Lest not forget that Samsung has yet to release their own H.264 camcorder and so far itís been delayed.

Wayne Morellini December 9th, 2006 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Solmssen
Interesting that the bulkier but cheaper DVD model has a viewfinder and the SD model does not -- though I am not sure how useful it is with the battery sticking out of the back.

The SD-1 is attractive for me, but I would like to know what Sanyo's next move will be. I have certainly been pleased with the HD-1, and AVCHD seen so far doesn't look that fabulous on the HDTV.

Maybe they will all show at CES (Samsung Sanyo, JVC). The Panasonics are coming in March in the States. Maybe the other cameras will be similar. I wish they would put a HD1a like camera in a Pocket PC phone (but much better, like 19mb/s, fast aperture, better sensor).

John Godden December 9th, 2006 03:59 PM

FL of the new Pani corders?
 
Does anyone know how to translate the listed FL for this new Pani camcorder into 35mm equivalent?

Is the conversion just the ratio of the 1/4" to 35mm (5.51:1)? I don't this so because the #'s just don't 'add up' given the stated FL's of Does anyone know how to translate the listed FL for this new Pani camcorder into 35mm equivalent? The listed FL is 3-30 mm.

Thanks
JohnG

Luc Saint-Elie December 12th, 2006 11:37 AM

Pana SD1 AVCHD
 
Hello,

I had the opportunity to use one during one day, and my first (and ok.. very light) sensations are :

1- I small, looks very close to a HC3 very different from previous Pana SD Card camcorder
2- no viewfinder, small but good screen
3- obvious command organization, no need to open the book
4- can accept a mic (mic input)
5- rather quick start

for the rest it's like any other small camcorder.

The results ar rather good. I've been immensely disappointed by Sony AVCHD that provides good images by good light but has a high, too high, far too high noise level as soon s the light goes down
It's not a measurement -like advice, just my eyes advice but Panasonic noise level seem much much better
By good light the images are surprisingly good.

I think its a rather good camera probably better then the Sony

The problem right now is the software to convert files I've not seen it but I've been told that it's no way better than the Sony one and the Sony one is awful.

Luc

Guy Bruner December 12th, 2006 07:19 PM

I've been viewing some AVCHD clips shot with the HDC-SD1 and it is difficult to get playback with some software. I use Nero 7 to view the Sony M2TS files but it locks up with the Panasonic MTS/M2TS files (don't know the difference yet). However, Windows Media Player 11 will play back both the Sony and Panasonic clips with no problems. I'm using an Intel E6300 Core 2 Duo system with 3GB/sec drives.

However, the video I've seen looks very good. I'm waiting to see some intimate lighting footage, but the low light shots I've seen so far are better on the Panasonic. Need more examples before I can say for sure it is significantly better.

I can say I'm disappointed with the features on the SD1. It has an enclosed battery, no EVF, no headphones jack (although it provides a headphones adapter for the AV port), no accessory shoe and only shoots 1080i video. I was expecting more from Panasonic at the $1500 level. After all, the DV953 just about killed the Sony TRV950 when it came in under $1500 a few years ago.

Jerry Jones December 12th, 2006 09:48 PM

Consultant Tore Nordahl -- in August -- wrote an opinion piece.

http://tinyurl.com/vfgn3

His comment:

"Look for new semi-professional AVCHD models selling for as little as $3,000 from Panasonic."

Anybody heard anything to support this statement?

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Guy Bruner December 12th, 2006 10:47 PM

I've now seen some intimate lighting video clips from the HDC-SD1 and they are impressive. Better quality than the Sony clips I have seen and at lower light levels. I'm really looking forward to reviewing this camcorder.

Wayne Morellini December 12th, 2006 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Jones
His comment:

"Look for new semi-professional AVCHD models selling for as little as $3,000 from Panasonic."

Anybody heard anything to support this statement?

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

When talking to the local camera store one of the bosses to me of a range of HD Hard drive camcorders next year, but I am unsure wherever he meant JVC or Panasonic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Bruner
I can say I'm disappointed with the features on the SD1. It has an enclosed battery, no EVF, no headphones jack (although it provides a headphones adapter for the AV port), no accessory shoe and only shoots 1080i video. I was expecting more from Panasonic at the $1500 level...

Or a $499 level camera.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luc Saint-Elie
Hello,

The results ar rather good. I've been immensely disappointed by Sony AVCHD that provides good images by good light but has a high, too high, far too high noise level as soon s the light goes down
It's not a measurement -like advice, just my eyes advice but Panasonic noise level seem much much better
By good light the images are surprisingly good.

I think its a rather good camera probably better then the Sony
Luc


So, guys, how does it compare to HDV cameras like the HC1 or MV10 for noise, latitude, low light and picture quality?

How does the camera compare to this following example. I got to test an HC3 in store the other day. There was a lot of noise, in the well lit store, latitude was not spectacular, but not bad either. It was through HDMI to an HD panel, and I could see the noise evident even looking at a bright grey panel. So noise level was high. I have a theory that when colors are filmed the noise from the sensor pads that do not register that colour well adds to the noise of the pixel. On the HC3, areas of pure primary color had very high noise, even though they were bright. Complementaries were much less noise, and whites had none discernible. The same thing is visible on the Sanyo HD1 too.


Thanks

Wayne.

Cliff Gilmour January 11th, 2007 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Jones
There appears to be a component output.

Take a second look at the photos.

"The new Panasonics include HDMI terminals, as well as AV and component jacks."

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

The Japanese version uses the D-Terminal component cable. Is there anyone who knows where I could buy a component cable for the HD SD1 for usage in Europe/USA , i.e. red green blue rca plugs?

Jerry Jones January 28th, 2007 01:40 PM

SimplyDV review conclusion:

"The (Panasonic) HDC-SD1 is an excellent solid-state 3CCD device that currently sets the benchmark for tapeless high definition video camera technology in the consumer market."

"When tested alongside the Sony HDR-SR1 (and pointing at exactly the same subject whilst viewing on identical HD monitor screens), the pictures were markedly better than the Sony's - especially in the more lowly lit sectors of the screen."

"The Sony's images featured quite high levels of rectangular blockiness whereas the SD1's (and DX1's) equivalent images were beautifully clear and well rendered."

"The differences weren't just mildly worthy of note, they were immediately apparent - even to the untrained eye."

Link to SimplyDV Web site review: http://tinyurl.com/ysbw53

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Paulo Teixeira February 11th, 2007 03:02 PM

Here is another positive review about this camcorder. Itís good but like the SimplyDV review it doesnít compare the picture quality to HDV camcorders and Iím going to have to disagree about this part:

ďThere are also options for manual focus, white balance, aperture as well as soft skin mode and tele macro. In other words, more than enough tweaks for 99 percent of the camcorder users out there.Ē

In other words, only one percent of users will complain about the camcorder not having a focusing ring around the lens. Iím certain the percentage is higher than that especially for someone paying at least 1000 dollars for a camcorder.

http://i4u.digitaltrends.com/review4333_main21673.html

Paulo Teixeira February 11th, 2007 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Jones
Consultant Tore Nordahl -- in August -- wrote an opinion piece.

His comment:

"Look for new semi-professional AVCHD models selling for as little as $3,000 from Panasonic."

Anybody heard anything to support this statement?

Sorry for being 2 months late but I also read that several months ago and although he sounds reliable, I earnestly think he got that rumor from me.

Here is another quote from him
http://www.freshdv.com/2006/08/will-...sional-hd.html

“I expect Panasonic to announce a HVX200-type camcorder with AVCHD CODEC and mini-Blue-ray Disc recording, in addition to SecureDigital and/or P2 soon. Panasonic badly needs a semi-professional HD camcorder line-up by end of 2006, not to lose market share.”

Almost word for word, this sounds very similar to what I wrote either on this board or camcorderinfo. I don’t feel like going back but believe me, this isn’t a joke.

I literally made that up back then. I also said that Sony may release a Z1u type camcorder with Blu-Ray disc drive as well.


I still would love to see my rumors becoming true!

Jerry Jones February 14th, 2007 08:17 PM

Tore Nordahl's latest column on this subject is interesting: http://www.coax.tv/

But Nordahl's most interesting comment, in my humble opinion, had to do with Grass Valley's new "Infinity" pro camcorder, which can utilize the JPEG 2000 codec.

A lot of people in the pro community have wondered about the Infinity's native pixel matrix.

I think NAB in Vegas is going to be especially interesting this year.

Jerry Jones

Paulo Teixeira February 14th, 2007 09:27 PM

Based on my original prediction back then it would have been a DVX100 type camcorder with Blu-Ray and SD memory card recordings so you can move footage from one place to another. The price would be around 3500.

Anyway if Panasonic releases a camera with AVC intra 50, it would guarantee be a HVX200 replacement and being priced at 3 to 4 thousand dollars would be pretty low. 4,500 to 5,000 seams more likely when you consider the price of the Canon XH-A1 and the HVX200.

In reality, Sony is more likely to release a Z1u type camcorder with Blu-Ray than Panasonic releasing a HVX type camcorder with Blu-Ray. But then again, a lot of people would complain if Sony abandons tape.

I have a new idea for a camcorder that I believe Panasonic would be interested in. They should use something like this for a DVC30 replacement. http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=63051 It wouldn’t be too expensive to implement since it has a price tag of around 600 dollars. Because Panasonic was able to squeeze three ¼” CCDs into the SD1, they could probably squeeze either CCDs or CMOS chips as big as 1/3.5” and still be around the size of the DVC30. On top of that they should allow you to transfer your footage to SD cards. If they did all that and priced it at around 2,500 to 3,000, it will be an extremely popular item.

If only I gave Panasonic that idea several months ago, because we would have been seeing a camcorder like that at NAB.



If you think about, if Panasonic looses the tape drive of the HVX200, they could easily make the chips bigger than 1/3” and/or add more P2 card slots.


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