Avid Xpress Users?
 

I'm thinking of purchasing Avid Xpress Pro HD 5.5 to run on an HP workstation... does anyone here used Avid Xpress with the JVC HDV codec? I just wanted to make sure that this version of software is compatible with the codec and that it performs well in HD.

The PC is a HP xw8000 2 x 3.2GHz Xeon/2GB RAM/SCSI/Quadro FX3000. Thanks all.

Another chance for me to rant about Avid.

The company has NO Support for HDV 1 at all outside of VERY POOR support for HDV 30P. That's it. No 24/25/50/60P at all. Avid has been blatantly LYING for well over a year and half about when the support was coming.

Do not expect it in the next release of Avid either. Last we heard from the horrible liars is beginning of 07'. Still not here, nor will it be here with the Universal Binary 2.7 release. The whole situation is absurd. By FCP for Mac, or Canopus or Premiere for PC.

May Avid please prove me wrong.

The only option is to capture the raw .m2t in some third part program (or use a Firestore) and transcode it in MPEG Streamclip to DNxHD). This will work in Avid.

Let me add to Steve's rant; I am leaving the ProHD camp (HDV1) and Avid's total lack of support is partly to blame. There are other reasons, of course, but my painful experience with Avid was certainly not helping to keep me within the ranks of HDV1 users.

You have two choices; use other NLE or other cameras. Plain and simple.

Work-around...
 

Steve,

Is there a third party capture program that you would recommend to achieve this work-around? I assume it could exist side by side on the PC? The reason I prefer the Avid product is that I already own a Meridian system and need the project compatibility....that and I just can't stand the alternative NLE's (I was spoiled on an $120K Avid when I learned NL Editing). Thanks.

Jon, In response to your original question, your HP workstation should work more than fine with editing HDV1 especially in DNX HD110 which is a very efficient and good looking codec. There is a 3rd party capture program called CapDVHS and used in conjunction with MPEG streamclip you can capture and convert 720/24p. However, you should be able to capture 720/30p directly into Avid Xpress Pro. Once you edit your sequence you will need the Mojo for real-time downconvert back to tape, (Betacam SP).

As you can tell, there is a lot frustration with Avid and the overall workflow on Xpress isn't near as straightforward as it should be. Another program that has good JVC HDV support is Avid Liquid. The pro version that comes with a breakout box is under $1,000, however you won't have the project/bin exchange with your Media Composer. But, I use a combined workflow Liquid/Xpress, (when I'm not on a super tight deadline). If i need to work fast in 24p I use Avid Liquid. Check this thread,

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=81159

Good Luck, David

David, yes, you can capture 720/30p directly via FW but Avid MOJO does not support HDV1 and it will not downconvert it to SD. In fact, it won't even provide client monitor, neither in a single field SD nor any other form. As far as I understand your described workflow will work with HDV2 material - in other words HDV 1080i - but there is no easy way of getting 720p out of Avid in SD.

On a recent project I ended up exporting the m2t stream back to tape and recapturing the tape back into a 30i SD project via downconversion through the JVC HD50 deck. But any type of colour correction or effects you are flying blindfolded using only your computer monitors. Avid will tell you that they have a full screen function but that is not good enough for CC. Pain, pain , pain.... what can I say.

David,

Thanks for your response. Is the Liquid interface/functionality similar to Media Composer? I'm just getting tired of re-adapting to different interfaces all the time. Also, I'm shooting alot of material with the M2 adapter and need to re-invert...I heard the Liquid can do this inversion without resolution loss...is this true, or is there a third party software involved?

Jiri, This process works for me. Capture with 720/30 HDV Project preset. Once everything is captured, start a 30i project and then import the 720/30p bins into the 30i. Apply a 16:9 or 14:9 format to the timeline. (Scaling tools in Xpress suck 4:3 squeezes) You will have to do a transcode to layback without Mojo but it should work otherwise. I know the project tab in 1080i flips back and forth to 30i, but this is a workaround for 720/30. Try it if you get a chance.

Jon, Once you understand the symbols and nomenclature it works a little like MC, but the interface is much more ridgid. So it won't be an automatic "WOW this is like Media Composer. There is a Cineform capture tool called HDLink ($200). It has an auto M2 flip function when selected that will image flip upon capture that was developed specifically for the Red Rock Micro by the two companies. I'm not sure Liquid does this inversion upon capture.

Huh?
 

OK...everyone please forgive my ignorance. I looked at the Avid Xpress Pro interface and I saw an option for 720p / 23.### HDV. What am I missing here? Is it just the JVC codec it doesn't accept?

I have the latest version of Xpress Pro (5.6.4) and there is NO 720/24P HDV option. There is a 720/23.976 option, but it does not include HDV. There is no other Camera in HDV that uses 720P at 24 frames besides the JVC and it DOES NOT work.

Jon,

Steve is absolutely 100% correct. There is not a preset for 720/24 HDV in Xpress or even Media Composer. The preset he is referring to will edit/capture DVCPro HD 720/24.

If you want to edit 720/24p HDV in Avid you have to convert it using MPEG Streamclip ($25 by the time you add Apple QT MPEG support) If you want to edit in HDV then that conversion converts with 3:2 pulldown to 720/30p and DNXHD 110. This process takes me around 1 min per 10 to 20 seconds of material. Not a very fast process. Then you set up a 720/30 HDV project and import the converted clips into a bin.

It's no doubt a pain getting everything into and out of Avid with HDV1.

Steve and David,

Thanks for the clarification. This whole thing is disheartening because I love Avid and I don't like FCP much at all. It seems to me that Avid is phasing the Xpress product. Also, someone said there is software that can make FCP function somewhat like an Avid, just in terms of the interface. Is this true?

Well, you can map keyboard shortcuts in FCP (a bit late coming, that feature ;) to mimic what you're used to on Avid but if you love Avid the only real solution is using another app like Liquid to capture and transcode or get hold of the Convergent Design HDConnect LE or SI or MI, depending on your needs. However, you'd need at least MC Adrenaline to capture HD SDI. If you're happy with SD, then the Mojo SDI will work with these boxes from HDV1 acquired footage. It'll look much better than if you shoot in DV and you can always conform the footage later once Avid supports HDV1 properly. Yeah, right...

I think it's more likely that we'll see a cheaper I/O board for MC and AXPro that features HD SDI I/O before we'll see full HDV1 support, so I'm going the Convergent route and finishing in uncompressed SD for now. Btw, those Convergent boxes are superb.

Thanks David, I will try it.

Tony, I will look at the Convergence route again. Just like Jon, I would prefer to stay with Avid but the frustrations that they put me (and everybody else) through sometimes gets to me and makes me seriously look at the 'dark side'.

Avid does not work with 720/30 capture from JVC GY-HD100 or 200 or BR-HD50 or have consistent import .m2t from the FS4ProHD.

I have been back and forth with Avid since June 2006 (Doug Hansel and Avid engineer) and also with Focus (since early January this year).

So both parties are aware of the problem - each without solution to date. I do NOT want a workaround.. why, because I shouldn't have to. Avid is meant to work with the JVC gear (NAB 2005 press release).

Focus and Avid work GREAT in OMF.. .m2t Avid reports issues:

http://www.avid.com/exchange/forums/thread/185043.aspx

http://www.avid.com/exchange/forums/thread/44259.aspx

- even attempting to capture without TC or control from the drive (using it as a deck) the video (within Avid and within a few moments of hitting capture) begins skipping. This is the same results when trying to capture from deck/camera.

DR-HD100 helps a lot
 

All:

One of the best work-arounds in using HDV1 with Avid is to not deal with capturing tape at all. Shoot on the DR-HD100 hard drive. The .m2t files on the drive easily import into Avid. When importing, you choose one of the DNXHD codecs, and the .m2t files are transformed to DNXHD.

For output, export to one of several HD formats, or burn to DVD-HD or Blur Ray.

Yes, that's all very well if you're shooting 720p/30 but what about those of us in PAL land? There isn't even a 720p/25 project type yet, let alone native HDV1 support via firewire or data ingest from a Firestore. The only solid solution for us is the Convergent interface and for HD you have to cross-convert to 1080i and capture with at least MC Adrenaline with the HD option board. Sledgehammer to crack a nut, I'd say.

There's an Avid software update (AXPro through to Symph Nitris, as usual) due this month. I'll eat my hat if there's any HDV1 improvement in that release.

Yeah word is 5.7 should be out in about a week and will include 720p50 as a project type but no HDV1 support as yet. I say "as yet" with this foolish tiny amount of hope remaining that they will one day wake up and smell the JVC userbase.

As will I. There really is no chance though, from what I have heard. Pathetic really. NAB will mark two years of Avid promising HDV1 support. Two years. Pathetic.

I don't have the Firestore yet, maybe soon. But it does seem that if Firestore would add DNXHD wrapper/codec support in QT (like they have for Canopus AVI) then you could at least import/ edit in a 720p/60 project. So, then you covered with all of the 720/p frame rates here in North America. Then Avid only needs to get off their butts and offer 720p/50.

It should be possible because in MPEG streamclip, all of the DNXHD options are in Quicktime. I know Firestore offers OMF recording, but if I'm not mistaken, DNXHD are all MXF file formats. So, they would have to use MXF.

I'm just thinking out loud.

Yeah, DNx encoding direct to disk would be great but the data rate is probably too high for a single drive for the mastering codecs - it's equivalent to around uncompressed SD. Still, it would be great. The DNx codec is the only remaining reason I'm prepared to wait it out a bit longer. The Canopus HQ and HD codecs aren't bad but IMHO not close to DNx. For HDV acquisition, DNx is much more than good enough, I'd say.

Good point. So maybe they use DNXHD 75, or 90 or even 110. Ranging from 75 to 90 or 110 Mb/s. Then you could edit in DNXHD 145 or 220. I mean I can edit 110 on my internal notebook IDE drive. I'm sure there is more to it than throughput.

Maybe JVC can get Firestore and Avid to sit down and draw this up. I mean certainly Firestore has a lot to gain.

Am I looking through rose-colored glasses??? Probably.

I don't think the Firestore will be able to do this in it's current condition. Remeber, with the .MOV update, all it is doing is "Wrapping" the HDV file into a .MOV file, not transcoding it. DNxHD is entirely different, and would involve a complete transcode.

So it is just wrapping an m2t in .mov. Makes sense. Thanks for taking my glasses off.

Patrick, it DID work - somewhat. I edited a 7-minute project shot in HDV 720/30p using AXP on a Mac last September. It wasn't the most current version, I think it might have been 5.6.2 or 5.6.3. The piece was edited and exported back to tape as a m2t file. How is this possible? I don't know...one thought is that the show I edited was 100% MOS, so perhaps AXP can (or could) capture but either without audio or with audio out of sync - which I never checked. I recall that I had some clips that would not capture no matter what I tried and the only way to get them in was to turn audio in the capture window off. And also sometime to shorten them from say around 10 minutes to three chunks of 3-4 minutes.

So, yes, you are right, this is not a solution, not even a workaround. It's absurd and very frustrating that other (sometimes lesser software) can do it, yet Avid can't. Keep banging at Avid's door....I do too.

"MOS" Mit-on-sound or Man-on-street?

I am presuming mit-on-sound. As, for the clips that imported with the error, all audio drifts out of sync. Focus acknowledge the issue, as does Avid - but no fix yet.

Mit on sound - yes. While capturing, sometimes the record window in Avid would be skipping frames or freezing them every now and then but the captured clip was fine. Other times the capture would abort half way through and I would have to make the clips shorter in order to get them in. Yes, there is no solution yet, perhaps 5.7 will change that.

The story I heard was that MOS was "Mit out sound" from an old German director's mispronunciation of "With".

Makes a good story, anyway...

Heard back from Avid engineering - they are receiving an FS4ProHD from Focus on Monday and will begin testing. The thought is that the FS4ProHD records .m2t files differently than the FS100 (which is approved by Avid). According to Focus the file record is no different between the two drives.

So, Avid is moving forwards - slowly, but moving forwards.

Yeah, you are right...I heard the same story, now that you reminded me...:-) I guess it would be the most plausible of the urban legends out there.

he didn't mispronounce, the word "mit" is "with" in English.

Thank you for clarifying that. I was gonna but didn't even bother. BTW, a mispronunciation of the word "with" by a teuton would be "Vit"... But seriously speaking, I sure hope Avid is indeed working on this problem. I agree with him who said that Avid has a superior interface and I tremble to think of changing to a different NLE.

True, but one can imagine that he was trying to say "with", not intentionally using a German word in the sentence.

did 5.7 deliver on 720p?
 

I'm in a bit of a pinch. I'm hearing not-so-good reports (including this thread) about Avid Xpress Pro not liking 720p. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that I need to make a decision on purchasing the JVC GY-HD200 within the next 36 hours (it's complicated). I called Avid support and, while the HD200 does not appear on their list of approved devices, the tech did say that Xpress Pro will accept 720p/30. I also read on another forum that this cannot be accomplished through the Mojo -- you need to go directly to the host firewire port.

Can anyone shed some light on my conundrum?

tim

Tim,

Perhaps this will help you: http://www.avid.com/content/8927/SUP...20PRODUCTS.pdf

I believe the answer is yes for 720p/30 and I believe Mojo only works with SD. But please don't take my word for it. I'm still new to this world.

I would strongly suggest starting a thread on the Avid forum to get a definitive answer. (Although I'm sure you can a correct answer here as well, it just sounds like time is of the essence.)

The standard Mojo will only accept and process SD. The Mojo SDI, however, will accept HDV through the DV connector, or so the documentation that came with mine says. I haven't had a chance to try it yet, as I'm still upgrading machines in my office. As for 720p questions, I'm sorry, I can't help you there. I only have a 1080i camera at the moment.

Avid Work-Arounds
 

Tim,

My understanding is that Avid Xpress supports HDV1 (progressive HDV) at 30 frames per second, over firewire. To use all frame rates that HDV1 can produce with the Avid products, there are several work-arounds. Here are three that I know of:

1. Shoot on the JVC DR-HD100 hard drive. This way, no capture from tape is required. It's simply a file import. (You can still shoot tape as well, and have two copies of the footage.) Here's more info: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/f...l_id=MDL101710

2. Use a BR-HD50U JVC HDV deck with a Convergent Design MI Connect box. This combo delivers an uncompressed HD signal, that you can connect to the Avid. (This will only work if your Avid has uncompressed HD inputs. This may or may not be an option on your Avid.) Here's info on these products:

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/t...&feature_id=02

http://www.convergent-design.com/CD_...DConnectMI.htm

3. Use another NLE program for capture of the footage, and then import the footage into Avid Xpress. For example, Canopus (Grass Valley) Edius fully supports capture of JVC's HDV1 formats, in all frame rates. You can used Edius to capture, and then import those files into Avid Xpress Pro.

These are three work-arounds that I know of, and there's probably more.

Naturally, we hope that Avid will eventually have full native HDV1 support over firewire, as all of their major competitiors now have it.

Regards,

Xpress Pro - GY-HD200 conundrum
 

Carl,

Thanks for the timely reply. I was getting nervous. A couple of follow-ups for you:

1. You said "to use all of the frame rates". Does that mean there are some rates I'll be able to use without employing workarounds?

2. I was considering the promotional package which would give me the 100G drive along with the HD200. Is there a dub option on the camera that will allow me to transfer tape footage to the firestore? (and then capture to Xpress). I'll be shooting in New Zealand for a week and I'm sure the drive would fill up long before I would be ready to stop shooting. By the way, how fast is the turnaround time on receiving those promo items?

btw, I'll be looking at a new deck soon, probably in the new fiscal year. I recently discovered that Avid took my BR3000 off the approved device list after I purchased the deck and made the decision to go with Avid Studio. Timing is everything, I guess.

tim

Hi Tim,

As stated in my previous post, my understanding is that 720/30p is supported over firewire in Avid Xpress Pro. Perhaps someone on the forum can confirm this.

Your timing is good, as we are currently offering a free DRHD100GB60 with the purchase of the GY-HD200 camera. Yes, you can dub from tape to HDD.

Turn-around time is generally 2 to 4 weeks on promotional items, as long as there is good stock, and you follow the directions exactly on the claim form. I see a lot of claim forms that are delayed because instructions are not followed. If you are on a tight time line, then work with your local dealer and local JVC rep to expedite your claim.

Regards,

Tim,

There is a fourth firewire workflow: Download a free utility called CapDVHS. This is an m2t capture tool. It looks very stripped down but works fine. Capture m2t's. Then download a utility called MpegStreamclip. This is also a free utility except if you don't have Quicktime Pro, you will have to download a MPEG 2 component from Apple $25. Mpegstreamclip will point this out i think. (it's been a while). Anyway, MpegStreamclip will allow you to convert your m2t clips to any DnxHd, with a pulldown if need be. So both 24p and 30p will work in this case. This will allow you to import into any Avid project preset. But be prepared for a lot of time intensive crunching, depending on your computer, it can take around 10 minutes for every 30 seconds of raw footage.

I can confirm that Avid works fine with 720/30p over firewire with capture into Xpress and it looks great. It does not capture 720/24p. I have Avid Liquid, if I have to shoot 24p. Liquid works pretty well. But, over time I've grown to like the higher temporal resolution and motion of 30p so I haven't shot as much over the last 8 months in 24p. I don't know if it is just my own acceptance that Avid doesn't like 24p or 24f but I do think for my clients, 30p works great.

As a side note, I like my JVC 100, it makes very nice pictures and JVC service is good. I've had some issues in the past, all were resolved, with the great help of Carl, but i'm pretty sure that there all fixed in newer models. Carl Hicks is an oustanding Sales Support, nice guy, and really makes sure any issues are resolved if any.

Not to highjack the thread but, Carl, hope to see you at the IAV show here in Houston next week. I didn't know about the new 200 promotion. Looks like a steal with the FTE drive and battery promotion rolled into one. Was looking at Z7, but costs way too much for 960x1080, and XDCam not ready for solod state quite yet. I tought i was until I keep getting these video by the pound shoots. But now I'm back to 200. Need to eyeball 60p again.

Hope to see you next week,

and I hope this helps, gotta shoot this morning.

Cheers, David