Avid disappoints us again!
 

http://www.avidstore.com/us/index.cf...&categoryid=69

Version 5.7 (Xpress Pro) and 2.7 (Media Composer) are now available for another $50. No HDV 24 Frame support at all.

Not surprised.

I've been on the phone to someone at Avid who's just as steamed as us about the whole thing (in particular charging for this upgrade when for Windows users it's really a minor update). There's some internal politics going on that are causing delays for us getting proper HDV support, but it sounds like there's a movement within Avid starting to push very hard for it. It still ain't gunna be as soon as we'd like, but at least there's people in there fighting for us.

It's good at least 720p50 is finally in there, not the p25 or p24 we need but at least for p25 it means there's a slightly more plausible workflow with the need to transcode to 1080p gone.

If you ask me, it's unacceptable. But it also indicates that Avid has no interest in HDV 720p - or let me re-word it - what they are doing is really a boycott of JVC. Politics? Likely. It might be worth noting that this release also hasn't addressed support for Sony's 24/30p over 1080i (HVR-V1 series cameras). And that's just being very un-responsive.

The Canons (XL-H1,A1,G1, HV20) are also not supported, although that is the same format and pulldown as the new Sony. JVC should have been a long time ago though considering how long it has been out.

Get Final Cut Pro.

One of the reasons I decided to go with FCP instead of Avid Xpress was because I felt Final Cut Pro would be a little more responsive in making the codecs for 24p support with my HD100. They released the 720/24p last year. It actually took Apple a while to do this but at least they kept their word.

Why is it so hard to make codecs for all these different capture modes? Do they have to re-write the software to support it? I just don't understand what is so hard about it.

Also, I don't think Avid is boycotting 720p. 3 major networks including FOX, ESPN & ABC broadcast with it, so the format isn't going anywhere for a while.

I wonder what software these networks use?

Dear oh dear.

These are exactly the same reasons I ditched Avid in favour of FCP. I got tired of being the last to get support for new codecs and constantly being told we are working on it when evidently they weren't.

FCP is inferior in interface terms but I can live with that but I couldn't live with the lack of support for cameras/codecs.

From the outside it looks like Avid want you to buy Liquid or MC and XPP doesn't really have too much of a role any more. MC for offlining MCA projects and Liquid for the smaller outfit/all-in-one crowd.

XPP was way ahead of the competition at version 3.5 but it's a sad joke now.

TT

Avid is not against 720P so much as HDV in general. Overall, they have not been great in delivering that support.

As far as the programming, Canopus released support within weeks. WEEKS! Avid simply DOES NOT WANT TO.

And I have FCP (long before I bought Avid actually). I switched to Avid because I do like it, but have returned to FCP since I bought the JVC HD100.

First off. From what I can tell the major reason for this minor release is offering universal binary for the MAC platform. This is a definite recode but next they have to recode for Vista. That could take some time. And there is a siginifigant amount of recoding for each codec and video platform. All using different frame rates, codec algos etc. Currently, Canopus, Adobe (MAC version coming), Newtek, and Apple only have to code on one side. However, that doesn't excuse Avid by promising support 2 years ago and still not delivering. They have had plenty of time.

But now that Universal Binary is out things should start to move faster. I'm sure that there is politics involved therefore I would assume and hope that Avid is going to announce more features other than just Univ. binary at NAB, which is just 3 weeks away. At least they have 720/50 for the PAL folks.

Here's keeping my fingers crossed for 24 & 25p HDV.

Speaking of NAB: I do think this will be a crossroads for Avid and how I view the platform or use it in the future. All of the signs are there that Apple is going to release version 6.0 as a major release because they're holding a preNAB Press Conference. If Avid doesn't match them with a strong version 3 Media Composer and/or version 6 Xpress Pro, then it could be a big turning point for me.

Just a friendly note....

Saying that something "sucks" is usually a good way to insure that your post will be edited or deleted. Please try to find another way to express your sentiments....

Thanks.

Just another friendly note, I will NOT tolerate profanity or vulgarity on this site.

Adopt a professional level of business communication or post elsewhere on the web. Thanks in advance,

Yes, it really looks like Avid will not introduce ProHD support besides Liquid. It seems they think Liquid is enough. Oh boy, are they wrong. Liquid is horrible and I really don't like it. I'm only stuck with it now because it's the only one that seems to work OK with ProHD apart from FCP, (I really don't want to go Mac) but I really don’t like Liquid. Too slow for editing long form projects among other limitations. Is there anything else out there that works with ProHD 24p and 25p besides Vegas, FCP or Premiere? Even if Edius does, I don't like Edius. It feels too amateur and awkward. At least version 3 did. I’m looking for something to edit long form projects that is fast and has good media management. NewTek SpeedEdit looked like it could have been it. But it seems to be bugged and way too limited and crude. Also they don’t even have a demo. I don’t want to buy something without trying first.
If nothing else shows up by Q3 of this year I'm strongly considering switching to Mac and getting FCP. But I will only do that as a last alternative. FCP seems to be THE most flexible and useful platform out there, even in comparison to the higher end Avids. The problem is the dongle it needs in order to work, a.k.a. a Mac :)
I think if Apple released a Windows version of FCP, the huge majority of people would use FCP and Premiere, Avid, Vegas and other PC applications would go out of business. Avid would probably still keep the higher end applications but XPP and MC would be out of the window pretty soon. But then gain Apple would also not sells any Macs anymore. :D

did someone found a way to import HDV1 25p into the 5,7
 

There must be a way to make this work. Did anyone work out something so we can start working with 25 instead of 30. My Avid runs on a PC. Any third party software... Something... new. I read at the Avid forum that with the 5,7 you can choose "recognise Varicam frames" in the capture tab and digitize HDV 24p. Did anyone try that?
Waiting waiting waiting
Panos

Can you link me to the post you read this from?

Or Avid would just be forced to drop XPP and lower the Price on the MC to FCP level, and allow 3. party hardware(not very likely...) or lower the price on their own hardware so that it can compete with the higher end 3. party hardware.

I'm in the same position, using Avid and won't go mac unless there is no other real alternative, for some reason I don't like Premiere or vegas, Liquid is ok.

I don't have 5.7, but in 5.5 there is a check for "Preserve Varicam Rates" in the capture tool. Pretty sure that it wouldn't work but I tried it anyway via firewire and of course it didn't work. The reason is that both the 720/p 24 and 720/60 project presets are looking for DVCPro HD signals coming down the firewire. So you get a "Don't recognize signal" warning each time. So unless 5.7 has changes the way it captures, I have my doubts. I think this only works with an HDV to component converter box coming into an Adrenaline with HD board. But not Firewire.


The frustration with me lies in the fact that right now when you're in a 720/30 HDV preset in capture mode with a 720/24 tape feeding via firewire, you can see the stream coming into the capture montior. You can see the footage coming in. So it sees the 720/60 stream down the pipe. It would seem that all they need to do is do the same thing that they did with the Preserve Varicam setting and capture the flags at 23.978. Apple did, Edius did, Liquid Does.

It's politics, pure and simple.

for Steve
 

Steve this is the answer from an Avid customer service guy to MikeyMic that was really angry and got so many replies to his post. He is talking about HDV1 unless he does,nt know what he is talking for... that I think also is the case:

Hi MikeyMic,

* no support for 24p non-drop even tho avid claimed they would support the hd110 camera
* My project is a 24p ntsc project...is this the first problem? should i be cutting on a normal ntsc timeline?

IMHO the 720p format provided by both JVC and Panasonic is far superior and more flexible than any other format on the market today. Case in point: Most 720p cameras have a cinema like filter that provides for richer blacks and better depth of color and detail. The one caveat to this filter is that it is only available in progressive frame rates (24p, 23.98p, etc...). It sounds as though you've already shot your material at 24p and have noticed that your Xpress Pro 5.6.4 does not have a corresponding format/project type for your tape. Here is where the flexibility of the format comes into play.

With your camera/deck attached via firewire open a 720p/59.94 project. Set your deck configuration for camera/deck control* and open up the capture tool. One new feature to Xpress Pro 5.6.4 is the "Preserve Varicam Frames" button in the Capture Tool. The way this button operates is if the button is checked the Avid will disregard the 24 frame information on your tape and capture the full 60 frames instead. This results in gorgeous fluid motion without having to worry about the 24p pulldown cadense on the tape (more than likely the cause for your video jitter). Conversely if the button is not checked during capture the resulting video will playback at a little over twice real time speed. Michael Phillips has an excellent article about this on 24p.com (http://www.24p.com/VFR.htm).

Please note this form of capturing and all forms of HDV capturing are only supported through firewire. Which means no Mojo necessary.

This information is going under the assumption that you've shot HD 24p instead of SD 24p. If this is not the case please let us know.

* Deck control is iffy at best on decks they claim to support

What deck templates have you tried to come to this conclusion? Most often times deck control issues through firewire can be attributed to one file in your Avid DIO Runtime not being registered. There is a technote about this issue at the following URL.

http://www.avid.com/onlineSupport/su...contentID=7965

* audio output to deck is not functioning

So long as your deck configuration settings are properly set up to output to your deck there should be no discrepancy in audio output. Are you able to record video to your deck/camera? If so is your deck/camera set up to capture audio on a channel other than firewire?

* why can't i do rubber band edits on an hd timeline?

Make sure that Audio Auto Gain is selected from your fast menu in the lower left hand corner of your timeline. Once that has been checked you can use the N key to insert keyframes on your audio. If the N key is not working check out your Keyboard inside your Settings tab on your main project window to see which is your keyframe key. Once you have inserted a keyframe on your audio you can adjust it up and down or hold down the ctrl+alt do ajust from left to right. For more information on rubber banding open your help menu and run a search for "rubber banding".

* no video output unless you do digital cut (makes it impossible to do color correct)

I understand the need for a broadcast monitor for acurate color correction, however Avid does offer many tools within the color correction mode for waveform monitoring. For more information on how to enable these tools, run a search in your help menu for "waveform".

Although this will alleviate the need for digital cut it is not a 100% accurate way for HD color correction. Currently the only tools that will allow you to properly color correct HD in realtime with a client monitor is the Media Composer Adrenaline HD and the Symphony Nitris which offer HD SDI and HD Component outputs.

* this is sold as an hd system...why can't i output hdv in real time? why only ntsc?

HDV (not to be confused with HD or DVCPro HD) as a format is compressed in order to fit through the firewire pipeline. Once it has reached its destination (your drives) it is then uncompressed in order for you to use it. Since the file on your drives is uncompressed it can no longer fit through the pipeline it came in on. The process of compressing and sending out HDV material to your deck in realtime would utilize far to many resources for your computer to be functional while editing. Instead we have the option for "Output to HDV Device" once you're done cutting your HDV sequence. This option is available within the 1080i/59.94 HDV and 720p/29.97 HDV projects. NTSC SD footage such as DV25 is natively small enough to easily fit through the firewire pipeline without having to compress the signal and send it out.

Let us know if this has answered your questions and if you have any other questions. We are listening and are here to help.
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I think he is talking about Varicam - DVCPRO HD.

I just tried it. Recorder some test footage with HD100 in HDV 720/24p, set up AXP at 720p/59.94 project, opened the Capture Tool with HD50 deck connected via FW. I do have a machine control but as soon as I select the video track I get "Exception: PassThroughManager ::CreateVideoPassThroughInterface cannot create PassThroughInterface" (gee, can I get paid for creating incomprehensible error messages?).

Anyway, unless this error has something to do with some other problem, the above-described workflow doesn't seem to work. Somebody enlighten me, please...

BTW, my AXP is version 5.6.3 and it does have the Preserve Varicam Frames box in the Capture Tool.

Just to add to my quick test, I tried a couple other things:

-I created a 720p/23.976 project and received the same error message
-when using 720p/29.97 HDV project Avid gives different error message - the capture was stopped because of dropped frames. Well, we know that a 24fps video has some 'missing' files in 30fps DF project.

So, as far as I am concerned, we are exactly where we've been for the last year or so...

I mispoke and vs. Preserve Varicam Rates my version 5.5 checked as Preserve Varicam Frames as well. I don't think it is a new workaround in 5.7.
DVCPro and HDV aren't the same and the only option you have for capture through Firewire on those particular presets is DVCPro HD MXF. No HDV. You have to convert IEEE 1394 to HD SDI into an Adrernaline for this to possibly work.

Panos, this guy got our hopes up,

No way
 

The above post is a guide from avid customer support to a guy like us that was trying to digitize and edit 24p footage from a JVC GY HD100...
So, it is really confusing the way they describe a workflow that is ... not ment to work. Unless we miss something, anybody else?
Panos

How About Using DVMaker as Workaround?
 

http://dvfilm.com/maker/index.htm

DVFilm is a first class operation. Maybe this product it the answer to using cameras with usupported formats in Avid.

Essentially shoot in 60i and then have DVMaker convert it into 24P. The software is $145, and if it works like claimed, it could be a useful workaround, no?

Anyone trying this?

Peter,

MPEGstreamclip http://www.squared5.com/ is sort of the main conversion utilility that we JVC ProHD owners using Avid Xpress/Media Composer rely on to get around our 720/24p issues. It's free and you pay $25 to Apple to download the MPEG 2 QT component (A lot cheaper than $145). The other problem is that you really don't want to shoot interlaced then deinterlace to progressive. You lose a lot of quality and then what's the point of shooting with a progressive camera? With the above solution you can stay in progressive all throughout your workflow until you master.
The problem we have is that it is a render intensive time consuming process.
Image wise it works fine but we would rather digitize straight into Avid with a 720/24p HDV preset. It would save us time.

Cheers

Preserve Varicam Frame Mystery
 

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/HD...amcorders.html

Note the features of the HD 250. The HD SDI out of the camera works with Varicam Flags. I think that maybe this is what the guy from Avid was referring to, except he was wrong to say you can digitize with the Preserve Varicam Frame button through Firewire. So, if you have a 250 and Adrenaline
then it looks like you have a pretty efficient 24p workflow.

Maybe Avid will announce Mojo with HD SDI?

Just wanted to reinforce what David already said. No point in having a progressive camera and shooting interlaced to deinterlace in post. It's like going back in time 5 years when we were all crazy to have a real progressive camera and using deinterlacing programs as a workaround. Now that we finally have progressive 24 frames per second cameras, shooting interlaced for deinterlacing in post makes no sense whatsoever.


So much trouble, so many workarounds and compromises. And Why? If they don’t want to support us, just let Avid go. Why being loyal to a brand that is not caring about us?

Or just get FCP instead of keep waiting for Avid’s charity.
That’s what I’m doing. Hate Macs but I’m going FCP soon.
And that’s how Avid is losing market to Apple everyday .

Michael,

I hear you. I'm with you guys, but NAB convention is only 2 weeks away and I see a possible JVC 24p workflow on MC for myself in the future.

IF... Avid releases an affordable HD SDI injest solution or HDV1 FW injest.

I've got 13 years of use and money invested in Avid interface editing. That's why it appears that I'm stupidly and stubbornly loyal to Avid when in fact I'm willing to wait a measly 2 weeks in order to give it one more chance. But I'm not stupid if it doesn't work then it's time to change.

But my future decisions are basically this. I do have plans this year to upgrade my editing suite. If Avid at NAB presents a solution that allows HDV 24p straight dig into the app. with proper pulldown or an HD SDI injest that is affordable then I'm upgrading from AXP to Media Composer. Why? Well one I already have a PC and wouldn't have to buy a MAC Pro and two, I know that once you start editing in Avid Media Composer, it is a workhorse.

However, if Avid doesn't present a workable solution for JVC 24p, then I'm with all of you guys and I will take my money put aside for Media Composer and move on down the road and transition to FCP.

Cheers.

So you'll believe them this year even if they are the same promises made two years ago? I ordered Final Cut as I think they're not interested in servicing this part of of the food chain and won't admit it.

I run a business. I cannot make emotional decisions. I will do what's best for my clients and my business. Even if a certain amount of trust has been broken.

I totally agree. That's why it's easy for me to dismiss Avid at this point in time based on their track record. Any promises they make now ring hollow as we've seen how well they keep their promises from the past. It's an easy, non-emotional decision to make the move to Final Cut which seems much more interested in servicing the market segment using HDV 1. It's a shame cause I did enjoy using Avid and will miss its rock solid media management tools.

Abandoning JVC
 

My workaround has been this:

No more JVC HD100... I had enough of trying to get this to work! ...now I shoot on Panasonic HVX200 & P2 (and plan to move to the 500 wen it is available). It is so simple to use and the quality is as good (I find both HVX200 & HD100 comparable). I know some have concerns around archiving and we have done this currently with DVD-R or HDD's (BluRay will be future of this tho)... it does take a little to get used to this idea of working...

I am also entrenched in Avid and don't want to re-invest in another platform/product.

So far we have been very successful in using 720p24 and 30. The P2 copies over quickly and is immediately available.

I now have no more worries about this, only about content!

Cheers
Paul

Hi Paul,

with the JVC ProHD I have arrived to the same place as you. Except I haven't gotten any new camera yet. I am looking at a number of solutions - Red, Panasonic AG-HPX500, XDCAM HD and even HDV2 - in this case the Sony V1 camcorder. Its 24fps mode is not supported by Avid yet but if that happens by NAB, I might just go that route.

I am using Avid on a Mac and I am curious about the P2 workflow on that platform. Is that what you are doing... and if yes what do you use for ingest, the camera or did you get the P2 Store?

Jiri

Hi Jiri,

Currently we rent the camera and the cards/drive (while our Betacam 400a sits quietly in storage) and what we do is get the P2 5 slot drive (AJ-PCD20 usb). We bring a laptop on location and transfer the footage as we go. Avid doesn't need all the other data that P2 provides (not to bad to keep it tho) so all we need to transfer is the video and audio. Once we do that it can be editing with immediately. (We are PC based but I imagine the workflow wouldn't change)

A 4 gig card takes about 4 minutes to copy over. So far, we have not lost a single shot - and we've transferred well over a terrabyte!

I would think that if you couldn't bring a laptop, then the P2Store is one way to go, particularly if you are using their native format. (It's a lot of money for 60 gb's of storage tho -$1800 usd- considering 500gb drives can be bought for cheap). I think I would rather have more cards and transfer later.

Cheers
Paul

The sad thing is, this is exactly Avid's game and what they want you to do.
I will drop Avid before I drop ProHD. There are other solutions that work with the format. I would like to go farther and say there are other even "superior" and more affordable solutions that work with ProHD. No reason for me to stay loyal to a brand that doesn’t offer me what I want. No reason to change my whole acquisition system to stay loyal to Avid. One thing I'M NOT doing is playing Avid's politics game.
Avid is bye bye for me. I'm now in a better place :)

I guess it depends upon where you are at. For us, 1) we have three Avid systems and we know how to use them, 2) our previous acquisition was betacam and that worked very well with Avid, 3) we haven't purchased our HD camera yet.

So this process has been very good for us. We know what camera works the best for our investment in Avid. (Keep in mind that when we went with Avid there was only not much to choose from, the costs were considerably higher than they are today and we knew the Avid would work - in fact our Avids hardly ever crash; I've had more crashes with FCP on a Mac than our PC Avid's). Sure there are things that I want to change, etc. but be that as it may, my choosing to not go with JVC, with whom I have no investment, and sticking with Avid, where my investnment is more than just $$$, makes the best sense.

Cheers
Paul

Interesting. We just ditched our Avid gear after 8 years. The whole HDV1 thing was the straw that broke the camel's back for us. We're nearly entirely on FCP now and I am ecstatic to report that it was an excellent decision to switch - albeit costly. Avid no longer has us in their clutches and it's quite liberating after so long.

Yes, FCP is a great tool. It was always better than Liquid or any of the lower end Avids. The only reason I was using Liquid was because I didn't want to switch to Apple. But after seeing Final Cut Studio 2 I'm fully convinced it's not worth it to stay with Avid. FCS2 leaves Liquid, Xpress and any NLE for the PC like Vegas, Premiere or Edius miles behind and gives Media Composer a big run for it's money. It actually has some features than only DS has. I'm going with FCS2 as soon as it starts shipping. No more compromises for me hehehe.

I am going to do the same. Started with Studio then Liquid 6 now up to Liquid 7.2.

I will keep my Liquid station in service but the hardware is three years old so I plan on looking for a desktop Mac/FCS2 package. Any recommendations?

Well, it's been a few months since the last post. I'd be extremely grateful if someone who has up to date info would update this thread on Avid's progress as far as hd video goes. I'm somewhat of a newbie... considering Avid... but not if the company policy is anti-hd, as it appears to be.

The update is get FCS 2 and stop suffering :)

http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/8350.html

It looks like Avid is going to concentrate its efforts on the broadcast server market and high end facilities. Anyway it doesn't bode well for small post apps.

Thanks for the info. I was this close to upgrading my pc to handle Avid Express Pro and hd footage.