Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Wow, I didn't notice those 1/4x20 holes in the top. Thanks Hurd. Caught me again :-)

The bottom line is, love it or hate it or even if you don't give a care about it, BlackMagic's cine cam has rocked the camera world, and they will sell thousands. Other manufacturers can continue to charge super high prices at their own risk, because as has also been stated, if BMD can deliver this at $3K with Resolve, what might they do in six more months or by NAB 2013? They could put a larger sensor (pick a favorite) into a metal chassis, up the bit rate to 16 and easily get $6K (Ssh, don't let them know some would pay even more!).

Exciting times with a cam like this, software like Smoke coming down to $3500 and thunderbolt all over the place.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Here's an interview about the Blackmagic camera:

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

All makes perfect sense now as far as the sensor size used. As the guy from Blackmagic said in the interview, 2.5k was the biggest picture they could record in raw to the ssd. Maybe for those who would like to see an S35 or FF35 sensor from Black magic, they may be waiting until they come up with a raid array of ssd's.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Or figure out a compression scheme like RED - but there is a heck of a lot more to this than one might guess.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

CineformRAW is better choice. SI2K at $3K will be better:)

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Do anyone know how the Iris is controled? I see an Iris button at the top left corner, is it then changed with the left/right arrow at the bottom or just by touch on screen?

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

On the blackmagic site it says about the iris controll function: "Iris button automatically adjusts the lens iris settings so no pixel is clipped"
Not sure what that means, can't be that the camera decides what the best Iris value is?

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

2.5k off a S35mm sensor should be no different from 2.5k off any other sized sensor, so I imagine it has more to do with the sheer cost of manufacturing a larger sensor.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Ahem,
Yes of course you are right Mark! I have no idea what i was thinking when i wrote that post!!

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Adam Wilt has done a 2nd report on the Blackmagic camera:

ProVideo Coalition.com: Camera Log by Adam Wilt | Founder | Pro Cameras, HDV Camera, HD Camera, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, RED, Video Camera Reviews

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

To reply to my own question above...

Quote from the above linked article:
"• The camera uses a Canon-compatible EF mount. EOS lens apertures can be adjusted using the FWD/REV transport buttons on the camera’s back panel (at present, though, there’s no iris readout on the camera; that would be another nice thing to see in the release firmware)."

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

The camera might just slot in into the niche created by dslrs and just wipe them clean. A lot of people though are comparing the Blackmagic Digital cinema camera with cameras which are more than triple it's price. I think that's unfair. This camera will only capitalize on the dslrs. Whether or not it will surpass it's hype remains to be seen.

Oh by the way, I wrote up an article of this on my blog, if anyone is interested in reading further. Please leave a comment or feedback. I need more information to quench this thirst of mine.

Fadly.M.H.Wychowvski: My take on the Black Magic Design's Digital Cinema Camera

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

I honestly don't believe that, eventhough the blackmagic is a mainly a real "filmmakers" tool while the dslr is trying to be, the only reason why one should buy a blackmagic is it's ability to shoot raw and I read here it can record only 30 min to a 256gb ssd drive in that format. While a dslr is a bear to operate in real time the blackmagic seems virtually impossible to handle in realtime situations so I see it as a tool specifically aimed at corporate, commercial or filmmakers market where you have the time to set up and operate. For filmmakers on a budget that are using a dslr now they probably will continue to use dslr's, a canon 550d f.i. has still one of the cheapest workflows (taking it's purchase price into account) to emulate that filmlook. Also for wedding videographers where dslr's are very popular they will continue to use it as a blackmagic has no benefit here. Many are tempted by it's low price point but taking its difficult workflow into account and it's big cropfactor (and you still need to invest in expensive ssd drives and external batteries) I'd say that some people will be very happy with it but it won't clean out the dslr's niche yet.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Not true at all. No camera offers native ProRes422 or DnxHD shooting right out of the box like this camera does. Sure this isn't raw which is the main focus of the camera but I know a lot of people who are just as excited to be able to have a DSLR form factor camera without the annoying compression artifacts. Raw converted to ProRes422 in the camera is going to look pretty darn good. There are a lot of people out there trying very hard to piggy back an external recorder to the HDMI port on DSLR's just to be able to get 4:2:2 color. With the Blackmagic camera shooting directly to ProRes will give you this right out of the box.

As a Panasonic GH1 user who enjoys hacking my camera there are six areas we wish we could get to with our hacks.

1. As low of compression as possible.
2. 4:2:2 color.
3. Decent audio ports with actual audio control.
4. As little of in camera sharpening as possible or at least have control over it
5. Elimination of moire and aliasing.
6. 10bit or higher color recording

The Blackmagic camera solves all of those problems with ProRes recording basically giving DSLR users what they have always wanted. I'm not 100% sure on #4 but if I had to take a guess it should look cleaner then most video cameras out of the box since it is designed to have a raw look.

Of course this doesn't mean being able to fit an hour of video on a single SDHC card but it does mean 5x the recording space compared to raw. As silly as it may seem right now I bet a lot of people wouldn't mind this at all considering what they will get out of it.

I know a lot of GH2 users who would gladly move to a GH3 if it just solved one of those areas.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Excellent summary of this camera's advantages over existing DSLR's, Thomas.

I think those points do a great job of cutting through the hype surrounding the camera and point to some specific features this unit will bring to the market that haven't been available at this price point.

Allan Barnwell
Omega Broadcast Group - Professional Video Sales, Rental & Services

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Thomas nailed many of the thoughts that I tried to put into words earlier in this thread but was not able to articulate as clearly. I paid $1500 for the ability to record ProRes to SSD with the Samurai. This basically has that built in!

I know the sensor size is odd, but once you get a few lenses and you acclimated, i think it will be a fine tool for the anyones toolkit.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

IT truly makes sense to have a M4/3 adapter with this camera, having better choice of lenses:
Nokton 25mm, 17.5mm F 0.95, Olympus 12mm, 45mm, Panasonic 17mm, 45mm IS.
Optically mentioned lenses are better than Canon L lenses, IMO and made for sensor that is similar in size.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

There are other cameras that record in ProRes the most notable being the Arri Alexa which also has the option to record in RAW although from what I read the vast majority of users shoot ProRes with the Alexa.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Does anyone know if this camera can be set to record single frames? We are looking into using it for a film printer.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

It's been about a month since this camera was announced. I know it doesn't ship until July....but has anyone seen or heard anything new regarding it? I was hoping there would be some new clips posted or some new information released by now to keep our appetites peaked.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Today is the BMD show in Burbank I expect any news to be launched from there, If there is I will post as soon as I return from the show,

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

You're headed to the show from Denver? Nice! I guess I asked this question on the right day I see!

Please post any news that you hear. I am particularly interested to confirm that the OIS on EOS lenses will work. I suspect it should....but this is a big thing for me since I will be shooting a decent amount of handheld clips.

Thanks!

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Actually headed from Ohio.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Philip,

What brings you to Ohio? Or is your profile location wrong? Also.....are you going strictly for the BMD event or do you have other business out there? Just asking as it seems like a large trip for a single manufacturer. I know I'd like to be there.

MArty

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

In Columbus taking care of family matters for an indefinite stay, commuting to LA.

Was at BMD show. Mixed feelings. Cam is very filmic, but the LCD is a joke and is far far from an accurate picture, must have external monitor. Only 45 minutes RAW on 500GB SSD. Team is really nice and well meaning guys but clearly they do not know image capture. Lots of strange decisions like omitting compressed 60p becuase they could not do it with RAW. Seem to think this is a RAW cam when most people will shoot log compressed. Jello but they say it will be better in production version. NO Image Stabilization at ship, maybe latter. Still July ship from factory but may not arrive at dealers till later, Cannot emphasize enough how awful the LCD is. Only three ISO settings, 400, 800, 1600. Only three WB settings. This is a very crippled camera.

Everyone wants RAW and sees only that, ignoring the usability of the camera and the extreme workflow and post production equipment requirements. They estimate 4-5000 preorders, and up to two month backlog at ship. I predict lots of them will go to people who ignore the real workflow and design issues and let their cameras sit on the shelf. But for those who understand what a cine camera is, and need that specialized instrument the camera will be great.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Wow. That is disappointing. I am still very interested but it seems like a lot of features are missing. I was hoping the LCD would be decent....is it not even as good as LCD on other cameras like af-100 or fs-100? I don't necessarily expect it to be 100% accurate to a field monitor but it should be at least good enough to focus and frame your scenes.

I too will be shooting primarily in a ProRes with Raw as an option when needed. WHat were your impressions of the crop factor? What lens did you see on it and how did it feel? Did it feel extremely cropped?

I am getting this camera for my narrative style work and hanging onto my XLh1 kit for more event oriented work. I considered selling my H1 and buying an af-100 or fs100, but thought BMD cam would allow me to keep the H1 and have a 2nd more "cine" style camera. Obviously these shallow DOF cameras aren't ideal for run and gun ENG type of shooting....so different tools for different jobs.

Any other thoughts? Can you elaborate on the filmic look?

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

The LCD is good only for framing. It was hard to see clearly indoors, outside would match my feeling about the LCD - pathetic. It was tellng tha mearly everyone turned to the tabletop external monitor when they played with focus. It will probably be good for focus, but do not forget that it is a touch screen that hides the controls so you loose image when you need to change settings.

On the external monitor the cam produced nice creamy images that look pretty good (hard to tell without a LUT being applied).

Forget the AF100, the GH2 hacked is much better and cheaper if you want m4/3..

They had a canon 24-105 on the camera, at f4 not the best choice for indoor demo of a cam limited to 1600ISO

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Can't find anything about using legacy lenses on this cam..? Is this basically like the GH2 where you can use any lens with the right adapter?

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Are there any cold shoes or 1/4" threads anywhere to attach things?

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

No. You can't use m4/3 or c-mount lenses (even with a 2x adapter).

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

I love the idea of this camera, and I love what this idea is going to do the industry in general. I've been in the industry for a while now and when I started, shooting indy films was not affordable given that if you wanted that cinema look you had to get a 35mm camera and a few rolls of film. Your other option was a DVCAM and even that was 6K or more. It's a good time to be film maker, an even better time for the guys and gals getting out of film school. This reminds me of the film revolution of the early 1900s, maybe the Golden Age of cinema will make a return.

That being said, I'm stuck on what camera to start off with. I've been doing post for almost a decade now and haven't even thought of shooting a short until now. My original choice was the Nikon D800, but being that the BMDC is the same price and actually produces a very film like image I'm now torn on which direction to go. The DSLR offers full frame functional versatility but less cinema like and more artifacts (moire, aliasing), the BMDC offers very cinema like high dynamic images in RAW format but lacks in functions. I like the internal SSD recorder, but the Nikon can use a Ninja 2...BMDC has no 60fps and no timelapse, DSLR does....flexible functionality or pretty 2.5k high dynamic image....tough.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

I wouldn't put too much reliance on the camera, the key parts lie elsewhere. Believe me, the camera is the easy bit.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Though the camera isn't everything, it sets limits and defines which lenses you need. And that defines how much light you need. And weight, rolling shutter, and image stabilization define the grip gear you need. In other words, it's an important choice and one that must be made.

In deciding, it's good to know what one will shoot and what one's preferred style might be. From Tony's post, he certainly wants a big sensor cam for a 35mm look. Then again, as a post guy, he knows the value of RAW for color correction.

I'd recommend figuring out a lens set. On a crop DSLR, the 17-55/2.8 IS is a great place to start. It goes from moderate wide to tele with f/2.8 speed and includes stabilization. Lens choices aren't as straightforward for the BMC. Soon, there will be a Mosaic Engineering anti-aliasing filter for the 7D, so that's a consideration.

The big difference between a DSLR and shooting RAW is that you really want to get your lighting and exposure on the mark with DSLRs - as well as your use of settings such as picture styles. And that's not a bad skill to have. One reads about the advantage of changing the look in post, but I personally find that I have a vision for the look before I ever start, and if I'm serious I do some tests. It's not like I'll shoot a romantic comedy and want to change it to a dark green look any more than I'd do a vampire film in pastels.

But there are limits. If the goal is to really push the colors, the BMC could be the ticket - assuming you can build a good lens set for it.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Any basic starting lens package should coincide with the three basic coverage angles in cinema right? The Long shot, the medium shot, and the close up. So i was thinking three Nikon primes, a wide angle (20mm), a medium angle (50mm) and a long or telephoto (85mm). Of course comes the argument of whether to go zoom or prime. Figuring that the BMC is a 16mm equivalent sensor camera that uses full frame lenses, a zoom would probably be more flexible when dealing with the crop?

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

A 20mm, 50mm, and 85mm would be a wide/medium/tele on a full frame camera. (I'd highly recommend 24mm or 28mm for a normal wide however for FF.) Going off of sensor widths, the crop factor of the BMC is 2.28 (or 0.44.) That means you'd be looking at something like a 11mm, 22mm, and a 37mm lens kit for the BMC. You could do an f/2.8 zoom kit with the Tamron 11-17 and the Canon 17-55 IS. In fact, that would get you to an equivalent of 125mm, which is a nice closeup length.

If you want faster lenses (and you might if you want shallow DOF), replace the 17-55 with the 24/1.4L and 35/1.4L. Add a fast 50mm for true closeups.

Then again, one might want to look at 16mm or 4/3rds lenses and adapters to see if there are good options there. One nice thing about using 35mm glass is that the smaller sensor will only see the center, sweet spot of the lens. Falloff and corner softness won't be an issue. However, the pixels are smaller, so you'll want sharp glass.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

I like the BMCC and seriously thought about pre-ordering one, but I wound up getting a FS100 to replace my 5d2. The FS100 has 11 ISO steps from 500 on up, real XLR inputs, records to ridiculously cheap SD cards and uses plentiful Sony batteries that can give you a full days shooting on just one if you get the NFP-970. You also have lots of frame rate and resolution options and the ability to shoot just 1fps for easy-peasy time lapses. The crop factor is only 1.5, so my 16-50 has a FOV equal to 24-70. The E-mount is easy to adapt pretty much any lens on the planet. The 6 available picture profiles are so customizable its overwhelming, so I cheat and use a few that others have developed. I bought mine used with 3 hours of recording time on it for far less than full retail. I can get 4:2:2 color space with an external recorder, though its only 8-bit. The low light capabilities of the FS100 really sold me on the camera, its just so clean at 6400, I can't imagine the d800 being any better and it completely spanks the 5d2. I love the image from the BMCC, but to kit it out would easily eclipse what I have into my FS100 since you need to run external batteries, SSD's and I still have questions about the quality of audio. Just my two cents...

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

We pretty much mirror your thinking Chris.
Even as a small shop we have a pretty wide range of week to week creative challenges, but everything we write and produce whether TV spots, docs, promos or web content is narrative with a 35mm style going back to the original P&S mini35.

I'm tired of using different cameras to cover our needs and really hoped that Canon would do something other than the 1D-C to add 60p 1080. I can't justify 30k for a pair of them with the number of limitations they still have.

Both the 1D-C and BM will be great for specific roles, but I think we're in a similar situation to a lot of shops that produce their own work exclusively. Today, 2012, there are finally a few options for cameras that can be on set or location, fully loaded and tethered, and the next week shooting back country from a snowmobile or following doc subjects around the world.

We don't need 4k we need great 1080p recorded in camera for lots of work with the option of better color space for other work. And we need variable frame rates to at least 60p for lots of work.

And that camera needs the full set of functions that DSLRs just don't...including the 1D-C

In this regard, with all things considered, the FS100 just made too much sense. For all the things you mention and more, a pair of these cameras would be too good a deal even at 10k each.
At 5k each it's the best camera concept on the market.
And we keep our 5Ds which creates a wealth of acquisition options when you need them but aside from the Alexa, the FS100 (and FS700) offers the best all in one option for a lot of creative shops.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

The thing is there's all types of filming out there. Cinema, documentary, event, ect... For the professional who does a bit of everything, a camera like the AF100 or the FS100 are great. But expensive, both cameras without lens are over 4k and to be able to get the flexibility in lenses you need to get an adapter which are very expensive. But, it's still damn affordable for a pro videographer looking for a do all camera. How about guys who only want to do film projects? Don't need half the stuff thats on those cameras, even with the on board xlr and supplied mic, the built in preamp still doesn't cut it ,so a external recorder will eventually be bought anyway. Handle, grip, zoom toggle, shoulder bad, built in nd filters, view finder, high iso...not really needed for a film shoot. A doc and event shooting hell yeah, definitely needed, but not for film. On a film shoot you do have some time to properly set things up, so all you need is a little box that shoots video. Thats why cameras like the Arri and Red are nothing but paper weights. Cost wise, most film makers, like any artist probably don't make a lot of income from their projects if any, so budget is a real concern. Thats why a camera like the BMC is making big waves with indy film makers, to provide excellent film like image quality for such a low price is exactly what we wanted. Only problem with this camera is the sensor, it's far too limiting. You'll be getting the same look with all your project, which is fine if you only do one type of genre. A DSLR with the full frame and endless lens choices will still give you more freedom to manipulate your shot to how you want. Because seriously for a film maker all you need is a good sensor in a box.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

It's all about perspective, but for anyone producing professionally for years, these cameras are dirt cheap.
Our Canon XL2 s with mini35s cost about 20k each without lenses. We're not videographers, don't do any events or video, we shoot 35mm film style with extensive lighting even for outdoor action work. There's no real downside or pigeonholing a camera like the FS100.

I'd argue that any film maker needs a lot more than a senor in a box. That film maker needs all of the things on and in an Alexa or Epic or FS100 whether they come rigged or are rigged for the shoot. And many of the controls not in the BM can't be rigged, they're just missing features.

For small shops flexibility is key, so having cameras that can shoot without extensive rigging when necessary or be tethered to a Hyperdeck and large monitor etc. is simply better than one that is simply a box.

It's impossible to know anything until there's a real BMC production model, but seeing the shrinking list of flexibility, crop issues, poor screen, limited frame rates etc. our enthusiasm for the BM for anything other than rigged studio work simply abated.

8 bit codec aside (and it's being lauded by most everyone that's used it) the FS100 is the closest thing to an Alexa or Epic on the market in many essential ways for day to day film production. And having three of them for a fraction of the cost of the others is amazing for any film makers shooting 1080p which almost all of us are...those of us getting paid to do it.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

What about a FS700 with all of the good things of a FS100 but with more resolution, better color, less low light banding and built in ND filters? The ideal rig is an F7100/700 and a BM Cinema camera.