HD content burned onto a standard DVD playable with either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Players?
 

Does any one know if HD content burned onto a standard DVD can be played on either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray players?

Take a burned DVD to BestBuy and, like a prospective buyer, ask them to test your DVD on their player :)

I have done this.

Here was my workflow. I exported my FCP timeline into compressor and created an H.264 file. This preserves the 1280x720 content. It took my Intel DuoCore about 2 days to encode a 90 minute movie.

I then used DVD StudioPro 4.0 and selected "HD DVD" in the settings and then did everything else the same way as normal DVD i.e. chapter index, menues ect.

I used a DL DVD because the file was still pretty large, about 6GB.

This so called "HD-DVD" burned onto a standard DVD disk only plays back on Mac computers. It plays back perfectly w/ fully functional menus ect.

I then visited 3 different stores. Circuit City, Best Buy and Fry's. I told them the truth, I wanted to test this burned HD-DVD and if it worked, I would recommend their HD-DVD player to my clients.

Results:

Blu-Ray DVD players will not play the disk at all.

HD-DVD players will display the Menu but it won't function. I managed to get the disk to play but I could only hear audio. No picture.

You probably just need to burn the content to a true HD-DVD or Blu-Ray instead of cheating (burning HD content to a regular DVD).

I'm waiting for the Blu-Ray burners to come down in price before I try this again.

When I do get my Blu-Ray burner, I won't bother with H.264 encoding. The larger capacity of Blu-Ray will allow you to encode HD content using the "HD Mpeg-2" preset. You won't need to compress it so heavily.

Interesting test, Scott. Wow, it took you two days to encode 90 minutes to H.264, on a Core Duo, no less? You have a lot of patience!

You said that the DVD you created could only be played on Macs. What software did the playback?

While I can definitely understand that from a time perspective (two days to encode 90 minutes is ridiculous!), as far as compressing heavily is concerned, H.264 is just as good as MPEG-2 at a half to two thirds of MPEG-2's bitrate.

If anything comes of the rumblings that GPU’s might be able to provide a huge boost encoding video, however, we might see the time required to encode H.264 video drop dramatically. I sure hope so. It’s just so agonizingly slow right now.

Accidental second post.

The Mac used "DVD Player" to play the HD-DVD. The program comes standard on all Macs, nothing special there. Just pop it in and it plays automatically.

I love H.264, my online demo clips use it. We just need to find a faster way of encoding it. I would like to hear more about the GPU support.
Maybe Compressor 3 will have it?

I think this has more to do with Apple's DVD Studio Pro only working with the early preliminary specs for the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray discs right?[and having a "bug" in it so it doesn't work on the set top players right now]

I don't think it is "cheating" at all. :-)

To me, it seems like a real selling point for HD-DVD in that you can make HD-DVD's[albeit with shorter running times and heavier compression] and burn them on regular red laser 4.7gigs or DL DVD's right now with the equipment they have.

Can't wait till everything settles down.

First the GPU developers will need to get the feature working before software developers can build applications that take advantage of the feature. And, it might not work with your current video card. You might have to upgrade. Currently it appears that ATI is the one that is mainly working on video encoding (or maybe they are just making the most noise).

Links to more information:

ATI Delivers GPU-Accelerated Video Transcoding
ATI's Avivo Platform - H.264 Decode and Transcode Acceleration on R5xx

Currently the fastest H.264 encoding can be achieved with PowerEncoder MPEG-4 AVC Edition. I've seen a report that it achieved near-realtime performance on a Pentium D 820. And, the quality was said to match Apple's H.264 codec. Unfortunately, the application is Windows only.

Right, but if it's a question of taking two days to encode a finished video versus a few hours and the resulting quality looks about the same to most viewers, which option would you choose for most projects?

FYI, I've tested the Canopus "Speed Encoder" and confirmed that it can generate HD MPEG2 output in near real time on a modest dual-core computer. That's what I plan to use for HD delivery unless the quality falls noticeably short of other options, or I need to cram a whole lot of video on a blue-laser disc.

Like I said, I would definitely understand the decision to use MPEG-2 from a time perspective. It just sounded to me like he was concerned about more heavily compressing H.264 video, which isn't a concern unless you compress it to less than one third the bit rate of MPEG-2.

And those of us on the PC can achieve near-realtime H.264 encoding right now with PowerEncoder MPEG-4 AVC Edition. Of course, it is a $50 investment, but if one needs that kind of speed, it can be obtained for H.264 encoding.

I agree that it should be possible to burn HD-DVD to standard DVD's. In fact, it is one of Apple's big selling points with their software. They brag that you don't need new hardware to burn HD-DVD's, only problem is, they only playback on Macs!

DVD Studio Pro 4.0 was released before these HD-DVD players were even released which is probably why they don't work. Why doesn't apple fix this bug with an update patch?


Another question, why don't they make a Mac version of the H.264 speed encoding? This real time sounds too good to be true. Is it single pass?

I don't know why the company doesn't release the program for the Mac. But as for as the near real-time encoding being too good to be true, there is a demo of the program available (though it is version 1.0 and PowerEncoder is currently at version 1.5).

Note that the near-real time compression was from standard definition MPEG-2 source files. I don't know how fast PowerEncoder would be encoding HD material to H.264. Given how slow other encoders are converting SD material to H.264, however, it stands to reason PowerEncoder is still probably a good deal faster even with HD.

And yes, I'm sure it is single pass. Even at that, however, it sounded like it was good quality. But you don't have to take anyone's word for it, as there is the demo available.

Thanks!

I decided to encode an HD-Mpeg2 file this time instead of H.264. Good news is compressor says it will only take 6hrs for HDMpeg-2 instead of 20hrs w/H264.

I plan to burn another HD-DVD disk and see if it will play on a real HD DVD player. I'm hoping the "HD-Mpeg2" file will make the difference with regard to compatability this time around. I'll let you know how it works.

Supposedly an HD MPEG2 encoded HD-DVD from DVDSP (wow, what a mouthful) works in Toshiba HD-DVD players.

HD DVD support for HDV content
 

We have been trying to get Microsoft/Toshiba to officially add in support for HDV, AVCHD, to the HD DVD players. Sony has made this part of BD to support their AVCHD camcorders. MS/TOSH are mainly focused on Hollywood content, and so far there is not a lot of enthusiasm for formally supporting HD content on red laser dvd's. Don't know if anyone visits the AVScience forum, but there is a thread on creating red dvd's for HD DVD players, and a forum for ask the insiders.

Sharyn

I just got back from testing my HD-DVD at Best Buy. The problems with the menus remain, they don't function.

Pressing Stop & Start bypasses the menu & the movie actually plays back perfectly in HD but there is no sound! The H.264 disk I burned had the opposite problem, I could hear the sound but no video.

It's just too buggy right now. I would wait and burn HD to a blu ray or HD DVD disk when they come down in price.

Trying to cheat by burning HD content to standard DVD media just isn't going to cut it for professionals with paying clients.

But note that this has apparently worked fine for some videographers for a while now using the Avel-type DVD players and HD content compressed in Windows Media format. It's not a very elegant solution because you don't get standard DVD menus, but you can play the content just fine using a simple file menu access system.

What are "Avel type" DVD players?

Scott: see this link -

http://www.divx.com/products/hw/browse.php?c=7

These are special DVD players which can play high-definition content from red-laser discs in Windows Media format (and possibly others). The catch is that you don't get traditional DVD-style menus; you just put the video on the disc as a data item and access it through a simple computer-like onscreen menu. Do a search on these forums and you should find more about this option, which is basically a compromise until HD-DVD and Blu-ray become more mainstream.

A quick Google just now tells me that the Toshiba only reads HD-DVDs with MPEG2, not H264.

Yes, I am aware of that. That is why I encoded this latest HD-DVD w/ Mpeg2 compression. It did playback video but with no sound. This appears to be a software issue w/ DVD Studio Pro 4.0

This software came out before the HD-DVD players so there was no testing for compatability.

Just found this link

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=304086

This might explain why I couldn't hear the audio on my HD-DVD.

Apparently if you use an Intel Mac to encode Dolby 2.0 (AC-3) audio, it won't work.

This only applies to HD-DVD projects. Regular DVD projects work fine with Dolby 2.0 (AC-3).

The solution is to use uncompressed PCM audio.

I'll try this next time I burn an HD-DVD.

HDV for HD-DVD is working
 

There is a thread on authoring to HD-DVD disks on standard 4.7gb red laser DVD or dual layer at the AVSFORUM.COM located in the HD-DVD software discussion, a sticky at the top. I can confirm it's working. The tools are basic but relatively inexpensive.

In nutshell, you need Womble MPEG Video Wizard or MPEG2VCR to transcode (no rendering) from m2t transport stream or other format to mpeg2 program stream. At that point, the mpeg can be loaded into Ulead Movie Factory 5 which then authors the video much like a regular DVD with chapters and simple menus, without rendering. The final step requires Nero version 7.2 or Roxio to burn the HVDVD_TS folder to disk. You select the checkbox for X-Box compatibility mode.

I have the Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player and the above procedure if carefully followed according to the steps listed in the AVSFORUM thread really does work 100%

I also use the aforementioned I-O Data AVeL LinkPlayer2 which in most respects is a much more flexible networked and friendly way to stream out files to your HDTV monitor for previewing, and works with many formats like WMV9, Divx, AVI, and others. The LinkPlayer is much less expensive, and now carried in stock locally by some Comp-USA stores, a real shocker to me since I never thought it would achieve mainstream distribution. The picture quality between the Toshiba HD-A1 and I-O Data AVeL LinkPlayer 2 is overall about equal if you do the "filter mod" described on page 13 of the LinkPlayer FAQ sticky at AVSFORUM.COM under the section for SD-DVD players. What I'm comparing however is not one for one, since after the filter mod the 720p or 1080i component output of the LinkPlayer is superior to the Toshiba component output which is mediocre at 1080i and abysmal at 720p. The LinkPlayer is much better (after the filter mod), so much so the output compares favorably to the HDMI output from the Toshiba A1. On that count, the Toshiba 1080i HDMI will enjoy a very slight edge in picture quality over the I-O Data 720p/1080i component output, but again the Toshiba 720p even from the HDMI is very soft, even said to be derived by downsampling the 1080 interlaced lines to 540, effectively throwing away 1/2 the resolution, before resampling to 720 vertical lines. It certainly appears that way. But as long as you have a monitor that accepts 1080i well, you will enjoy excellent picture quality from the Toshiba over its HDMI.

For a client, authoring a mpeg2 file to HD-DVD video probably makes more sense in the long run than making them buy a LinkPlayer. The Toshiba is seemingly strict about what it requires to make it play your home brews, but for the end user it's much more simple and robust than the extremely versatile but quirky LinkPlayer which is more suited to a committed computer geek. The HD-DVD player would seem an easier sell to the client since once he's finished viewing his wedding videos, he's able to use it into the future for Hollywood HD-DVD titles, and you are able to provide a simple menu structure and chapters.

This will all get sorted out as better software tools become available, and HD-DVD and Blu-Ray burning hardware. But for now, you can get it done on the HD-DVD format using regular DVD media.

**Success**

I’ve finally got this damn HD-DVD thing working. I got it to work on the Toshiba A1 HD-DVD player.

Here is what you do if you are using Final Cut Studio….

Encode your video timeline with Compressor “HD Mpeg-2 30min 19Mbps” preset. Make sure to change the frame rate to 59.97. The default is 50 which won’t work.

Encode your audio from FCP as an AIFF file. (Do not use Compressor to make it Dolby 2.0 or AC3) just leave it uncompressed.

Use DVD Studio Pro 4.0 and switch the preset to HD-DVD. Import your video & audio assets as usual and create your chapter markers. Don’t bother with menus. They don’t work on HD-DVD players. Just set your video asset as “First Play” and delete the top menu.

This works perfectly.

2 drawbacks to this method. You can’t use DVD menus, but this shouldn’t be that big of a deal since your chapter makers will allow you to skip ahead in the movie.

Second drawback is DVD capacity. A Dual Layer DVD 8.5 GB will only hold about 50 min. of HD footage so you will need to split your videos across 2 disks if you go over.

Hope this helped! It took a lot of trial & error!

Scott: can you elaborate on what hardware you used? i.d. which computer, which dvd burner ... thanks.

Great job, and thanks for the heads up. [I hope Apple secretly rolls HD-DVD support in the next version of iDVD in 2007].

Now, the big question is...will Blu-Ray players support HD content burned on regular red laser DVDs?

My Intel Imac's internal DVD burner. Nothing special there.

I tried it on Blu-Ray, it won't even recognize it as a DVD. For now, it only works on HD-DVD players.

This whole format war really sucks for the consumer and content producers.[Ad naseaum] But it is so true.

Ever since I got my 16:9 tube HDTV back in 2002, I've been waiting for a hi-def movie player of some sort.

D-VHS was interesting...but the player and movies were both expensive and limited in terms of selection. However, if the studios had supported it, I would have gotten one.[This is from a LaserDisc fan that has probably more than $4,000 worth of LD's --forty bucks a pop x 100 discs]

As of now I'm waiting to buy the next generation DVD player.

HD-DVD is more affordable. And one can make HD-DVD's now on regular old 4.7 gigs DVD-R's. A big selling point for me. All I need is the HDDVD player and a HDV camcorder. But, without "studio support", I'm afraid I will be stuck with a player without the movies I really want.

As for Blu-Ray--they have some great movies that I want but the only player currently available is from Samsung at $1,000! And it won't play home grown HD on red laser DVD-R's. Even if they drop the price down to $499 to match the HD-DVD players, I would still like the HD on red laser DVD-R capability.

I can't afford to buy both players, so I will either wait, or "gamble" on HD-DVD sometime this Christmas.

Most people will wait, I imagine.

Actually all HD-DVD movies use VC1 for their compression which is why they look so much better than Blu-ray movies right now. I'm not sure if VC1 can be made from an Apple computer or not but that is the best format to use on HD-DVD right now. I'm not sure if H264 is exactly the same thing as AVCHD either. The psecs sayd mpeg2, VC1 and AVCHD but no mention of H264. Maybe H264 is the same as AVCHD but I'm sure there may just be a tiny difference that makes the HD-DVD player not recognize the video content.

VC1 is a form of WMV compression that has to be formatted the right way.

As for authoring, HD-DVD does not use the usual form of authoring as DVD did. The new authoring structure uses XML and is an open format. You can get the specs from Microsoft and really you could author a HD-DVD with a text editor if you knew exactly what to do. I would have thought if DVD Studio Pro says it can create a HD-DVD that it would have actually used the XML format for the aurthoring but it looks like it is more of a hack right now since the specs were not finalized when DVD Studio Pro came out. If the XML structure isn't in DVD Studio Pro then even if you could burn to a HD-DVD you would still have the same problem with the menus not working.

The only program I know of at this stage that creates the actual XML structure is the cheaper DVD program from Ulead.

Speaking as someone who would very much like to have an HD player for my HDTVs, count me as one more person who is opting to wait this mess out. I'm not spending my hard-earned money until there's more support at the authoring end, lower prices, and a better indication of how this is going to play out with the movie studios. Having two competing formats could thwart HD adoption for years to come, and cost both sides in this battle a lot of money compared to if they'd gotten together and agreed on a single option. In the meantime, widescreen SD DVDs work fine for me and most people I know.

Thanks to Sony and Toshiba for effectively killing HD - nice going, geniuses.

I own the Toshiba A1 HD-DVD player, but not a single HD-DVD Hollywood title. For me, it is just another tool along with the I-O Data AVeL LinkPlayer2 to display HDV video on an HDTV monitor.

It's only a few simple steps to get from native HDV to HD-DVD, without re-encoding. Playback via the HDMI connector cannot be beat.

So I don't really care how the war turns out. Blu-Ray needs interoperability and HD-DVD needs studio support. Neither one wins without both, so most people remain on the sidelines.

I'm really enjoying the HD-DVD player though.

It is a mess

AFAIK

VC1 for consumers is probably going to happen, and burning red dvd's with hd content is also likely to continue to be supported in the HD DVD camp. AVCHD support is NOT likely

On the BD side of things I think Sony will push that AVCHD as the only way to go for red laser hd content on dvd , even thought VC1 is supported in the format.

Fun fun fun

Sharyn

One key thing to keep pushing for is to get Microsoft to make the HD DVD addon for the xBOX 360 work on the PC. From all the discussions it seems to be more of just getting them to do it, and of course not stepping on Hp and the other people who are looking at bringing to market drives at a bit higher price point.

IF the HD DVD addon were working on the pc then I think the Studios would look at the vast potential base there in addition to Xbox and standalone players as significantly higher than all the PS3 hype

Sharyn

Do you mean 59.94?
What was your original timeline??

Has anyone tried using a Mac Mini as an HD DVD player connected to a Plasma or LCD?
If that works that is probably the best way to show HD DVDs with chapters.
I am going to the Apple store tomorrow to try an HD DVD out.

I looked into that but found that the current high-end Mac Mini barely meets the recommended specs for 720p playback and is a hair short of the specs for 1080p. User reports seem to be more encouraging that that, but it's still $799 for the good Mac Mini versus as little as $599 already for a Blu-ray player and less than that for HD-DVD.

I am thinking more of showing my work in HD DVD with chapters at Bridal Shows and in the office.
I wouldn't buy it to see HD movies. It is too early to decide on format, but I want to sell HD since I already have the cameras and charge more for it.
I have customer that bought the HD packages and they want their videos in HD now.
I was thinking that if the Mini works then I can sell it included in a package.

I have the Toshi HD player and DVDSP and a Hi-Def project. I am going to try and see if this works myself but I also have my G5 with DVI out into a Panny HD 720 projector so if the Mac is better at playing HD-DVD I could just send it out through the DVI-HDMI and see how that works. My question would be if sending out an HD project using 59.94 means that it's not a 24p dvd. Does the project have to be a 60p because I understand that 720p24 is the only format that is not a video format and that is what my project is. Oh well, testing, testing.
By the way, all of my older SD DVD's look unbelievable on the Toshi-HD-DVD player. When I make a comparison with a standard player, most of them will show dancing macro-blocks in the darker areas of a scene, whereas the HD player somehow rids it-self of this artifact. You could show most SD films and 99% of the public would no doubt believe you if you said it was HD. How do the HD-DVD's look? Fuhgettaboutit!